|
|
Post by tuftabis on Apr 22, 2010 8:41:13 GMT -7
|
|
|
|
Post by tuftabis on Apr 22, 2010 8:55:25 GMT -7
The Belgian government collapsed seemingly over the language dispute. This is bad news for EU as a whole, including Poland, but especially bad for the Eurozone, which fights with PIIGS states' badly ran economy and 'creative' book-keeping by Greece. I am curious about the titles in some of the Western newpapers tomorrow. When government falls in some not that large country in Central and Eastern Europe, the equivalent of Belgium, we sometimes read. "Political chaos in Eastern Europe! The government in XYZtia falls!"
|
|
|
|
Post by pieter on Apr 22, 2010 14:56:28 GMT -7
Tufta,
Always this god d**n language dispute, this is going on for decades now!
Flemish nationalism is to strong, and the seperatist element very strong, not only in the far right peoples nationalist Vlaams Belang (Flemish concern) and the moderate Nationalist NVA (New Flemish Alliance), but also in the democraticand centrist Christian-democratic (Flemish Christian democrats) and Flemish liberals (moderate Republicans in American perspective) of the VLD.
The problem of Belgium is that the country has for administrative regions, Flanders, Wallonia, Brussels and the Belgian-German region which is attached to Wallonia. In the past the Wallon (French speaking part) was the wealthy (prosporous) one, but today the (Dutch speaking) Flanders is the wealthy region and Wallonia a poor region with a lot of unemployment, deterioration and a long history of socialist rule (Parti socialiste).
The Wallons and Flemish people do not have a lot in common, because you have a segregated system of a Wallon parlaiment and a Flemish parlaiment, with a Wallon government and a Flemish government, with a Wallon prime minister and a Flemish prime minister. You have Flemish Dutch speaking newspapers and magazines, tv chanals and radio station, and next to that the French speaking Wallon press and media. The Flemish and Wallon people live in differant worlds. Wallon kids go to French language primary schools, high schools and universities, and live in French speaking villages, towns and cities. The Flemish people have their own Dutch speaking schools, universities, communities, villages, towns, cities and regions. In the Federal state Belgium you have two states in a state, who are more important to the people than the Federal state. The Flemish and Wallon perspective is differant. The Flemish culture and focus is more towards the Netherlands and Great-Britain. The Wallon culture and society is more linked to France. I don't see the differance between Wallons and French. People who speak and understand French better than I do see the differance. In accent for instance, Wallon is slightly differant then French. It is comparable to Dutch and Frisian. I see clearly the differance between the Netherlands Dutch language and the Flemish Dutch language (It's comparable between the German of Baviara in the South - Flemish- and the German of the people of Hamburg or Bremen in the North - Netherlands-).
But there is a lot of cooperation between the Flemish and the Dutch, the Flemish TV broadcasts a lot of Dutch series, movies and Dutch musicians and comedians are popular in Flanders too. Flemish writers, poetry, theatre, art, cinema, sitcoms and cities are appreciated by many Dutch who are fond of the *bourgondic life stile and the Southern mentality of the Flemish.
More Wallon people feel something for Belgium and the Belgian monarchy than the Flemish people. A lot of Flemish people would prefer a Flemish republic and would love to get rid of the poorer Wallonia, which costs them a lot of money. (compare it to Croatia and Slovenia who wanted to get rid of the poorer Serbia,
to who they had to give a lot of Federal funding).
I have no idea if there is a possibility that the Wallons would united themselves with France and that the Flemish part of Belgium could become a part of the Netherlands again? (In the past Belgium was part of the Netherlands).
Pieter
* Bourgondic means, people who know how to appreciate good life, quality food (good kitchen), have Joie de vivre, have a relaxed mentality and have a combination or right mix of tradition, progress and modernity.
|
|
|
|
Post by tuftabis on Apr 23, 2010 0:58:17 GMT -7
Thank you Pieter!
I wonder what are the opinions in Dutch media today. Are there opinions Belgium is going to collapse as a state. How do the Dutch people see Belgium case in EU context.
|
|
|
|
Post by pieter on Apr 23, 2010 7:24:43 GMT -7
Tufta,
In the Dutch media the focus is on the fact that Belgium is in danger of being unrulable!
The focus is also on the quarel between Flemish and Wallon politicians who have quarreled
for decades with eachother. Thsi crisis did not come just out of the blue.
It has a long history, deep roots and a heritage of struggle between the communities!
Pieter
|
|
|
|
Post by pieter on Apr 23, 2010 11:24:27 GMT -7
Radio Netherlands report Belgian government collapses as PM quits Belgian Prime Minister Yves LetermeBelgian Prime Minister Yves Leterme resigned on Thursday after a key Flemish party withdrew its support and toppled his coalition government, a senior minister announced. " There was no other choice but for the government to resign," Finance Minister Didier Reynders told reporters after the Flemish liberal Open VLD party pulled out of the five-party coalition.  Finance Minister Didier ReyndersOpen VLD were frustrated by the failure to solve a long-running dispute over the division of 54 communes in the bilingual constituency of Brussel-Halle-Vilvoorde ( BHV). The dispute morphed into a bitter and complex language-based conflict that seemed incomprehensible to many Belgians. " It's the most absurd crisis. It's a stupid ego and power battle and we Belgians can't make head nor tail of it," said Etienne Decie, a Brussels-based lawyer. Suzanne, a teacher, said the crisis was an " old story between the Flemish and the Walloons" but that " it does not come from us the people but from the politicians. We ought to find a solution once and for all to live together."  Flemish Flag Wallon Flag Belgian apartheidThe row centred on a contested area known as Brussel-Halle-Vilvoorde ( BHV), which has been a seeping wound ever since Belgium was messily carved up along language lines in 1963. It triggered half a dozen crises in the past three years as politicians locked horns over reforms to carve up the area into distinct Flemish and French voting districts. The issue became a springboard for some local politicians to promote de facto apartheid in some communes. Some French-speakers were even barred from buying property in Flemish towns in the latest chapter of this turf war. " I will fight this until the bitter end," vowed Alexia Philippart de Foy, who had her offer on a house in Rhodes-Saint-Genèse turned down by Flemish authorities. " It cannot be the case that someone who is 100 per cent Belgian is barred from buying a house in her own country."  Alexia Philippart de Foy The conflict even trickled down to the picturesque, sleepy village of Gooik, just south of the bilingual capital Brussels. Flemish residents there spoke of an ' invasion' of French-speakers which must be stopped. " We want to preserve the Flemish character of this beautiful town," says Gooik's Mayor, Michel Doomst.  Gooik's Mayor, Michel Doomst The jovial Mr Doomst counts on the support of Gooik's 11,000 residents, many of who resent the influx of French-speakers. One elderly man walking his dog explained: " The Flemish here feel squeezed out. The people who come from Brussels to live here don't always want to adapt by learning Flemish." Standing outside a café, one woman fumed: " Why can't the French-speakers just leave us alone? This here is a Flemish area that should be kept Flemish." DeterrentsMayor Doomst has now taken matters into his own hands and has imposed his own informal mechanism to deter French-speakers from moving in. " We have a system of offer incentives in order to give precedence to people who have a clear link with this commune. And yes, that means Flemish people." Even residents who put their houses on the market are " encouraged" to sell to Flemish people, he said, though did not specify what this meant. Down the road in Flemish Rhodes-Saint-Genèse, the deterrents are more formal. Authorities have imposed a decree called " Wonen in eigen streek" ('Live in Your Own Area') which sets out clear conditions for would-be property buyers. Alexia Philippart de Foy explains: " The decree says you can't buy a house unless you've lived or worked in that commune for six years or have a clear link with it. I work all over the country but I've lived here for two years with my partner, who also works here. Our daughter goes to school here. But that's not enough for them." "Absurdistan"Belgians have grown weary of this undercurrent of tension that nearly provoked a definitive split between the six million Flemish and four million Walloons three years ago. They refer to their country as " Absurdistan" and increasingly wonder if the matter will ever be resolved. Echoing a common sentiment, one French-speaking man shrugged and said: " Most of us still get along with each other perfectly well on a personal level. But it's very sad that it's gone this far. What chance is there of creating a united Europe when we can't even get on in Belgium?" Partly based on an AFP report www.rnw.nl/english/article/belgian-government-collapses-pm-quits |
|
|
|
Post by pieter on Apr 23, 2010 11:57:47 GMT -7
And fro the international section of the best Dutch newspaper NRC Handelsblad: www.nrc.nl/international/Features/article2097876.ece/Belgium_lurches_from_crisis_to_crisisThe second best newspaper the Peoples paper, De Volskrant, says: "Possible new negociations in Belgium" (to repair or built a new government) www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/article1372905.ece/Mogelijk_nieuwe_onderhandelingen_in_BelgieThe third, christian newspaper of the Netherlands Trouw (Loyalty) says, the Belgian king is thinking about the situation and is considering the steps he has to take. www.trouw.nl/nieuws/europa/article3048698.ece/Kabinetscrisis_in_Belgie.htmlThe problem in my (Pieter's) eyes is that the Flemish aren't fond of Belgium, the Flemish are fond of Flanders, the Flemish lion (the Flanders symbol and with a yellow background the flag of Flanders). They just want the Flemish republic and some of them want to joyn the Nethertlands in a Union of Dutch speaking people. The Wallon are more Belgium oriented, a little bit more royalistic and Federalistic. Some of the Francophone Wallons want more close ties with France or Wallons independance, but that is a minority. There are also a lot of Belgian thinking and feeling Flemish people next to the Seperatist Nationalists. Belgium is a complicated country, with a complicated political system, but what unites Belgians (Wallons and Flemish) is that they know how to live a good life, in beautiful cities, towns and villages and country sides. They have an exellent Gastronomy, good fashion, fine arts, antiques, cultural life and an international orientation due to Brussels and Antwerp. Antwerp is an international harbour and Brussels is the capital of Europe, Belgium, Flanders and of the Communauté française de Belgique ((The French speaking community of Belgium; which means the Wallons). The paradox of Brussels is that it is a French speaking Flemish city. Brussels has a status aparte as a region autonomous from the Flemish and Wallon regions, but in the same time is their capital. Brussel people feel differant from other regions, because it always has had a multi-lingual population. Today the French speaking majority is a " problem" for the Dutch speaking Felmish majority in and around Brussels. If Belgium will sease to exist, when it falls apart, the Flemish will have a problem with their " French majority" capital. Maybe Antwerp will be a second best option. But I know that the Flemish are as attached to their Capital as the french speaking Wallons are. For Europe I don't know what the consequences will be of an abolished Belgian state. Flanders will do fine weather it will be an independant state or part of the Netherlands. The Communauté française de Belgique (the Wallon area or region) is a problem however. They are bancrupt, I don't think France is very willing to make Wallonia part of France. But maybe in the worst case scenario (when Belgium collapses) France would be willing to accept the Communauté française de Belgique. Pieter Links: Yves Leterme English: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yves_LetermeGerman: pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yves_LetermeGerman: de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yves_LetermeAlbert II of Belgium en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_II_of_BelgiumElio Di Rupo, leader of the Wallon Parti Socialiste English:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elio_Di_Rupo Polish: pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elio_Di_RupoGerman: de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elio_Di_RupoRudy Demotte, prime minister of the Flemish government  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris_Peeterspl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris_PeetersRudy Demotte, prime minister of the Wallon government of la Communauté française de Belgique:  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudy_Demottepl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudy_Demottede.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudy_DemotteKarl Heinz Lambertz Polish: pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl-Heinz_LambertzEnglish: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl-Heinz_LambertzGerman: de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl-Heinz_LambertzFlemish Nationalist leader Filip Dewinter (Englisj) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filip_Dewinter(Polski) pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filip_Dewinter(German) de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filip_DewinterHis party: (Polish) pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interes_FlamandzkiIn English: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlaams_BelangIn German: de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlaams_BelangThe Belgian Federal Parlaimenten.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Federal_Parliamentpl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parlament_Federalny_Belgiide.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%B6derales_Parlament_%28Belgien%29The Belgian SenateBelgian Senate: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_SenateSenat Belgii : pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senat_BelgiiSenat (Belgien): de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senat_%28Belgien%29 |
|
|
|
Post by pieter on Apr 24, 2010 4:01:38 GMT -7
|
|
|
|
Post by pieter on Apr 24, 2010 4:05:54 GMT -7
|
|
|
|
Post by pieter on Apr 24, 2010 4:41:43 GMT -7
|
|
|
|
Post by pieter on Apr 24, 2010 4:46:04 GMT -7
Flanders vs Wallonia
|
|
|
|
Post by karl on Apr 24, 2010 7:51:54 GMT -7
Tufta and Pieter I have been some what negligent with non-response to this thread, sorry.... Yes, it is quite common for a visitor to be non-committable whilst on most any travel through Belgium. It is such a beautiful country to have such dissension. Also of truth, the people are for the most part, very proud of their nationality. As so they should be. A common term in the office with reference to Belgium is{ König der Belgier} for that is what it is, a Monarchy based upon democratic principal. But to the business at hand: Of only an opinion, it is to my personal belief that this situation as it stands, needs be not to have occurred to begin with, for it is the duty of the monarchy that of Albert 2nd, to have this resolved in a manner that will be acceptable to the majority of the citizens. For of most all social societies {Kingdom of Belgium is not exception}, the binding core values of most national identities, is formed by religion and language. As thus, it is to King Albert {2}, to have accomplished this long ago. And he has not. For it is not so difficult to create the aspects of a binding force of language as officially declare by decree, as recognition of the various regional languages used, as the official language of Belgium. The Swiss accomplished this very far in past. For there is, dependent upon location, several languages used, and all are of official recognized as Swiss language {Italian, German,French and Romansh}, there is little reason as for that to be in Belgium as similar. Noten: Romansh is rarely used and primarily only in one location of Switzerland. But, all included that of Romansh is officially recognized by Federal Decree. In short, a person to correspond to a office of the Swiss Government with use of Romansh, will then receive a reply in language of Romansh. In this manner of official recognition of languages used in the various areas of The Swiss Confederation, discord is thusly eliminated. There is very little reason as of The Belgium, to not accomplish this similar. It is not difficult to imagine the short time future of this situation, as to become an issue. For as of July, the EU Presidency will be in the hands of the Belgiums. news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8641574.stmKarl |
|
|
|
Post by tuftabis on Apr 25, 2010 0:15:10 GMT -7
Pieter and Karl,
thanks for the follow-up. Pieter, your youtubes have indeed explained all. This is much more than a language spat with nationalism behind it. Let us hope that if they split they do it in a civilized Czech & Slovak way!
While watching the Pieter's youtubes I have noticed also this one, shocking, as it seems the Flemish parlementarians are beaten by Walloon police. In the heart of Europe understood as the EU.
|
|
|
|
Post by pieter on Apr 25, 2010 3:10:14 GMT -7
Tufta, I see two Flemish leaders of the Nationalist Felmish Vlaams Belang party, who are being arrested by the Brussels (francophone) Police during a European demonstration against the Islamization of Europe of the * SIOE ( Stop The Islamization Of Europe) which was organised by Danish, German and English groups. Nationalist parties from several European countries and others took part in this international demonstration. Yes, it looks as policebrutality of French speaking police officers against Dutch speaking Flemish parlaimentarians and politicians. The Brussels mayor had prohibited the demonstration. Pieter Link: sioe.wordpress.com/ |
|
|
|
Post by tuftabis on Apr 25, 2010 11:22:27 GMT -7
I followed the link. The movement might be useful if they find the right language. Using the wrong language makes 'the silent majority' indifferent as the perception might be they are some sort of supremacist. The point is to make clear they are not against immigrants who become loyal part of European societies. Thanks.
|
|
