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Post by pieter on Dec 3, 2009 19:40:14 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Dec 3, 2009 19:49:15 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Dec 3, 2009 19:53:43 GMT -7
Kruszyniany mosque (Poland) Tatarian Mosque Bohoniki (Poland)
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Post by pieter on Dec 3, 2009 19:58:44 GMT -7
Is this a mosque in Krakow (Pawian?)
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Post by Jaga on Dec 3, 2009 23:30:50 GMT -7
Hi Pieter, thanks for posting these interesting pictures. The mosque in Krakow looks not that very obvious that it is a mosque. It is a bit camoflaged.
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Post by tuftabis on Dec 4, 2009 3:44:31 GMT -7
Jaga, Does Saoudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Pakistan or Afghanistan allow the building of churches with church towers and ringing the church bells on sunday? A very good question, which practically summarizes the whole problem! And the problem is that the Muslim immigrants in their mass (not all) arrive in Europe and use her ultra-liberal (in American measures, this is an American forum culture, while accepting only those rules of the liberalism which suit THEIR'S culture and religion. As a side note let me say that I observe here another difference between Western Europe and Poland, kind of another piece in a jig-saw puzzle of Polish specifity which was named in another thread. It seems that Western Europe goes from wall to wall in attitudes to allien cultures, immigrants and so on. From total liberalism (remember the Netherlands being proud of their liberal stance, multi-Kulti culture, openess to immigartion fom around the globe?) to rightist measures of banning, prohobition etc. In this respect Poland seems more stable - we have never been as open and liberal as the Western Europe used to be in the last several decades, but we have never prohibited or banned. Poles seem to be moderately open and liberal. Their religiousness or at least their strong and lively roots in Christianity make them stabile in their acceptance of people with other rites etc - as long as they act in conocord for the common benefit of the common state. That is of course only my loose opinion formulated ad hoc.
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Post by Jaga on Dec 4, 2009 6:09:02 GMT -7
Jaga, Does Saoudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Pakistan or Afghanistan allow the building of churches with church towers and ringing the church bells on sunday? A very good question, which practically summarizes the whole problem! And the problem is that the Muslim immigrants in their mass (not all) arrive in Europe and use her ultra-liberal (in American measures, this is an American forum culture, while accepting only those rules of the liberalism which suit THEIR'S culture and religion. quote] I agree. I am not sure whether you saw the beginning of my first post. I said exactly the same thing that Muslims are not tolerant in their countries towards non-Muslims. So I hope that Pieter's and tuftabis questions to me are just retorical
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Post by pieter on Dec 4, 2009 6:40:39 GMT -7
Jaga, Does Saoudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Pakistan or Afghanistan allow the building of churches with church towers and ringing the church bells on sunday? A very good question, which practically summarizes the whole problem! And the problem is that the Muslim immigrants in their mass (not all) arrive in Europe and use her ultra-liberal (in American measures, this is an American forum culture, while accepting only those rules of the liberalism which suit THEIR'S culture and religion. As a side note let me say that I observe here another difference between Western Europe and Poland, kind of another piece in a jig-saw puzzle of Polish specifity which was named in another thread. It seems that Western Europe goes from wall to wall in attitudes to allien cultures, immigrants and so on. From total liberalism (remember the Netherlands being proud of their liberal stance, multi-Kulti culture, openess to immigartion fom around the globe?) to rightist measures of banning, prohobition etc. In this respect Poland seems more stable - we have never been as open and liberal as the Western Europe used to be in the last several decades, but we have never prohibited or banned. Poles seem to be moderately open and liberal. Their religiousness or at least their strong and lively roots in Christianity make them stabile in their acceptance of people with other rites etc - as long as they act in conocord for the common benefit of the common state. That is of course only my loose opinion formulated ad hoc. Tufta, Exellent statement, as a Dutchman living in the reality you described I see that in practice! My agreement with you may be subjective, but there is a subjective truth of the individuals and also two individuals of differant backgrounds and nations who agree on something! I am afraid that the multi-culti leftist and centre-right will continue the soft overtolerant practice of ultra-liberalism and indifferance again. While today, tomorrow and in the near future we have to continue the stricter path we are following now. Keeping our own customs, traditions, values and rules and accepting the same of the newcommers as long as they don't violate the European, democratic constitution, rules and customs we have. There must be a merger of the good Christian and secular elements and the moderate Muslim culture of immigrants who want to be Dutch, accept the Dutch education system for their kids, the Dutch society and the customs of the Native Dutch (-Europeans). If they don't they don't have anything to live for, work for and stay for in the Netherlands or Europe. We should not accept the segregational, rejectionist and Islamic isolationalist (getto) mentality some migrants have. We have from the other side to welcome those migrants who learnt Dutch propperly, made Dutch their native language, and live normal lives as Dutch citizens and Dutch Muslims. Those Turks, Maroccans and other migrants have become Dutch people with a Muslim background, like the Polish Tartar muslims who are Polish speaking citizens, who are loyal to Poland and fought many battles (wars) for Poland with the fellow Poles. No question about the loyalty of these Polish Muslims (of the Green wooden mosques, who stand in the Polish landscape for centuries by the way). Jaga, Yes, my questions to you were just retorical! Thanks for your replies and your understanding of the Dutch situation. My research yesterday after the Dutch mosques opened my eyes too! I did not know that there were that many large mosques with minarets in the Netherlands! The Netherlands has 450 mosques and dousens of mosques with minarets. Next to the most densly populated area in Europe the Netherlands is also the Western-European country with the most mosques per citizen. More than France with it's half million Muslims for instance. In that perspective Islam is rooted in the Nehterlands and the third largest religion after Catholicism and Protestantism. There are more Muslims than jews, Hindu's and Buddhists in the Netherlands, for instance. I think that in Poland you have more jews than Muslims for instance. Pieter
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Post by kaima on Dec 4, 2009 19:00:13 GMT -7
Česky: Mešita v Lednici. English: Mosque in Lednice. Dominant Lednice park was created 1797-1802 by the project architect Hardtmuth. This on line description does not match the story I was told in 1982. "Attempt to Islamic faith, failed, so there is a Lookout view and inside the mosque is a museum. Reportedly the highest minaret in the non-Muslim country, document the beginnings of oriental inspiration in Central Europe." Lednice: Lednice, zu deutsch Eiskeller; in English Ice Cellar. Construction of the minaret began in 1797. The centre of the building is a tower, 59, 39 metres high, in whose upper gallery 302 stairs lead. Three other ring-like roofed galleries encircle the tower. The first floor of the minaret is formed by eight halls, where Lichtenstein kept their collection of oriental items. Floors are made of stone mosaic, the ceiling and walls are decorated with Moorish handwriting. The story I heard and like is that the local lord had a fight going on with the local bishop, and when the bishop refused permission to build a chapel where the lord wanted, the lord went ahead and built the minaret instead! Stick it in your eye, Bishop! Whatever the truth, it was fashionable in Europe (and those islands to the west where they painted themselves blue) to build fantasy gardens, artificial Greek or Roman ruins, and other exotic buildings. In Schwetzingen, Germany, the local fellow has a magnificent garden you can visit today, one small component of which is a building of worship - with Hindu, Jewish, Islamic and Christian motifs on the building. The Nazis did not dare touch it during their destructive reign. So perhaps it is all fantasy, which is quite appropriate! Kai
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Post by pieter on Dec 5, 2009 5:35:57 GMT -7
Fatih Mosque in Beringen ( Flanders)
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Post by pieter on Dec 5, 2009 5:42:35 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Dec 5, 2009 5:48:43 GMT -7
The Urtegata mosque in Oslo.
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Post by pieter on Dec 5, 2009 5:52:48 GMT -7
Malmö mosque (Sweden) Comment of a visitor of the Swedish city: Next we paid a visit to Malmö Mosque, which was all but deserted: The mosque is far away from the Muslim housing estates in Rosengård. According to our Swedish guide, most of Rosengård’s Muslims worship at the “basement mosques”, and not the fancy one with the minarets paid for by Saudi money. But there it stands, anyway: an assertion of political supremacy, claiming for the Ummah with its dome and minarets the sacred territory of Rosengård. P.S.- Comment Pietter; In a lot of European countries (inclusife the Nehterlands) Saoudi's, the United Arab Emirates, Oman or the Turkish state organisations for mosques (both state and non-state)
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Post by pieter on Dec 5, 2009 6:04:32 GMT -7
Selimiye mosque Haarlem (Dutch town west of Amsterdam after which the New York Harlem is named)
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Post by pieter on Dec 5, 2009 6:08:05 GMT -7
Mosque in Zuilen in Utrecht, the most central city of the Netherlands and the heart of the Dutch railway system (trains to the North, West, South and East go through Utrecht).
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