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Post by pieter on Jul 24, 2014 0:53:05 GMT -7
Dutch start diplomatic offensive to secure MH17 site, troops an optionThursday 24 July 2014Police forensic expertsThe Netherlands has begun a major diplomatic offensive to send possibly hundreds of soldiers and police forensic experts to Ukraine to investigate the downing of Malaysia Airways flight MH17, the Volkskrant said on Thursday. Ministers reportedly discussed the plan in a 2.5 hour meeting on Wednesday evening, at the end of the national day of mourning for the dead. In total, 298 people died in the disaster, including 193 Dutch citizens. The group would secure the area where the plane came down to ensure vital evidence is not removed from the crash site in the rebel held area of Ukraine and that any remaining bodies can be taken away, the Volkskrant said. DilemmaThe Dutch government wants to bring the remaining victims home while at the same time ensuring pro-Russian rebels do not attack the investigatorsThe biggest dilemma facing ministers, the Volkskrant says, is that it wants to ensure the remaining victims are brought home while at the same time ensuring pro-Russian rebels do not attack the investigators. The cabinet is trying to win guarantees from all parties involved but does not want to depend on third parties to protect the investigators, sources have told the paper. ‘ It is very likely this mission will taken place in the not to distant future,’ one source said. ‘ If it appears the researchers cannot work safely, then you want to have military protection as an option, so this is plan B,’ said another. ‘ I expect a briefing statement in the short term.’ UkraineForeign affairs minister Frans Timmermans has already briefed parliamentary party leaders on the potential risks of such a mission but is not ensured of total political support, the paper says. On Thursday, Timmermans is traveling to Ukraine with his Australian counterpart Julie Bishop. Australia lost 36 nationals when the Boeing 77 was downed a week ago. ‘ We must secure the site of the crash,’ Bishop told Australian media. ‘ We must ensure that the investigators and those that have the gruesome task of identifying body remains are able to do that in safety, unfettered without any tampering from anyone.’ Asked to confirm if sending peacekeepers was an option, Bishop would only say ‘ we are looking at the most effective way of securing that site’, the Australian Financial Review reported. The Telegraaf points out that Dutch and Australian troops have worked together closely in Afghanistan for years. Meanwhile, Dutch forensic experts in Kharkiv are preparing more bodies for transport back to the Netherlands. A further 74 are expected to arrive by plane on Thursday. Dutch and Australian foreign ministers Frans Timmermans Julie Bishop
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Post by karl on Jul 24, 2014 8:07:51 GMT -7
Pieter
Just some thoughts as a factor of consideration in the body of this situation as proposed. Of course, we as little people have very little enfluence if any to the decisions of our respective goverments. We have though, a very possible volatile situation upon the table of possibles in this matter.
The paramilitary that is in control in the area of the crash, are for the most part, comprised of individuals of some what suspect people with varying training from professional military training and experience to street thug mentality. It would possibly be conductive to success of sending after the fact investigation teams in the manner of diplomatic consideration, but not by the currant Ukrainian authority. For these people have past demonstrated by repeat failures and lack of demonstrated authority in control of their own country.
At this present time and in the reality of the situation. The person of positive leadership would be the person of: Putin, for he holds the power of control and to what ever he wishes in this area. In this manner, there would not be the charge of invasion forces of the Netherlands into Ukrainian soverign territory, if as similar, to give notice to the currant Ukrainian government of the event as insured by The Russian President, Putin in sponsorship.
Nothing is for nothing though, this would in self be commensurate with something in return to Mr. Putin for his consideration. This is/would be between the authority of The Netherland and Mr. Putin, all others needs be to stay out.
Karl
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Post by pieter on Jul 24, 2014 9:28:21 GMT -7
Karl,
The problem is that the Dutch have very little confidence in Mr. Putin. The Dutch government and people (population) doesn't trust Vladimir Putin. He is seen as a shrewd, cunningly, Machiavellian. A KGB man who can't be trusted. The Russian public may appreciate Putin’s coolness and decisiveness under pressure. For instance in the case of the Chechen wars and when he reduced the power of Russia’s unpopular financiers and media tycoons—the so-called “oligarchs”. But after that he helped or was supported by "Putin Loyal" other "oligarchs".
They saw how he acted in the Crimean situation, they remember that he didn't prevent the Russian rebels to violate the rights of the victims of the crash/exploded plane, to have a dignified repatriation. Cooperation was not possible, European-, Dutch-, International and other functionaries were hindered in their work; to examin the place where the plan debri, bodies, body parts and the belongings of the victims fell. The Dutch people consider Putin to be Pro-Separatist rebel forces, and therefor not a reliable caretaker and manager of the safety, control and transparency at the crash site.
I personally that only heavy and thourough International pressure from Western diplomats, ministers of foreign affairs, prime-ministers and organisations like the EU, OSCE (the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe), the United Nations Security Council, the Council of Europe, and close allies of the Netherlands and Australia (individual countries) can improve the situation. The United Nations Security Council will cooperate if the Western allies of the Netherlands and Australia in it; France, the United Kingdom and the United States of America will back those two nations. Russia and China (and allie of the Russian Federation) will not back a securing of the site of the crash by an International Mission lead by the Netherlands and Australia. Russia will oppose foreign Western troops (partly NATO troops; in the case of the Dutch) on the soil of allies of Russia. The 'Russian' controled Eastern-Ukraine.
Cheers, Pieter
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Post by pieter on Jul 27, 2014 14:57:08 GMT -7
Dutch drop Ukraine military mission plan: too dangerous says PMSunday 27 July 2014The uniform of a member of the Dutch military police, the MarechausseeThe Dutch cabinet has dropped its plans to send a military mission to secure the site of the crash of Malaysia Airways flight MH17, saying it would be too dangerous. Such a mission would mean other countries getting involved in a regional conflict, prime minister Mark Rutte told reporters, following a cabinet meeting on Sunday. The repatriation of the bodies of the 298 people who died when the Boeing 777 was apparently hit by a missile over a week ago, remains the Dutch priority. That aim will be endangered if the situation in the region escalates, Rutte said. Scenarios‘ We have discussed all the scenarios over the past few days, including with military experts,’ Rutte said. ‘ We have to state that a military mission could lead to an escalation, to a dangerous situation, and that could get in the way of our main target, that of bringing back the victims.’ ‘ Our conclusion is that it would not be realistic to aim for military dominance using an international mission,’ Rutte said. ExpertsSympathizers hug in front of a flower tribute at the entrance to the Korporaal van Oudheusdenkazerne army barracks, in Hilversum, Netherlands, on July 24. Victims of the Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 crash in the Ukraine will be identified at the facility. (Photo: Jerry Lampen, EPA)However, the Netherlands does intend to send 60 more police experts and 60 unarmed military police officers to the region, Rutte said. A further 100 people could also be dispatched to eastern Ukraine if necessary. Australia has now sent 50 police officers to the region and may increase that by 100. Malaysia is sending 68, Rutte said in his statement. FightingThe 23 Dutch forensic experts already send to Ukraine cancelled their plans to visit the disaster site at the weekend because of fighting between pro-Russia separatists and government troops in the area. ‘ There is fighting going on. We can't take the risk,’ Alexander Hug, of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe ( OSCE), is quoted as saying by the BBC. So far, 227 coffins containing the remains of the victims have been sent for identification to the Netherlands. The first victim has been identified, officials said at the weekend. Flowers and mementos left by local residents at the crash site of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 are pictured near the settlement of Rozspyne in the Donetsk region © DutchNews.nl
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Post by karl on Jul 27, 2014 19:01:26 GMT -7
Pieter
It is very prudent of decision brought about by Mr. Mark Rutte with cancelling any military mission into the crash site. For this would be a bone fide as a military incursion into Ukraine by who ever rather be the separatist and/or Russian, Mr. Putin. No sense providing and additional bone to chew on by those two.
With response to one of the photos of flowers being left by local people upon the crash site to pay respect to the victim dead. This was very caring and filled with respect by virtue of their actions. Evidence of presence of humanity that most people are good, just the few of the many that are defective.
Karl
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Post by Jaga on Jul 27, 2014 21:41:11 GMT -7
Pieter, dor Dutch this is really a learning experience, sad one, still, I think they are doing everything they can in prudent way. I kind of agree with Eric
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Post by pieter on Jul 28, 2014 2:49:53 GMT -7
Dear Jaga,
Yes, it is, it is a lesson for the Dutch in international disaster management, in Eastern-Europoean affairs, in geopolitics and in being part of humanity (the world). We were a small and international country. Now due to this incident we have become an even more international country. The accident showed our connection to Asia, our Indonesian heritage (colonial past), and the fact that a lot of Dutch people fly and travel to Asia and have Asian partners. A lot of Dutch guys have Asian or half asian (Indo) wives and therefor a connection with Indonesia, or with Thailand, Burma or the Phillipines.
There were quite a lot of Dutch asians on board too. Families and individuals. People get an impression that only white, European (and Australians with European roots) people died on the plane, but there were a lot of Asians amongst them too.
Cheers, Pieter
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