Jaga what is the solution for the Israeli Palestine?

[pieter]

Jaga,

Since I was an early teenager I have followed the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I admid that in the beginning I was Pro-Israel. That had to do that the Israeli's were supported by the USA and the Arab nations (including the PLO) by the SovjetUnion. I had a Pro-American and Pro-Israeli start. Later (at the age of 17/18; 1988-1989) I discovered Palestinian authors, and learned about the Palestinian history and the Naqba ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba ), the 1948 Palestinian exodus. I was stil slightly Pro-Israel, but not zionist. I wanted to go to a Kibbutz to get to know Israel and the Israeli people. In never did that, because I moved to Amsterdam and Arnhem to study and work. A complicated factor and even confusing factor for me was the history, present and future of Poland and Israel. I discovered that Polish and Jewish history were intermingled. And I discovered that there were and are philosemitic and anti-semitic Poles.

Back to Israel and the Middle-east. My perspective was not 100% jewish, Israel and Western anymore. I had learned about secular Palestinian activists and activism, Palestinian culture and the emerging Palestinian Islamic movements, Hamas and Islamic Jihad. I learned that both Israeli's and Palestinians weren't united people, but polarized amongst themselves. And that made and makes both people weak and strong in the same time. In the Palestinian territories the Palestinian cause was and is weakened by Palestinian infighting and polarization. And that is a typical Arab phenomenon, because the Arab tribes of the desert and the modern Arab nations and even civilized city arabs over and over again compete with eachoter, fight each other and clash. The weakness, nepotism, despotism and divided Arab and Muslim world harms the Palestinian cause.

In the same time the Jewish world is more divided, poralized and fractured than ever. Israeli's and Diaspora jews are drifting apart. You see the division between the conservative and nationalistic Israeli's on one side and the liberal/progressive American and European jews. More and more European and American jews feel disconnected to Israel. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is an anti-thesis, a continuating division between two peoples on one small peace (territory) of land. The longer Israel existst the more Israeli's become different from Diaspora jews. Israeli's are a new kind of people, who live in the New Hebrew culture and speak the new hebrew language, Ivrit Chadashah (Modern Hebrew or Israeli Hebrew). Due to the semitic language and character of the new culture, and the mixing of the European heritage Ashkenazi jews with the Sephardic and Mizrachi, North-African, Berber-, Arab-, Persian (Iranian)-, Kurd-, and Turkic jews, the Israeli's in time will become increasingly more Middle-eastern. In the same time they, will be influenced and changed by the Israeli arab, Druze and Beduin neighbors.

Today Israel and Palestine (Gaza and the West-Bank [Samaria and Judea]) are in a terrible shape due to the fact of constant bloodshed, conflict, rocket launchings, artillery barrages, bombing, destruction, fear, anger and pain. We know that the Israeli's are superior in political power, military might and financial-economical influece and wealth. The Palestinians however, although they are the weaker power, can't be defeated. Due to decades of occupation, military rule, oppression (by both Israeli and Palestinian authorities, and the Arab regimes in the countries where the Palestinians live and the large refugee camps are) the Palestinians are desperate, angry, sad, feeling abandoned, alienated, frustrated, irritated, humiliated, and set asside. They don't get support from the Arabs, nor from other Muslim nations. (like Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, Chechenia or the Bosniaks) Other Arab nations see the Palestinian minorities as 'a problem' like the Israeli's see them too.

The Palestinians are second class citizens in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Egypt and the Gulf states (Saoudi Arabia, Kuwayt, the United Arab Emirates, Dubai and etc.). Maybe only in Jordan, where they form half of the population, they are treated as equal citizens, but also seen as a demographic threat for the non-Palestinian population of the Hashemite kingdom.

Jaga, what do you see as the solution for Israel and Palestine? Do you favor one, bi-national state like some Arabs, jews and Westerners do? Do you favor a two state solution, or a peaceful dismantlement of the state of Israel, like some of the Ultra-Orthodox Hassidic jews want? Will Israel change it's policies if the support of billions of American dollars annually will stop? Or will Israel become increasingly more isolationalist, arch conservative, hard core militarist and a warmonger? What is the solution for Israel and Palestine.

Is there a chance for peace in the Middle-east after the assasination of Yitzhak Rabin (1922–1995) and the death if Yasser Arafat (1929 – 2004). Are there or will there be new Israeli and Arab leaders who will strive for peace, make the necessary concessions and have the willpower and determination to jointly work on a long lasting and real peace solution?

Ofcourse other Forum members; John, Karl, Eric, Kaima, Nicetoe, Jeanne and Jim may react too. I ask these questions, because Jaga seems to be the most passionate, involved and concerned about Israel and the Middle east. Israel also pops up in threads/subjects with other themes and subjects.

Cheers,
Pieter

[Jaga]

Pieter,

I read your post with interest. I think that the best would be two state solution, if it is still possible, since I have heard that Israel is building so much in Western Bank that soon there would be no way to even think about separate states. I am not for dissolving Israel. I think, it would help, if the world would take a fresh look into Israel and stop supporting unconditionally everything they do.
I am conflicted about pres. Obama and disappointed that he is not using his influence to change the policy of supporting Israel which only leads to more arrogant behavior of Israel.
My mother, who was originally from Silesia, was pro-Israeli. My dad who grew up in Central Poland sometimes when he was really upset was a bit anti-semitic, so my family was also conflicted about what was going on there.

+++They don't get support from the Arabs, nor from other Muslim nations. (like Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, Chechenia or the Bosniaks) Other Arab nations see the Palestinian minorities as 'a problem' like the Israeli's see them too. +++

WHY THIS IS HAPPENING? Why wealthy Saudi Arabia does not help Palestinians?

+++ Maybe only in Jordan, where they form half of the population, they are treated as equal citizens, but also seen as a demographic threat for the non-Palestinian population of the Hashemite kingdom.+++

Jordan is really good about Israel and Palestine. They try to be very open-minded and help as much as they can. I also saw the article by Queen Rania about Gaza. It is a very good article comparing Gaza to dystopian land:

www.huffingtonpost.com/rania-al-abdullah/gaza-the-makings-of-a-mod_b_5615260.html
Gaza: The Makings of a Modern Day Dystopia

Pieter, it seems that Europeans cannot even protest Israel's policy of killing civilians since they are called anti-semitic. Is Israel's propaganda and influence that huge that there is no any corner of the world free from that?

[karl]

Pieter

I think perhaps you have an excellent understanding of The Arab approach to life and the people of Israel. Withen the confines of this subject though, my self am some what hesitant to elaborate upon, in as much to the present situation with Russia. For am I not Polish, nor Israeli, nor Russian, just only my self for how ever that may be for I have no horn to toot nor a vested interest in either. Even though it is contrary to common feelings at this time, but still my self would throw my lot with the Israelis. Very few people are perfectly correct in all things, with this, The Israelis are not perfect, but are dealing with the world they had entered so long past in years.

In this, you are most admirable with your family background that is just and of high standing as to be counted. For in this manner, is your blue print of success and ease of line crossing rather be it of Western or Eastern peoples with your Polish family background.

My personal views I realize are not perhaps very acceptable with past comments of currant situational issues with Russians and Israeli/Palestinian issues. For every Roman coin will be another side that must be counted and with this, is people. If we are worth our salt, we must stand up and be counted, for otherwise, what are we?

With Best Respect to all

Karl

[Jaga]

Pieter, Karl,

below is the analysis why Arab states are silent.... they are just afraid of revolution in their countries, so they prefer Israel's killing Palestinians:

Arab Leaders, Viewing Hamas as Worse Than Israel, Stay Silent

www.nytimes.com/2014/07/31/world/middleeast/fighting-political-islam-arab-states-find-themselves-allied-with-israel.html?action=click&contentCollection=Middle%20East&module=MostEmailed&version=Full®ion=Marginalia&src=me&pgtype=article

CAIRO — Battling Palestinian militants in Gaza two years ago, Israel found itself pressed from all sides by unfriendly Arab neighbors to end the fighting.

Not this time.

After the military ouster of the Islamist government in Cairo last year, Egypt has led a new coalition of Arab states — including Jordan, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates — that has effectively lined up with Israel in its fight against Hamas, the Islamist movement that controls the Gaza Strip. That, in turn, may have contributed to the failure of the antagonists to reach a negotiated cease-fire even after more than three weeks of bloodshed.

“The Arab states’ loathing and fear of political Islam is so strong that it outweighs their allergy to Benjamin Netanyahu,” the prime minister of Israel, said Aaron David Miller, a scholar at the Wilson Center in Washington and a former Middle East negotiator under several presidents.

...
Although Egypt is traditionally the key go-between in any talks with Hamas — deemed a terrorist group by the United States and Israel — the government in Cairo this time surprised Hamas by publicly proposing a cease-fire agreement that met most of Israel’s demands and none from the Palestinian group. Hamas was tarred as intransigent when it immediately rejected it, and Cairo has continued to insist that its proposal remains the starting point for any further discussions.

...
“Sisi is worse than Netanyahu, and the Egyptians are conspiring against us more than the Jews,” said Salhan al-Hirish, a storekeeper in the northern Gaza town of Beit Lahiya. “They finished the Brotherhood in Egypt, and now they are going after Hamas.”
Egypt and other Arab states, especially the Persian Gulf monarchies of Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, are finding themselves allied with Israel in a common opposition to Iran, a rival regional power that has a history of funding and arming Hamas.

[pieter]

Jaga,

Thank you very much for your open, clear and honest reply. Now I understand you even better. We are not so different from each other, except the fact that non of my two parents had slightly anti-semitic feelings due to the policies of Israel. My mother is the most Pro-Palestinian person in the family and critical towards Israel. But as an emancipated woman she also is critical towards Arab muslims, Islamism (Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbhollah, the Muslim Brotherhood, and the developments in the Arab and Muslim world) and the fact that men and women aren't equal in the Arab and Muslim world. My father is the Pro-Israeli guy, but he doesn't endorse all the massacres of the Palestinians. Like typical Israel supporters he defends the Israeli right 'to defend itself', but within reasonable boundaries. The massacres of 2008, 2012 and 2014 concern him. And Israel is not without sins or faults in his eyes.

I am inbetween them. Idealistically I would favor a Bi-national state. Realistically I know that probably only a two state solution would be acceptable for both the Israeli's and the Palestinians. The Israeli jews don't want to be a jewish minority in an Arab majority state. You are right that coming to a two state solution will become increasingly difficult "Since, Israel is continuing to build so much settlements in the West-Bank." The few thousand or hundreds of settlers of Gaza could be dismantled in the Gaza Strip in 2005, but that won't be possible with hundreds of thousands of Israeli's living in the West-Bank settlements all over the West-Bank, who also get the support of rightwing Israeli's in Israel itself. Egypt and Saoudi-Arabia are secret allies of Israel, without even admitting that. Their silence and policies prove that.

Now not only the division between the Israeli's and the Palestinians is a problem, also the division between the Palestinians and fellow Arabs. What strikes me, is that when I see for instance Palestinian women, who mourn their dead or wounded loved ones, and complain about their situation in Gaza, shout slogans against the Arab regimes and government, like; 'I hope that God will punish you like we are targeted now.' Or 'Where are you, Arab brethren, have you forgotten us?" Will the Palestinians become the new Kurds, the Gypsies of the Middle east, or the Eastern-European Ashkenazi jews in pogrom times (18th and 19th century Europe) in the Ukraine and Russia of Czarist imperial Russia?

Here maybe two interesting articles about Israeli's and the attitude of the Arab world towards the Palestinians:

www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/07/gaza-no-innocent-victims-2014726173059907457.html

www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/31/mideast-gaza-region-idUSL6N0Q54LT20140731

Cheers,
Pieter

[pieter]

Karl,

I will always respect your opinion and contributions to this Forum. Again this reply is interesting, because it shows your rather neutral, calculating mind and your view on the situation. I would like that we could speak all our free opinions and show our true motivations and solidarity with whatever cause. But today to my sadness I see and feel people do not feel free the speak out or have a free debate in Europe. Radical Pro-Palestinian Muslim migrants and leftist politicians and media are very fierce in Europe. Yesterday, a Dutch woman in Amsterdam, who had a Israeli flag on her balcony, was beaten up. She reported it to the police. The same the other way around. A Palestinian flag on the house of a well known Dutch personality, cause a lot of turmoil a few years, back. It was back then the wife of the then president of the Dutch national bank, Gretta Duisenberg. Her flag was hanging in a neighborhood where a lot of jews live. Her jewish neighbors were offended by the flag.

Europe continues to be polarized about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and political parties and some media choose sides. Fact is that serious media have good reporting about what is happening in Gaza, and quality-research journalism can't be dominated or controlled by Israeli propaganda or censorship. "There may have been more solidarity on the streets of Paris and New York than in Cairo or Beirut," the Reuters article said. That says something about a changing world.

Cheers,
Pieter

P.S.- Paris and New York stand also for other Western cities like Amsterdam, the Hague, Rotterdam, Berlin, Brussels and London, where there were also Pro-Palestinian demonstrations.

[pieter]

No place to hide for children of war in Gaza and Syria

www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28513709

time.com/3012088/child-death-toll-gaza/

[Jaga]

Pieter,

I am glad that your parents are so reasonable. I am also critical towards muslim extremists, but the views of dead children in Gaza are just abhorrent. Israel's propaganda is using the same primitive propaganda, frankly, I would expect them to be a bit smarter and sophisticated. I do not understand why so many Americans are for it.

I also found some very interesting articles today if you would have a chance to read through. The second one gives the perspective about American guy of Jewish origin, very open-minded. I liked it, read the answer, except that nobody supports these other countries attrocities like Israel's:

Peter Schwartz responds to Brian Eno's open letter on Israel-Gaza crisis
www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/peter-schwartz-responds-to-brian-enos-open-letter-on-israelgaza-crisis-30479696.html


02 AUGUST 2014
Dear Brian and friends, I am writing to respond to your note about Gaza and how America is responding. It deserves a response.
My feelings and the actual realities are complex on several levels; the realities of the Arab-Israeli history and conflicts, global politics and modern American history/demographics. All three levels interact to create the current situation. And to understand the US posture you have to consider the history. Let me say, that, as you know, I am an immigrant and child of Holocaust survivors. I am culturally Jewish, but with no religious or spiritual inclinations, an atheist. And I believe that creating the Jewish state of Israel was a historic mistake that is likely to destroy the religion behind it. The actions nation states take to assure their survival are usually in contradiction to any moral values that a religion might espouse. And that contradiction is now very evident in Israel’s behaviour. Israel will destroy Judaism.

First, the history has two important intersecting threads, Zionism and the end of the Ottoman Empire. Zionism began near the end of the 19th century as a response to a millennium of anti-Semitism in Eastern Europe. An end to the diaspora and a return to the biblical homeland were seen as the only hope of escaping the persistent repression of places such as Hungary, Ukraine, Russia, etc. The British government with its Balfour declaration (1917) and the League of Nations Palestine Mandate (1922) gave impetus to that hope. And of course, the Second World War and the Holocaust sealed the deal. The murder of six million Jews was seen as sufficient reason to pursue a Jewish state, and the UN granted that wish with the partition of Palestine into Jewish and Arab states in 1947. The seven Arab states declared war and urged the Palestinians to flee. After defeating the Arab armies, Israel made it very hard for them return. Hence we ended up with a large Palestinian refugee population.

Those Arab states themselves were the result of a combination of British/French artistry in drawing the maps of the post-Ottoman world as well as the subsequent tribal military campaigns that left the Saudis in charge of the Arabian peninsula (vast oil wealth soon to be found) and the Hashemites driven up into Transjordan. Other than the war with Israel, the conflicts and rivalries among the various Arab and Persian factions have shaped Middle Eastern and North African politics ever since then.

Over the subsequent decades following the 1948 war, there was a persistent Arab bombing campaign and two more large-scale Arab attacks on Israel, 1967 and 1973. Until the mid-1970s, Israel was seen as having the moral high ground based on the Holocaust and Arab behaviour. But beginning with the Israeli incursion into Lebanon in the early 1980s, that moral position began to erode.
Israel’s behaviour in Lebanon was the first major example of aggressive action and attacks against vulnerable populations. Israel began to develop a more right-wing and aggressive political faction of which Netanyahu is the worst current example. The settlements in Arab territory in the West Bank are the direct result of that evolution (and, of course, the mass migration of the 1990s mainly from Russia). Suicide bombings and missile attacks were the Arab response. Walling themselves in was yet another ironic Israeli response. Today’s horrors are a continuing extension of those conflicts following a ceasefire of a few years.

Once Israel declared itself a Jewish state in 1948, the Palestinians had only three options: accept a division of the land into two states, accept being second-class citizens in the Israeli state or perpetual conflict because they could not win. The Arab states chose the third option because it is in their interest to maintain unity against their common enemy, Israel. They could even share a common enemy with the hated Persian Shia in Iran. So rather than helping the Palestinians to develop by investing in education, healthcare, jobs and infrastructure, etc. the Arab states, especially Saudi Arabia, help to keep them poor but well armed. Palestinian refugees would remain a festering sore in the Middle East to remind the world of Israel’s perfidy. And any aid that did come ended up in corrupt pockets, not in helping development.

The obvious counter example was Jordan, which developed itself, with little help from its Arab brethren and eventually made grudging peace with Israel. The difference in Jordan was good Arab leadership that recognised that Israel was not going way and war for ever was not a good development policy.

At the geopolitical level, several threads played out. The UN became a place where the Israel and Arab conflicts became a symbolic pawn in the Cold War, especially in the Security Council with the US on the Israeli side and the USSR on the Arab side (with exceptions, ie the Saudis). That hardened the US position and associated in American minds Israel with our side and the Arabs with the other guys.

Even though I have no support for the Israeli position, I find the opposition to Israel questionable in its failure to be similarly outraged by a vast number of other moral horrors in the recent past and currently active. Just to name a few: Cambodia, Tibet, Sudan, Somalia, Nicaragua, Mexico, Argentina, Liberia, Central African Republic, Uganda, North Korea, Bosnia, Kosovo, Venezuela, Syria, Egypt, Libya, Zimbabwe and, especially right now, Nigeria.


_____
this was the answer to the letter:

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/brian-eno-on-the-israelgaza-crisis-why-does-america-continue-its-blind-support-of-this-onesided-exercise-in-ethnic-cleansing-30479695.html
Brian Eno on the Israel-Gaza crisis: Why does America continue its blind support of this one-sided exercise in ethnic cleansing?

[pieter]

Excellent article of Peter Schwartz Jaga. If you look at my recent postings on this Forum, you can see that my position goes in his direction. One critical remark I have. The creation of the Jewish state of Israel today can be seen as a historic mistake, but in 1948 the world was different, the mindset of the people was different, and their perspective of reality was different. It was three years after then end of the Second World War. Both the USA and the SovjetUnion, important members of the UN security council today, voted in favor of the creation of Israel.

Peter Schwartz excellently describes the differences of Israel in the fourties, fifties and sixties and the Israel of the eighties, nineties and the beginning of the 21th century. The world view on Israel, Palestine and the Arab world has changed in the past 66 years. Alliances have changed, coalitions have changed, countries, peoples and regimes have changed. Geopolitics is a dynamic, constantly changing phenomenon. What is so difficult about the Israali-Palestinian conflict and the other conflicts in the region is the fact that it is so difficult to change it.

What is of my concern today is the fact that Salafist Jihadi Islamism is spreading like wildfire in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt (the Sinai desert), Palestine. (ISIS, AL Qiada and the Al Nusra front are competing with Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP's Abu Ali Mustapha Brigades and PLO's Fatah) In general my concern is political and religious extremism in that part of the world. The Islamism of Muslim Jihadists and Pan-Arab Arab socialists and Arab nationalist movements on one side and Jewish and Christian fundamentalist extremism on the other side. The question of the Holy land (Israel/Palestine is holy for Christians, jews and Muslims) and Jerusalem will remain a fragile, vulnerable, sensitive and explosive subject for ever. I just saw a Dutch documentry in the series 'Zoek de Verschillen' (search for the differences) of a devout Dutch Moroccan Sunni Muslim Arab, called Mohamed Mejaiti, student fiscal law and economics at the vocational university, Hogeschool Amsterdam, who wants to specialize in Islamic banking; financial advice and Islamic finance. Mohamed Mejaiti visited Israeli beduins, fellow Muslims, in the Negev desert. He is an orthodox and conservative Muslim and Pro-Palestinian. He didn't choose his destination by himself. The concept of the program was a sort of blind dat with the subject. Muslims visiting foreign Muslim families in a different country with a different culture. You see the difficulties Mohammed has when he goes to Israel. First of all at his start in Amsterdam with his Arab name and Arab looks. He is checked for hours in Amsterdam at the check in of the El Al section of the Airport, then he is stopped, interrogated for four hours in Ben Gurion Airport in Tel Aviv. After that he travels with a taxi to the Negev desert where he gets a warm welcome of the Israeli beduins. He sees that they are devout and real Muslims, but can't understand that they as Muslims are volunteers in the Israeli army. He is accepted as an Moroccan Muslim brother, but the cultural differences are huge. He finaly understands that the beduins are loyal to the state they live in (the same thing counts for the Druze people who live in Israel, Lebanon and Syria by the way), but it stays an uneasy thiung for him that the sons of the family wear Israeli army uniforms, and that there are hanging Israeli flags in the house, and photo's of their service in the Israeli army. He was very confused and had great difficulties with the situation from his personal ethical point of view. But accepted them as fellow muslims. The beautiful thing was that both sides learned something from the meeting. He was accepted by the Israeli beduins as a Pro-Palestinian Dutch Moroccan and he accepted them as Pro-Israeli Sunni Muslim beduin arabs. The Beduins finaly said that they would never fight against Islam, against their own religion. In their view they were fighting against extremists and terrorists. They differentiate between their own faith and allegiance and 'the Palestinian enemy of Hamas or Islamic Jihad'. This is their life, perspective and point of view. Ofcourse Mohammed had (has) a different view. But they parted as brothers, not as enemies. I wonder how Mohammed will view the present situation and think about his 'Israeli beduin brothers'.

Her is the documentry. Unfortunately in Dutch. But maybe the images speak for themselves?

www.npo.nl/zoek-de-verschillen/27-08-2012/NPS_1211913

Cheers,
Pieter