Joined: Nov 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 3,266 Location: Poe-land
Re: Polish military victories and unfallen heroes « Reply #30 on Feb 5, 2008, 6:15pm »
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Stubborn pollock!!!! If I had a dollar for every time I've heard that I could retire!
The reason poland exists today is because of stubborn, hard-headed, and uncompromising polish. Through partition, nazis, communism, and tzars. The polish never lost sight of who they were as a people. remember, all our "conquerors " are gone and the polish remain
Unfortunately, I must disagree. Long ago Poles lost a pretty lot of their sight.
The same stubborness you are talking about was the reason why Poland fell prey to foreign powers 200 years ago.. Poles were so stubborn in selling out their motherland that even foreign diplomats (Russian), who used to corrupt Polish political elite, were amazed at the scale.
Under partitions the tide reversed and the Polish elite (most of it) started trying stubbornly to regain independence. But it was too late.....
That`s a nicely twisted history of Poland.
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Thats why I think my polish ancestry is pretty kick ass!
Re: Polish military victories and unfallen heroes « Reply #31 on Feb 5, 2008, 6:47pm »
So what happened 200 years ago? could you explain? What was lost? Could it be the reason my great grandfather left poland in 1890? We may eventually differ on opinion but I see that you tend to have your facts straight.
Joined: Nov 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 746 Location: Valparaiso, Indiana U.S.A.
Re: Polish military victories and unfallen heroes « Reply #32 on Feb 5, 2008, 6:56pm »
uncltim,
Your Granfather, like my Grandparents, came here, since the streets were lined with gold, they were told, and they wanted a better place to grow. Most of them did make out well, and stayed.
Joined: Nov 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 3,266 Location: Poe-land
Re: Polish military victories and unfallen heroes « Reply #36 on Feb 6, 2008, 4:05am »
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So what happened 200 years ago? could you explain? What was lost? Could it be the reason my great grandfather left poland in 1890? We may eventually differ on opinion but I see that you tend to have your facts straight.
I don`t have time to reapeat everything in full detail. It has been written in the forum here and there, and will again surface one day.
In short: Poles lost their country to partitions because they procurred it themselves.
1. They sold Poland out to foreign kings, with Russian tsarina topping the list. Corruption was happily welcomed not only by minor politicians but top Polish aristocratic elite too.
2. When corrupted, Poles broke Parliament sessions to prevent the introduction of reforms and those non-corrupted agreed to it in the name of the so-called " golden liberty"
3. Poles refused to pay taxes to increase the army and military expenditure. They prefered when foreign armies stationed in Poland.
4. When the real wars started and independence was at stake, they didn`t want to fight, prefered to look after their farms, or even worse, betrayed the legal king and agreed for a foreign one (The Deluge - fiom and book about the treason by the Polish gentry).
After the last partition, they started fighting at last, but it was too late. The country was poor and peasants, a natural supply of recruits to every army, were primitive slaves of their landlords.
That`s a historical pill for the time being. We will return to it one day.
Joined: Nov 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 3,266 Location: Poe-land
Re: Polish military victories and unfallen heroes « Reply #37 on Feb 6, 2008, 4:09am »
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I cant help but detect note of bitterness in the last two posts. Is this a common theme in this forum? Maybe I am just naive.
Some people can get bitter, indeed But it is a medicine for sheepish pathos and bombastic Polish patriotism of others.
You see, Tim, there must be balance in nature. Some guys take delight in bombastic pathos, others take delight in bitterness. But they all remain patriotic at the same time.
Such are paradoxes in this forum.
If you think you can get used to it and bear it in the future too, I can say it again: Welcome to the club.
Re: Polish military victories and unfallen heroes « Reply #38 on Feb 6, 2008, 4:23am »
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So what happened 200 years ago? could you explain? What was lost? Could it be the reason my great grandfather left poland in 1890? We may eventually differ on opinion but I see that you tend to have your facts straight.
In short: Poles lost their country to partitions because they procurred it themselves. They sold Poland out to foreign kings, with Russian tsarina topping the list and when the war started and independence was at stake, they didn`t want to fight .
A perfect summation of the occupants point of view! In other words it is the explanation of a murderer why he had to murder. A more balanced point of view is somewhere here too, I am sure! In short - Poland was partitioned because she had a political system of liberty while the neighbours had systems of extreme authoritarianism. The Western Europe has reached this system of liberty Poland had in 18 th century many many decades later. Eastern Europe - never. If you are smart, Tim, you'll be able to make EVEN Pawian present the balanced view! Just as I was able to make him present Polish unfallen heroes and military victories, though it took some time and effort In spite of his bitterness and self-flagellation he is a great patriot and in good sense. Good luck!
Joined: Nov 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 3,266 Location: Poe-land
Re: Polish military victories and unfallen heroes « Reply #39 on Feb 6, 2008, 9:16am »
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In short: Poles lost their country to partitions because they procurred it themselves. They sold Poland out to foreign kings, with Russian tsarina topping the list and when the war started and independence was at stake, they didn`t want to fight .
A perfect summation of the occupants point of view!
Hey, you are getting too emotional. But it is natural, you are a woman, and you can be excused.
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In short - Poland was partitioned because she had a political system of liberty while the neighbours had systems of extreme authoritarianism. The Western Europe has reached this system of liberty Poland had in 18 th century many many decades later.
So, we can suggest that Poles made an experiment - in the world fraught with absolutistic monarchies and tyranical rulers, liberal and liberty-loving Poles introduced a new system. (of course, we are talking now about gentry and aristocracy - 10% of the population, while the rest were poor or enslaved with no rights whatsoever)
What was the result of the experiment? Poland disappeared from the map for 123 years. hahahahahahahahahaha
Livio, again you abstrahujesz od punktu odniesienia. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. If you live in the gangsters`world, you mustn`t behave like a gentleman.
Bigger fish eat smaller fish, and history is based on this truth. It is cruel but it happened thousands times in the past.
If Poles allowed their country to be a small fish, they shouldn`t complain that they were eaten.
Isn`t it simple????
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If you are smart, Tim, you'll be able to make EVEN Pawian present the balanced view! Just as I was able to make him present Polish unfallen heroes and military victories, though it took some time and effort
Hey, you are seeing things. Why women are so influenced by their own illusions???? hahahaha It seeems some inborn feature!
It is enough that a man smiles, sends an appreciative look or writes back a post to a woman, she starts imagining things, e.g., choosing a wedding dress or thinking what kind of father he will be to her children.
Livio, don`t make such mistake. hahahahahaha
I wrote one post about Polish victory over Rus neighbours in Kiev in 1018 but it didn`t mean anything apart from signifying the historical fact that it was Poles who started wars in the East as first. All later military brawls that we had with Russians were a consequence of Polish attempts to conquer the East.
My second post was about the January Uprising. I thought that pictures which I added to the text had an obvious meaning: that Poles were romantic fools who were unable to calculate the real odds.
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In spite of his bitterness and self-flagellation he is a great patriot and in good sense. Good luck!
Of course I am a patriot. But not the sheepish bombastic one like many others. I am a strict patriot - as an educated Pole I am aware of all Polish vices, faults and shortcomings and I am going to speak them out whenevr I feel the need, until Poles understand why certain things happened to Poland in the past and are happening still now.
Did you understand my point of view or will I have to repeat it again in the future?
Re: Polish military victories and unfallen heroes « Reply #40 on Feb 6, 2008, 10:32am »
Bored with Polish successes but obviously not bored with defeats. You might be as well a product of foreign propaganda from the old times. Or maybe you are weak and you let your mind be poisoned with points of view dimishing your morale and self-esteem greatly? But it is natural, you are only a male, and you can be excused. As long as you don't look for compensation in too freaky ways. Or in a typically manly manner you don't incite another world conflict. Men seem to have it this way, they like to look for compensation. And let themselves be carried away by own illusions of being so exceptional. It is enough that a woman smiles, sends an appreciative look to a man, he starts imagining things, thinks he's so unique, intelligent and interesting, and runs to buy an engagement ring. They must be nuts to think a woman would like to discuss, with an exemplar which passes the ideas presented through the gender filter. So, to make a long story short - I don't see too many points to agree with you in the partition subject. Cheap self-flagellation which does nothing good because it presents only one side of the story. Exactly as in another thread we discussed. And exactly as in yet another thread with bombastic exclamations about 'a bunch of Polish fools' dying for their motherland. A great mission to improve Poles in the forum where there're four or five Poles. But you are entitled to your opinions and repeating them whenever you can't hold them anymore. Sorry, no smiles. I have a headache.
Joined: Nov 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 3,266 Location: Poe-land
Re: Polish military victories and unfallen heroes « Reply #42 on Feb 6, 2008, 1:04pm »
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Bored with Polish successes
Hmm, where do you get such suppositions from? As far as I remember, I was bored with topics concerning Polish martyrology, not successes.
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but obviously not bored with defeats.
No, I am not bored with defeats. I am fascinated with them, especially those when Poles could win their fight but didn`t due to various reasons, mainly their mess, laziness, lack of courage, reluctance to endure one more effort. I imagine myself acting in their times and in their shoes, fighting hard to the end because I am so fakin stubborn and I always wonder why their fire in the pan got burnt out so easily.
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You might be as well a product of foreign propaganda from the old times.
Again you are getting emotional in your choice of arguments. Can`t you really find more reasonable ones?
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Or maybe you are weak and you let your mind be poisoned with points of view dimishing your morale and self-esteem greatly?
hahahahaha What is it, some sort of psychoanalysis? I know that women like doing such things on men. Do you perform such tests on your husband? hahahahahaha
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But it is natural, you are only a male, and you can be excused. As long as you don't look for compensation in too freaky ways.
hahahahahaha What is a proper way of looking for compensation according to you? Writing in the forum is improper? hahahahaha
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Men seem to have it this way, they like to look for compensation.
Yes, it is true. Men like conflicts in which they can test themselves. hahahaha I think it is normal and natural. God made us so.
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And let themselves be carried away by own illusions of being so exceptional.
Livio, your illusion is that you think I can easily change my mind after your and others` emotional admonitions. But to change my mind I need some logic. It is quite possible - it happened in case of Polish children fighters, do you remember?
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It is enough that a woman smiles, sends an appreciative look to a man, he starts imagining things, thinks he's so unique, intelligent and interesting, and runs to buy an engagement ring. They must be nuts to think a woman would like to discuss, with an exemplar which passes the ideas presented through the gender filter.
It works both ways - a woman who doesn`t share man`s views is uninteresting. It is enough when a woamn says: You are a genius! and the man will climb the glass mountain for her.
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So, to make a long story short - I don't see too many points to agree with you in the partition subject. Cheap self-flagellation which does nothing good because it presents only one side of the story.
Go and present the other side while I present my side and there will be balance. A perfect equilibrium after my self-flagelation meets your bombastic patriotism. Otherwise, people might think that your side is too poor to be presented and that I am right.
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A great mission to improve Poles in the forum where there're four or five Poles.
Do you suggest I should leave this forum and express my opinions somewhere else?
Sorry, can`t be done, I am loyal to people. On 5 March it will have been 3 years we are together. Do you want to dismiss 3 years of my life during which I have always expressed my opinions in this way? Don`t you think you require too much of me????????
Besides, what do you know about my activities beyond this forum? If I share and discuss my views to and with other people? Here, this forum is only a part of my activity. Do I need to adopt different views here because there are only 5 Poles in the forum????????
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But you are entitled to your opinions and repeating them
Yes, I know I am and I really don`t know why some of you are getting so excited about it.
You, Ola, George and a few others are really overreacting.
Do you have any problem? These are only opinions. And you behave as if I murdered your parents.
Re: Polish military victories and unfallen heroes « Reply #43 on Feb 6, 2008, 5:07pm »
Pawian, thanks for the expanation. So greed, corruption, total lack of nationalism, and failing to see the world as it is brought poland down. sounds like women were running the country! sadly, this describes america today.
Sorry livia I couldnt resist! Are all polish women man-haters or just you.
A soldier knows that only a fool would die for his country, the goal of war is to prove your enemy a fool. Do You know what you call people who wont fight or kill? SLAVES.
Re: Polish military victories and unfallen heroes « Reply #44 on Feb 6, 2008, 6:49pm »
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Hmm, where do you get such suppositions from? As far as I remember, I was bored with topics concerning Polish martyrology, not successes.
Yes that was unjust. Please don't mind it.
Oh, Pawian, Pawian, Pawian....
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Men like conflicts in which they can test themselves
Oh, Pawian, Pawian, Pawian.... I don't like conflicts and feel very tired with it. The aim of a productive dispute is to get as close as can be, to find common understanding. Yours is not - that's my impression.
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Go and present the other side while I present my side and there will be balance.
It is your sole responsibility to present a subject in a wholistic manner if the aim of your presentations is to propagate knowledge. I don't have to present the other side as there no other side. Either something is presented well or not well. And I have full right to critisize any publicly presented material. And I do critisize your choosing only those facts which speak for Polish defects and shortcoming. I don't deny these defects and shortcomings - because I am not a bombastic patriot as you said. I do critisize ommiting the facts showing the situation outside Poland etc.
And I am not emotional about what your write about Poland here. I dislike your using the gender filter and patronising tone which is sometimes very slight and sometimes gets stronger.
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You, Ola, George and a few others are really overreacting.
How did you say it elsewhere? People don't get irritated out of the blue?
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