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Post by kaima on Jul 12, 2013 6:01:44 GMT -7
It is okay that many Americans feel attracted or connected to their European roots as long that they don't forget who they really are. Americans. And most Americans are a mix of various European nations. Like my niece and nephew from Milwaukee, they have Polish-American, Ukrainian-American and Italian-American roots due to their parents. Their mother is Polish American. My cousin, who had two Polish parents who came to the USA at the end of the war and after the war and spoke Polish at home. The father of the boy and girl has parents with Ukrainian and Italian roots. So they are Americans with Central-European, Eastern-European and Southern-European roots, but in the same time are very American kids. Cheers, Pieter Pieter, I hope I left the proper context of your statement to continue. I also think we all quite ignore the melting pot of Europe, with all of the shifts and changes in populations over the many centuries and even predating our written history. When the Plague wiped out vast areas in the Black Forest, foreigners were brought in to repopulate the area. Same after the Mongols in Hungary, and the plagues wiped out the Hungarian/Slovak wine growers who had lived there since before the dawn of written history. Italian wine growers were brought in to reestablish the industry. There were so many cases of this cross-fertilization, colonization and shifting of populations and invitation to new settlers that for us to speak of any 'pure' people is fantasy. Yet our discussions always seem to be based on this, that today's ethnic and cultural borders always existed except as we record them. I believe that is a very false concept, but one in which we are trapped.
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Post by Jaga on Jul 12, 2013 7:46:55 GMT -7
Kai,
still, the borders in Europe usually divide people according to their culture/ethnic and language differences. You stated your opinion of Poland, which is true for Krakow (busy town, many cars and people) but not for Northern Poland for instance. People migrate, culture change, still, there are certain patterns that persist. Slovakia is very different than Poland, different landscape, different history, villages, ... it is due to many factors, politics and economy including.
It does not mean that people did not mix, but they started behaving like the locals rather....
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Post by karl on Jul 12, 2013 10:30:45 GMT -7
It is okay that many Americans feel attracted or connected to their European roots as long that they don't forget who they really are. Americans. And most Americans are a mix of various European nations. Like my niece and nephew from Milwaukee, they have Polish-American, Ukrainian-American and Italian-American roots due to their parents. Their mother is Polish American. My cousin, who had two Polish parents who came to the USA at the end of the war and after the war and spoke Polish at home. The father of the boy and girl has parents with Ukrainian and Italian roots. So they are Americans with Central-European, Eastern-European and Southern-European roots, but in the same time are very American kids. Cheers, Pieter Pieter, I hope I left the proper context of your statement to continue. I also think we all quite ignore the melting pot of Europe, with all of the shifts and changes in populations over the many centuries and even predating our written history. When the Plague wiped out vast areas in the Black Forest, foreigners were brought in to repopulate the area. Same after the Mongols in Hungary, and the plagues wiped out the Hungarian/Slovak wine growers who had lived there since before the dawn of written history. Italian wine growers were brought in to reestablish the industry. There were so many cases of this cross-fertilization, colonization and shifting of populations and invitation to new settlers that for us to speak of any 'pure' people is fantasy. Yet our discussions always seem to be based on this, that today's ethnic and cultural borders always existed except as we record them. I believe that is a very false concept, but one in which we are trapped. Pieter and Kai My self were to review with interest your individual responses and reflections of personal viewpoints, I do agree with both of you, for it is quite very valid in reality of the fantasy of a pure race. For to just simply think of our each respective histoy and history that is known. In this manner, as Kai has so rightly made to light, we are all races of mixed genitics. Some perhaps stronger in physical presentation, whilst others there but not so apparant. In reguards to the present use of race, we have to have a name, and so are known by our place of birth or nationality. This I believe is the referance Pieter made in not to forget our individual identity is our nationality. Karl
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Post by pieter on Jul 12, 2013 15:03:57 GMT -7
Folks,
I have to prepare for a week camping in the German part of the Belgian Ardens mountains, near Eupen. But I want to reply to Karl and Kaima before I leave. (I will not participate on the Forum from Saturday july 13 until saturday July the 20th)
Karl, Kai and my individual responses and reflections of personal viewpoints are colored by our upbring, geographical position and experiance with travelling and contacts with people. Ron you have your Slovak-American point of view, but in the same time you aren't a typical representative of for instance Slovak-Americans (if there is a Slovak version of the Polish Diaspora [Polonia]?), because you are a individual and authentic solist thinker, a libertarian. Maybe Slovak-Americans and Slovaks are collectivist people or group people. I don't know. I just want to say that each of us has his or her own personal mix of genes, dna, family connections, traits, walk of life, talents, gifts, professions and education.
What I know about you ,Ron, is that you not only are an Alaskan with your own mindset, political ideas and research, (of things) you also travel to other states in the US, and frequently visit Europe to see familymembers, friends and other people (the people you meet on a trip/journey. Europeans and Americans who are in Europe). I read about Ron's experiance with Germany, the Czech republic and Slovakia. Now you have add Poland to that and especially the wonderful old Polish, Habsburg city Kraków which is a centre of culture and science, education, regional development and international connection. (via it's airport, modern infrastructure and railways) Kraków is connected by rail to Berlin, Budapest, Kiev, Lviv, Hamburg, Prague en Vienna. You traveled by train just recently from Poland to Slovakia. So Ron by his personal experiance in travelling has some sort of Transatlantic (helicopter) view (in my opinion of course, which is subjective, because I know Ron via this Forum, and therefor has to believe him on his words, what he writes over here. And I do.) He can compare the USA with Germany, Czech Republic, Slovakia and now Poland. I agree with Ron completely about the Golden Triangle Prague, Krakow and Budapest. So we share some experiance with Central-Europe. But I don't want to compare my experiance with your experiance, because you have (probably) travelled Central-Europe (the countries I mentioned) more extensively than I did. We have all our personal and significant taste and preference (free will and choice/selection) in where we want to go, to what and which and whom we feel connected and do not. My personal life experiance and roots created an interest in all slavic people and countries, the West-Slavs, East-Slavs and Southern-Slavs. My parents met eachother in Dubrovnik, Yugoslavia back then, Croatia today, so due to Yugoslavia and Croatia I exist. Because my mother went on holiday from one communist ruled socialist country to another socialist ruled country (her comes Ron's correc theory of pluralism and diversity in the Socialist countries, the states ruled by communist parties; Yugoslavian Titoist communism was independent from the Sovjet block; and was part of the group of Independent countries - not part of the Western or Eastern alliances) and there she met my dutch father, who was on holiday there with a group of Dutch friends.
The stories of John and Tim are typical stories of the Central- and Eastern-European immigrants who left Poland (and Slovakia, Russia and the Ukraine) to find a better life in the new world, America, the United States of America. A new future in a country with another religion (Protestantism), other Europeans (the majority of English speaking people with an English, Scottisch, German or Swedish background; the WASP's) and in the beginning the Polish immigrants who went to the US faced fierce resistance (rejection), antipathy, xenophobia and anti-Polonist, anti-semitic and anti-Central- and Eastern-European sentiments in general. They were alien to the white Protestant christian Americans who lived in America back then. And within the Roman-Catholic hierarchy and culture in America the Poles had to compete with the strong Irish and Italian presence. Very dominant groups in my opinion. I read somewhere that within Catholic circles in the USA there are stil traces of these ethnic rivalries. Maybe milder forms, but the differences stil exist. To my surprise I learnt about the ethnic and cultural stucture of the USA. That people, families, groups, communities stick to their ethnic, linguistic and European national identities. Thank god there is a large group of Americans who are so pan-European in their mix that they are just Americans. And that is the way it should be. You are American whether your name is Kowalski, O'Brien, Andrusenko, Pfeiffer, Melenchuk, Levi, Hoeksema, Smith, Kwasieborski, Van Halen or Johansson.
The American culture is a Pan-European culture in which West-Germanic (English, German and Scandinavian), Slav (Polish, Russian, Slovak, Ukrainian and Ashkenazi jews from the Slav countries) and Latin (French, Italian, Spanish and Portugese) elements have merged to become the American culture. Most dominant maybe is the West-Germanic group, because the English and the Scots won the battles with the French and the Spanish from Mexico.
Karl, you have your own ethnic mix of Danish and German and your experiance with life as a kid in Denmark, beautiful and less beautiful memories and experiances (I do not recall names, dates and places), and your life, education (study) and job in Germany as adolescent. South-Africa, Syria, the USA (Seattle) Canada and Mexico were your places of life and work (duty). That experiances have made you who you are.
Jaga, your life in Krakow must have been good, with your wonderful family and their international and national contacts. A scientific and cultural upbringing. You saw many countries in Europe and were and are aware of the differences between people (for instance when she travelled to Bulgaria), you went to the USA, to Idaho and realized how different life in the USA and Europe is. You saw several US states too, your German-American family of your dear husbant in Texas and some wild parks. You have worked hard and earned your status. You were very active in maintaining and putting content into the various Polish culture websites and Forums, and your daughter has the same Pan-European mix my nephew and niece from Milwaukee have. My Chicago nephew and niece, children of her sister are 100% Polish-American, because both families are of pure Polish background. Maybe some generations back, but you have those Polish-American families who marry with Polish-American families. Both the parents of my cousins were born and raised in Poland, studied, worked and lived as adults in Poland, before they wen't to the USA seperately and later met eachother there and married. These cousins lived in a Polish Catholic family, with a Polish culture at home. Polish language, Polish food, Polish culture, Polish books, Polish customs, Polish traditions and a life connection to Poland. My aunt lived for a while with her daughters when they were little in Poland at the apartment of her parents. So in that way the connection and memories of these women, my Milwaukee and Chicago cousins, to Poland only became stronger. Outside the home they were normal, American kids and teenagers, speaking English, having American schoolmates and friends. Inside their home, their father was a very traditional, strict (conservative) and old fashionate Roman-Catholic. Even to such an extend that he feared the outside influence of the Godless, American youth culture and the secular American society (of the sixtees and seventies). In a way he wanted to maintain the Polish Roman-Cathlic life and tradition in the USA. He wanted his kids to live like Poles in Poland, but they lived in the USA. That was the reality and made my cousins who they are, Americans with a Polish (very, very Polish) background. They speak Polish, they can read Polish, they can write Polish, have contacts with Poles and Polish-Americans in Polish and travel to Poland regulary. They maintain the Polish family connection. I don't. Because I don't speak Polish and because I feel a distance. I am Dutch, half Polish and never had close contacts with my Polish family, except my Polish grandparents. So my situation is different than the situation of my dear and wonderful Polish-American cousins. God Bless them, they have a wonderful mix of an American and Polish-Americian identity. Their Roman-Catholicism is not just Roman-Catholicism, but the Polish Roman-Catholicism. I my opinion Polish Roman-Catholicism is nearly another faith than my own Dutch Roman-Catholicism or the Roman-Catholicism of the Belgians, Frennch, Irish, Austrians and Slovaks. Because in Poland Roman-Catholic culture, secular (pagan) slave culture and Modern culture have merged into the present day Polish culture and identity.
Ron could probably explain very well his Slovak-American version of this or the typical Slovak-American culture and community. He knows Slovakia and is taking Slovak lessons today overthere in Bratislava.
Ron, I repeat Jaga's question, you must have some sort of feeling at home in Bratislava? It must be different than Alaska, with it's European climate, but there must be some traces of Slovak roots in you that must give you some sort of feeling at home over there.
You survived the first week of school, learned a fair amount, ran across things you didn't learn the first time you haven't nailed down the second time, and have some things that you have learned! How difficult is Slovak for a non native speaker? I hope you can get along with the young students and their noise. It's good that you are doing this. It takes effort, time and energy for people of a certain age to learn things. We aren't teenagers or in our twenties anymore. The one with the persistence wins! I wish I had your determination in learning Polish.
Cheers, Pieter
P.S.- I wonder if any of you recognise the kind of Polish-American family with direct Polish roots in the USA? Jaga, John, Nicetoe, Bob, Ron, Gardenmoma, Nathanael or others?
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Post by karl on Jul 12, 2013 17:00:49 GMT -7
Pieter
Your investiagtive report was very fasinating of accuracy and very well presented. It was a demonstration of your skill in reading people and taking mental notes. There is nothing wrong or improper with your management of information, simply shows the high degree of attention to your friends and the care you have for them..
You will be missed in your abscense, but also, happy for you with your opportunity to spend some time for your self and with friends in camping.The Ardens,is a very beutiful area very excellent for camping and to be away for a bit from busy life we make for our selves..If to be near Eupen, then not so far from Aachen.
Enjoy now to refresh both the body and spirit.
Travel in good spirit and be safe.
Your Friend
Karl
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Post by pieter on Jul 12, 2013 21:41:24 GMT -7
Thank you Karl, I wish you well and hope you recover fine and enjoy your 'free' weeks too.
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Post by Jaga on Jul 13, 2013 21:01:26 GMT -7
Pieter, very interesting remarks. Not sure I understood all subtle remarks, but I agree that we need to live in a reality of where we are. We cannot expect our kids to stay completely Polish if we are not there. It would just be impossible. We cannot create a different reality. Ela is speaking much better Polish than a year ago since we practice more. To tell you the truth, I had to take some time away from the forum and internet and just spend it with her. We also read some Polish legends, but I understand that she is a full-American girl and she needs to feel comfortable where she is... and not to leave in some imaginary world. Different access to travels and mass media changes the idea of national cultures even more. We will see how this would play out in the near future.
Pieter, have a nice stay in the mountains and send us some pictures!
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Post by pieter on Jul 14, 2013 4:39:39 GMT -7
Pieter, very interesting remarks. Not sure I understood all subtle remarks, but I agree that we need to live in a reality of where we are. We cannot expect our kids to stay completely Polish if we are not there. It would just be impossible. We cannot create a different reality. Ela is speaking much better Polish than a year ago since we practice more. To tell you the truth, I had to take some time away from the forum and internet and just spend it with her. We also read some Polish legends, but I understand that she is a full-American girl and she needs to feel comfortable where she is... and not to leave in some imaginary world. Different access to travels and mass media changes the idea of national cultures even more. We will see how this would play out in the near future. Pieter, have a nice stay in the mountains and send us some pictures! Jaga, I ment that all people are different people, but they are made of the families they come from, clans, tribes and people. Some are ethnic and religious like the majority of their own country or region. Others are an ethnic and cultural mix like me and for instance Karl (German with a Danish mother and maybe accent) and your dougther Ella (with her Polish and German roots) It is probably easier to be ethnic 100 procent like the locals in Europe, the national peoples identity. In Europe next to national identities there are strong regional and even local identities and sentiments. For instance the Silesian identity in Poland and the Frisian in the Netherlands and Germany. I am in the German section of the Belgian Ardens 3 kilometer from Eupen. My tent is standing near a stream in a wood on a very relaxed camping owned by a German Belgian who spreaks Dutch with a German accent, French, German and English. My group is a Dutch Holistic group. And we have a theme week over here: 'Discovering yourself'. I love the Ardens, the mountains, stream, woods and air. Cheers, Pieter
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Post by pieter on Jul 14, 2013 5:08:13 GMT -7
It is difficult to type on nu I-phone, so I Will make mistakes!
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