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Post by devries on Jan 9, 2014 11:53:32 GMT -7
Malgosia, thank you for your contribution. I know that Brits were against Silesia's becoming Polish, since they did not want France to become a dominant power in case Prussia would lose Silesia. Still, Even if England did not support Polish political ambitions all the time, they never attacked Poland directly. I think they mean Crimean War. Although in Poland we assume Poland didn't exist at that time Kingdom of Poland was formally there as part of Russian Empire and many foreign historians think so.
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Post by pieter on Jan 9, 2014 16:39:12 GMT -7
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Post by karl on Jan 9, 2014 20:02:33 GMT -7
Pieter For you have done such wonderful work with presentation material as to be most intiminating for my self to add any thing additional. Upon several occasions was I to add with Frisian, was then to simply delete out as unsuitable. My self though found your presentations of the various invasions of the British land as most interesting to say the least. Some we had studied whilst in school in my youith whilst othere is new. The type of Norse boats as shown in one of the photos is still a type in use today in Norway. With the high left bow and stern portions, allows the boat to ride over the heavy swells that most frequents the inlets from the open sea. This with out taking watter over the bow and swamping. The following url is a nice provision by the auther as being Frisian. The content is rather long, but with good descriptions of Frisian dialects and comparison words being: Frisian=English-Dutch-German. If of patiece and interest in Frisian, click upon at beginning, the word {soundfiles} www.languageandlaw.org/FRISIAN/FRISIAN.HTMMy self,,,It has been some many years past of speaking Frisian {North Frisian} I would be most embarrassed amongst others at present. For as that to be, My German now, still lingers with frisian dialect I am not aware of, but apparantly otheres are by the some times look I recieve whilst amongst others. For some times, it is an impression of some people {German} beliving Frisian people are for the most part, very sparcely educated and farmer like or fishermen. Perhaps though, this is a misguided impression I have, but so be it for what it is. Karl
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Post by pieter on Jan 10, 2014 6:02:49 GMT -7
Do you understand the Frisian anthem Karl?
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Post by pieter on Jan 10, 2014 6:04:34 GMT -7
Frisian topmodel supports Frisian language campaign
Translated: She says it is very normal for her t speak Frisian. It is for her important to use her original language (next to Dutch and English). She e-mails, tweets and talks Frisian through the phone with friends and family. She says: "When I was in Amsterdam where they speak decent general Dutch I was recognised by my Frisian accent in Dutch." Probably you have the same in German Karl, where other Germans will recognize your Frisian accent in German. It is important and normal for her to support her Frisian language in the Netherlands, where it is a minority language of a few hundred thousand people in the North. (470.000 Frisian speakers on a Dutch population of 16 million people)
Doutzen Kroes
Doutzen Kroes (IPA: [ˈdʌu̯tsə(ŋ) ˈkrus]; born 23 January 1985) is a Dutch model and actress, who is a Victoria's Secret Angel. She started working for the brand in 2004 and became an Angel in 2008. She is on contract with L'Oréal. In 2012 she came in fifth on the Forbes top-earning models list, estimated to have earned $6.9 million in one year. Kroes was born on 23 January 1985 in the village of Eastermar (Dutch: Oostermeer), in the province of Friesland, Netherlands, to a Frisian family. As a young girl, Kroes aspired to be a professional speed skater.
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Post by pieter on Jan 10, 2014 6:23:00 GMT -7
It is amazing how many dialects and regional languages are spoken in my country, the Netherlands, and your Germany, Karl. My mother told me that there are less dialects and regional languages in Polish. There is mainly one dominant language, Polish. Germany has a lot of Bundesländer or länder -states- and therefor als o a lot or regional and city dialects and several regional languages. The German dialect continuum is traditionally divided most broadly into High German and Low German, also called Low Saxon. Yet, historically, High German dialects and Low Saxon/Low German dialects do not belong to the same language. Nevertheless, in today's Germany, Low Saxon/Low German is often perceived as a dialectal variation of Standard German on a functional level, even by many native speakers. The same phenomenon is found in the eastern Netherlands, as the traditional dialects are not always identified with their Low Saxon/ Low German origins, but with Dutch. Recognised native minority languages in Germany are Danish, Low German, Sorbian, Romany, and Frisian; they are officially protected by the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages. The most used immigrant languages are Turkish, Kurdish, Polish, the Balkan languages, and Russian. 67% of German citizens claim to be able to communicate in at least one foreign language and 27% in at least two languages other than their own. In Dutch we have Frisian as the second official language. Low Saxon and Limburgian are recognized as regional languages. In fact * the heavy dialects of Zeeland could be considered as regional languages too, because you can distinguish Zeelandish and Flemish (Zeelandish-Flanders) people from other Dutch people from the language or dialect they speak. Papiamento and English are languages next to the official Dutch language on the overseas Dutch municipalities of Bonaire ( Papiamento) and Saba (English) and Sint-Eustatius (English) on the Dutch Antilles. Yiddish and the languages of Roma and Sinti are recognized as non-territorial languages in the Netherlands. *Here an example of the Zeelandish language or dialect: zea.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeêland and compare it with Dutch: nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeeland_(provincie)Dialects of PolishModern sources on the Slavic languages normally describe the Polish language as consisting of four major dialect groups, each primarily associated with a certain geographical region, and often further subdivided into subdialectal groups (called gwara or region in Polish): - Greater Polish, spoken in the west- Lesser Polish, spoken in the south and southeast- Masovian, spoken throughout the central and eastern parts of the country - Silesian, spoken in the southwest ( also considered a separate language) Early mediaeval tribes, from which the modern Polish dialects descended. The regional differences correspond mainly to old ethnic or tribal divisions from around a thousand years ago. As a result of expulsions and other displacements of Poles during and after World War II, as well as language policy in the People's Republic of Poland, the Polish language became far more homogeneous in the second half of the 20th century. Polish linguistic tradition includes three more dialect groups, for a total of seven: - Kashubian, spoken in an elongated band of territory in the Pomorze region west of Gdańsk on the Baltic Sea; now usually considered a separate language - Northern Kresy, spoken along the border between Lithuania and Belarus- Southern Kresy, spoken in isolated pockets in UkraineA map showing the major Polish dialects: Lesser Polish, Greater Polish, Mazovian, Silesian, and the new mixed dialects in areas settled after World War II. The Kashubian language is also shown.And not far over the Polish-German border you find another Slavic minority language! SorbianThe Sorbian languages (Serbsce, Serbski) are two closely related languages spoken by the Sorbs, a Slavic minority in the Lusatia region of eastern Germany. They are classified under the West Slavic branch of the Indo-European languages. Historically the languages have also been known as Wendish or Lusatian. Their collective ISO 639-2 code is wen. They are closely related to Polish, Kashubian, Czech and Slovak. There are two literary languages: Upper Sorbian ( hornjoserbsce), spoken by about 40,000 people in Saxony, and Lower Sorbian ( dolnoserbski) spoken by about 10,000 people in Brandenburg. The area where the two languages are spoken is known as Lusatia ( Łužica in Upper Sorbian, Łužyca in Lower Sorbian, or Lausitz in German). HistoryAfter the invasion of the formerly Germanic territories (the part largely corresponding to the former East Germany) by the Sorbs' Slavic ancestors in the 5th and 6th centuries, the Sorbian language (or its predecessors) has been in use in much of what was the southern half of East Germany for several centuries, and has still its stronghold in (Upper and Lower) Lusatia, where it enjoys national protection and fostering until today. Outside Lusatia, it has been superseded by German, following official discrimination from the 13th century on. The printed language developed around the main Bible translations into Sorbian. Geographic distributionIn Germany, Upper and Lower Sorbian are officially recognized and protected as minority languages. In the home areas of the Sorbs, both languages are officially equal to German. The city of Bautzen in Upper Lusatia is the centre of Upper Sorbian culture. Bilingual signs can be seen around the city, including the name of the city, " Bautzen/Budyšin". The city of Cottbus ( Chóśebuz) is considered the cultural centre of Lower Sorbian; here too bilingual signs are found. Sorbian has also been spoken in the small Sorbian (" Wendish") settlement of Serbin in Lee County, Texas, and it is possible that a few speakers still remain there. Until recently newspapers were published in Sorbian there. The local dialect has been heavily influenced by surrounding speakers of German and English. A bilingual sign in BautzenWhile the old German-derived labels " Wend" and " Wendish", which once denoted " Slav(ic)" generally, have been retained in American and Australian communities, they are today mostly unusual in place of " Sorb" and " Sorbian" with reference to Sorbian communities in Germany, because many Sorbs consider such words to be offensive. The Sorbian-speaking region in GermanyLinguistic featuresBoth Upper and Lower Sorbian have the dual for nouns, pronouns, adjectives and verbs; very few known living Indo-European languages retain this feature as a productive aspect of the grammar (see Slovene grammar for what is probably the only other one). For example, the word ruka is used for one hand, ruce for two hands, and ruki for more than two hands. Sorbian girls during a religious ceremonyJęzyki łużyckieJęzyki łużyckie – grupa obejmująca dwa blisko spokrewnione języki zachodniosłowiańskie: górnołużycki i dolnołużycki. Używane są one przez Łużyczan (łącznie ok. 150 tys. osób, większość z nich posługuje się jednak wyłącznie językiem niemieckim) na terenie Łużyc we wschodnich Niemczech. Obydwa języki łużyckie są zagrożone wymarciem (przede wszystkim dolnołużycki, którego liczbę aktywnych użytkowników szacuje się na kilka tysięcy, i którym na co dzień posługuje się w zasadzie tylko najstarsza generacja, podczas gdy górnołużyckiego używa ok. 55 tys. osób). Dolnołużycki jest bardziej zbliżony do polskiego, a górnołużycki do czeskiego i słowackiego. W obydwu językach występuje gramatyczna liczba podwójna. Na Łużycach wytworzył się także pośredni język pomiędzy jęz. niemieckim a dolnołużyckim – Ponaschemu. Polskie głoski ć dź, w dolnołużycczyźnie zmieniają się w ś, ź. Por. być – byś, dzieci – źiśi. Grupy spółgłosek tr i pr zmieniają się w tš, pś i pš, np. prawy – pšawy, straszny – tšašny. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbian_languagespl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Języki_łużyckieda.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbisk_(sprog)fy.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbyskru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Лужицкие_языки
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Post by pieter on Jan 10, 2014 9:01:39 GMT -7
Pieter For you have done such wonderful work with presentation material as to be most intiminating for my self to add any thing additional. Upon several occasions was I to add with Frisian, was then to simply delete out as unsuitable. My self though found your presentations of the various invasions of the British land as most interesting to say the least. Some we had studied whilst in school in my youith whilst othere is new. The type of Norse boats as shown in one of the photos is still a type in use today in Norway. With the high left bow and stern portions, allows the boat to ride over the heavy swells that most frequents the inlets from the open sea. This with out taking watter over the bow and swamping. The following url is a nice provision by the auther as being Frisian. The content is rather long, but with good descriptions of Frisian dialects and comparison words being: Frisian=English-Dutch-German. If of patiece and interest in Frisian, click upon at beginning, the word {soundfiles} www.languageandlaw.org/FRISIAN/FRISIAN.HTMMy self,,,It has been some many years past of speaking Frisian {North Frisian} I would be most embarrassed amongst others at present. For as that to be, My German now, still lingers with frisian dialect I am not aware of, but apparantly otheres are by the some times look I recieve whilst amongst others. For some times, it is an impression of some people {German} beliving Frisian people are for the most part, very sparcely educated and farmer like or fishermen. Perhaps though, this is a misguided impression I have, but so be it for what it is. Karl Karl, It is a very interesting link you posted there. It has a lot of interesting information about Friesland (Dutch Frisia). Very detailed, very correct information and if you read it you get a lot to know about the Dutch Frisia province and other provinces where Frisians lived and live. Karl, in the Netherlands too some people considered or consider Frisian people to be rural peasents (farmers) and fishermen far away from the Dutch cities and Groningen city, which the Dutch Westerners consider to be the civilized world. The Frisians are considered by some non-Frisian Dutch as stubborn, tough, introvert loners who want to stick to themselves and don't like Hollanders (people from the West and South of them). A lot of the newcomers in Frisia (Friesland) are excactly Hollanders from the West. "Import people" as we call people in the Netherlands who move to another province or region. The Frisians and the newcomers can get along fine, but there will be always a difference between them. The Hollander will speak general Dutch without an accent and the Frisian will speak Dutch with a heavy or light Frisian accent. Frisians inside and outside Friesland will also be recognizable with their Frisian names like 'De Vries', 'Fries', and names ending with -da, -stra, -sma/ma, and Visser (=Fisherman), Visscher Vischer, Fischer and Janson/Jenssen. Typical Dutch Frisian names are Dijkstra, Halbertsma and Postma. Probably the same names or kind of names occur in Germany and Denmark. Jenssen is both a Danish and Frisian name. Cheers, Pieter
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Post by kaima on Jan 10, 2014 10:54:40 GMT -7
Dialects of PolishSorbianHistoryGeographic distribution Pieter, When I read your presentation on English this is exactly the posting that I was hoping you woould follow through with. Thanks. Kai
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Post by karl on Jan 10, 2014 11:13:25 GMT -7
Do you understand the Frisian anthem Karl? Pieter Where on this earth were you to find this? I was not aware this even existed.. Some I was to understand, but it is a different dialect then is ours. The following is only a part of the song, and I am not exactly certain I have it correct in English. Fries blood on, feeling your heroes value, Be proud that you are a Fries. We sing country of the Earth, Of the Frisians country far around,Your old honour, o Frisian ground! By high floods and saamgeschoold on mound and whose, the Fries are precious to erf knew hats; His country, his vrijhed remained him,Your old honour, o Frisian ground! Never once trodden down by the foot dwingelands, Though arm often, but still strong and free, Hoield d'oude Fries. He died as he was a Frisian, Frisian,your old honour, o Frisian ground! Karl
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Post by pieter on Jan 10, 2014 11:30:18 GMT -7
Kaima, You are welcome! I hoped for a mirror reaction of people with 100% or 50% Slavic background on this Forum to my West-Germanic (Old English, Old Frisian, Low Saxon, Anglo-Saxon, Danish/Dutch) story. A West-Slav or pan-Slav alterntive? (Maybe we should start a different thread) Maybe someone like Karl or me of mixed Slav heritage (In staid of Polish-Dutch and Danish-German)? It would be interesting to meet someone with Polish and Ukrainian or Polish-Slovak heritage, Hungarian-Slovak, Romanian-Ukrainian or a Czech person. Each person has his or her interesting background and family heritage. What fascinates me and what has always fascinated me are border zones of language groups. The border zone of Slavic and Germanic languages for instance and the the border zone of Romance-Latin and Germanic languages. The latter are the French-German language border with the Franconian dialects and languages like Letzeburgs ( Lëtzebuergesch) (= Luxembourgish language) and Walloon language Walon. Walon is a fraconian language with strong Germanic influences. Sorbian is clearly a Western-slav language in a German sea close to the border and thus influence of Polish. You talked about the Rusyns in the Carpathian Mountain region in the border lands of Poland, Slovakia and Ukraine. Rusyn, or more specifically Carpatho-Rusyn is a vernacular spoken in: the Transcarpathian Region of Ukraine; northeastern Slovakia; in Vojvodina, Serbia; southeastern Poland, where the Rusyn dialect is generally known as Łemkowski, after the characteristic word лем/lem (meaning "only", "but" and "like"); Hungary (where the people and language are called Ruszin) and; northern Maramureș, Romania, where the people are called Ruteni and the language Ruteană. The the Rusyns are also known in Poland as Lemko's. A famous American from Rusyn background was Michael Strank (Slovak: Michal Strenk; Rusyn: Mykhal Strenk) (November 10, 1919 – March 1, 1945) who was a Sergeant in the United States Marine Corps during World War II. He was photographed raising the flag atop Mount Suribachi during the Battle of Iwo Jima. The leader of the group in the famous picture was Strank, who got the order to climb Mt. Suribachi to lay telephone wire. Michael Strank, sergeant in the United States Marine CorpsThe artist Andy Warhol (August 6, 1928 – February 22, 1987) was another Rusyn-American who was a leading figure in the visual art movement known as pop art. His works explore the relationship between artistic expression, celebrity culture and advertisement that flourished by the 1960s. After a successful career as a commercial illustrator, Warhol became a renowned and sometimes controversial artist. Andy Warhol, American Pop ArtistAlexander Vasilyevich Dukhnovich (Rusyn: Александeр Васильєвич Духновiч, Aleksander Vasyl’jevyč Duxnovič; Slovak: Alexander Duchnovič; Russian: Александр Васильевич Духнович, Aleksandr Vasilevich Dukhnovich; 24 April 1803 – 30 March 1865) was a priest, poet, writer, pedagogue, and social activist of the Slavic peoples of the Carpathians. He is considered as the awakener (Rusyn: Будитиль, Budytyl’) of the Rusyns. Alexander Vasilyevich Dukhnovich, the awakener of the RusynsThe must be more particular dialects or borderland regional languages inbetween the Eastern-Slav and Western-Slav countries or on the borders of the Western-Slav Czech-Republic, Slovakia and Poland. My mother also told me once that in Eastern-Poland she had a hard time to understand some people because they spoke Ukrainian or some sort of Ukrainian border dialect. Cheers, Pieter
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Post by pieter on Jan 10, 2014 11:47:49 GMT -7
Do you understand the Frisian anthem Karl? Pieter Where on this earth were you to find this? I was not aware this even existed.. Some I was to understand, but it is a different dialect then is ours. The following is only a part of the song, and I am not exactly certain I have it correct in English. Fries blood on, feeling your heroes value, Be proud that you are a Fries. We sing country of the Earth, Of the Frisians country far around,Your old honour, o Frisian ground! By high floods and saamgeschoold on mound and whose, the Fries are precious to erf knew hats; His country, his vrijhed remained him,Your old honour, o Frisian ground! Never once trodden down by the foot dwingelands, Though arm often, but still strong and free, Hoield d'oude Fries. He died as he was a Frisian, Frisian,your old honour, o Frisian ground! Karl Karl, I just found it on youtube when I typed in the words anthem and Fries and got the song. In contrast to the content of the song Dutch Frisians aren't very Nationalistic. They feel Dutch and part of the Netherlands, they are only proud of their region, language and culture as part of the Netherlands. All Frisians or most Frisians are bilingual and speak fluently Dutch next to Frisian. Dutch is spoken everywhere in Friesland, and you can see Dutch names, Dutch flags and Dutch (Holland) people over there next to the Frisians. The Frisian identity is mainly cultural and linguistic, not in a nationalistic or patriotic sense. Many Frisians in Friesland aren't fond of the Frisian nationalism of the Frysk Nasionale Party, FNP. Therefor the Dutch national parties gain more votes than the FNP in Friesland. Labour is the largest party in the province followed by the Christian democrats ( CDA) and the liberals (Dutch FDP, VVD). FNP and PVV share the forth position in seats in the Provincial council of Friesland. Friesland is mainly an agricultural province. The black and white Frisian cattle and the black Frisian horse originated here. Tourism is another important source of income: the principal tourist destinations include the lakes in the southwest of the province and the islands in the Wadden Sea to the north. There are 195 windmills in the province of Friesland, out of a total of about 1200 in the entire country. Frisian cowsA Frisian black horseCheers, Pieter
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Post by Big D on Jan 12, 2014 17:27:58 GMT -7
I am sure that Poland was never invaded by the Brits but from 2003 Polish emigrants invaded Britain. With the hard work and no tea brakes they conquered the market and stole all the jobs from poor benefit claimers. God save us all and specially the queen
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Don't want to disturb but...
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Post by Don't want to disturb but... on Feb 4, 2014 3:53:54 GMT -7
In the movie Teutonic Knights, he shouts : Fryzowie i Angielczycy!
Means : Frisians AND English!
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Post by Jaga on Feb 4, 2014 4:47:27 GMT -7
In the movie Teutonic Knights, he shouts : Fryzowie i Angielczycy! Means : Frisians AND English! good point. I need to see Krzyzacy again to check this shout whether is for real
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Post by Jaga on Feb 4, 2014 4:49:41 GMT -7
Pieter,
this map of different dialects is interesting but it missed highlanders dialect which is unique.
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