Hungarian Police at the border

[JustJohn or JJ]

[karl]

For which ever reason: Where there is a will, there is a way.

Karl

[Jaga]

If the sign would read instead of "Muslims" - "Jews" - this would be considered not only discrimination but racism and cruelty and ANTISEMTISM:

Here is how Hungarian police are keeping Muslims from crossing the board

Here is how Hungarian police are keeping Jews from crossing the board

[pieter]

You got a point there Jaga. I made that comparisson in the past. Some jews due to their heritage in the past see this comparisson and defend Muslim migrants and refugees. Because they know what racism, discrimination, exclusion, experiencing hatred of others directed at yourself, and xenophobia is. And not only jews, also some christians, humanists and even atheist people resist stereotypes, racist images, and xenophobia.

[karl]

Jaga and Pieter

I must correct my self for the previous post I am responsible for. The message from my mindset was not correct, for these crowds of people are individuals seeking safety from a war torn intolerable respective are for them selves and their families. Each has a story that may be common, but yet individual experience of what are they to do, where are they to go, how and what to expect and subject to the treatment from others.

They are people yet by shier numbers unimagined by their totals. Personally if emotion allows, I do feel very sorry for them, but then, reality sets in and that is how are they to be managed? And, these people are of a vastly different culture with their expectations that do not fit with our western life style. This then will be a future head ache to deal with.

The reality of what the Hungarians are conducting is to turn this human tide over to the Turkish Government that have been paid to do so by the tax euros off the brow sweat of working European people.

Karl

[Jaga]

Pieter,

yes. We need to wait until there would be enough Jews, like J Street, who would support the current politics of Israel. There are more and more.

Apr 17, 2016 14:11:41 GMT -7 pieter said:

You got a point there Jaga. I made that comparisson in the past. Some jews due to their heritage in the past see this comparisson and defend Muslim migrants and refugees. Because they know what racism, discrimination, exclusion, experiencing hatred of others directed at yourself, and xenophobia is. And not only jews, also some christians, humanists and even atheist people resist stereotypes, racist images, and xenophobia.

[pieter]

Europe is a divided continent right now Jaga, between Eurosceptists and Eu defenders, isolationalists and internationalists, between Pro-Palestinian people (mostly leftwingers, but also some right wingers and even far right people) and Pro-Israel people (right wingers, some leftwingers and another branch of the populist far right), between Ukraine supporters and Russia supporters, and people who are in between these two sides. For me nothing is black and white you have the nuance of grey shadows, anthracite and colors next to black and white.

National independence, sovereighnity, democracy and authonomy are important for European nations with their own languages, systems, structures, legal systems (trade laws and national law), way of doing things, heritage, customs, traditions and people. But in the same time the EU has also preserved the European alliance of states, human rights, the inner market which created wealth and prosperity, good European legislation and the improvement of the infrastructure in poorer parts of Europe (roads, highways, railways, subways, airports and etc.). I also think about the Erasmus exchange program in the European education system, security cooperation, monetary cooperation and one currency (the Euro), military cooperation, police cooperation (for instance between the Dutch, German and Belgian police. Dutch police is allowed to chance Dutch or international criminals who escape to Germany or Belgium and German or Belgian police will cooperate with them on their own soil). And etc, etc.

Israel and Palestine will remain a difficult subject which will continue to divide people. If Israel would be replaced by Palestine millions of Israeli Jews will move to Europe, the USA, Australia and South-Africa. If in a worst case scenario, Palestinians would be kicked out of the Westbank (Judea and Samaria), Israel (The Israeli Arabs) and Gaza the Middle East and Europe would have a huge problem. Lebanon would turn in another Syria, probably Jordan too, and ethnic tensions would create a dangerous situation in Europe, because the amount of Muslim migrants would become too large.

My peaceful desire and hope is that Israel on the long term would be a Jewish-Arab state with a Palestine element in it for the Palestians. Hard core zionists, fundamentalist Protestant Christians and some Pro-Israeli Populist European Nationalists, American Republicans and Democrats won't like it, but that will be probably the future. Of course only if the Jews and Arabs in the territory of the Ottoman and British Palestine and present day Israel, territory of the Palestinian Authority (PLO/ Fatah land in the Westbank) and the Hamas government in Gaza would be willing to coexist, cooperate, work together and unite. What people forget is that Jews and Arabs work together on a daily basis in Israel. For instance Jewish and Arab doctors, nurses and politicians. Idealistic Jews are member and even politicians of Arab Israeli parties who fight for The rights of Arabs in Israel. That is a reality we seldom see in the Western media. We only see negative news from Israel, Palestine and the Middle East. I wonder if a two state solution with Israel and Palestine will be reached, because the continued settlement building in the Westbank makes that two state option very difficult, next to the division of Palestine in Gaza and the Westbank and different opinions about a Palestinian state by Fatah (PLO) and Hamas.

Do we want a future Europe which looks like the Westbank, Gaza and Israel or not?

Cheers,
Pieter

P.S.- Unfortunately both Jewish nationalist called zionists and Arab Palestinian Arabs want 100% of the land of ancient Israel, Judea and Samaria, the land of the Canaanites and the Philistines. For Messianic Jews and Christians there is no place for Arab Muslims on Biblical heartland and it is a divine and biblical task in their eyes to make the land religious orthodox Jewish again. For Muslims Palestine/Israel is the Third holy place of Islam, and thus Israel/Palestine should be Muslim. fundamentalist Salafist Jihadi Muslims don't give a darn about Palestinian Nationalism or Palestine, they want Palestine and Israël to be part of the Caliphate. That's why Palestinian fighters clashend with ISIS and Al Qaida in Syria and Lebanon in the arena's of the Palestinian refugee Camps. Many Palestinians are secular leftwing nationalists. People of Fatah and the PFLP for instance.

[karl]

Apr 17, 2016 9:47:28 GMT -7 Jaga said:

If the sign would read instead of "Muslims" - "Jews" - this would be considered not only discrimination but racism and cruelty and ANTISEMTISM:

Here is how Hungarian police are keeping Muslims from crossing the board

Here is how Hungarian police are keeping Jews from crossing the board

My self am not sure what exactly is the issue here. Is the issue against Jewish people, the state of Israel or why Muslims are being targeted for reasons they are Muslims.

In the manner of discrimination against Muslims, is not so. The problem is the manner of ability of some states such as Hungary to afford to take in such numbers of these people. As for mentioned, The Turkish government has received more then ample funding to take in and provide for these refugees. In reality, this should be the job of the Saudies to provide and take in their fellow Arabs in their time of need, but as it is, the Saudies are simply sitting on their behinds and letting the situation simmer. For to speak of racism, best to vent against those Saudies responsible.

The house of Saudi would enjoy most, to see the fall of Syria and with joint association, to occupie the land in conjunction with US forces. The stye in the eye of that move is the Russian military.

It is to this manner, the American government is not exactly free from critism in relations to what has/is occurring in Denmark. It is the manner of illegal immigrants from Honduras and Guatemala.

Show and tell is provided with the following url:

www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration-idUSKBN0FK29N20140716

Karl

[pieter]

Dear Karl and Jaga,

The issue isn't Israel or Palestine over here, but the Syrian and Iraqi and Afghan refugees who flee to Europe. I haven't heard about Israel and Palestine for some while. Only every now and then short topics about conflicts, attacks and troubles in Israel, but people don't talk about that. We have heard so much and so long about Israel that people aren't surprised about what is going on. Most people have no connection or interest in Israel I think. Only a minority of Dutch jews, Israeli expats over here and some conservative Protestant christians have. Many of the refugees die on their long journey, in the mountains of Afghanistan, Iran or Turkey, or in the Aegean sea between Turkey and Greece, like the family of a friend of an Afghan colleage of mine. He struggled to save his wife, baby toddler and other little child, but saw them drowning in front of his eyes. Others died in the back of a truck or container due to lack of Oxygen, or due to violence of human traffickers, who are criminals.

The Hungarian, Greek, Macedonian, Serb, Croatian and Slovenian police are confronted with masses of people who all of a sudden are in front of them and who want to cross the border. Then you get chaotic scenes. To control and monitor the situation these South-Eastern European Balkan countries built fences and walls to control their and Europe's borders. The identity of the refugees must be checked, in a selection process 'real refugees' must be selected for allowance to an European country to stay and economical refugees from Morocco, Algeria, Tunesia, Pakistan, and Albania must be refufesed and sent back to their countries where no war and no civil war is taking place. Dutch Moroccans said about these Moroccan economical refugees, 'Sent them back, Morocco is poor, but you don't die there of hunger or thirst, and the government isn't that bad, we have a good king.'

Several things play at the same time. A difficult time for the European Union with the threat of Brexit (the leaving of Great-Britain; the Brits will vote in June), the Eurosceptic dissidents in the Democratic parties and the Rightwing and Leftwing Populist anti-European parties. Many European people are very ethnocentric, local-, regional or national oriented. They don't care much about the world, but are irritated about non-Western migrants, foreign European workers from Central- and Eastern-Europe and expats and annoying tourists who dominate large places like Amsterdam (there are even cheap tourists or long time stayers who live in cheep Amsterdam apartments to enjoy the liberties of Amsterdam, like Cannabis use -smoking Pot/Joints, and hang around. Amsterdam citizens are irritated about their noise and presence. Like conservative people were irritated about Hippies and Occupy Wall Street in the Past).

But the existence and presence of the refugees for some reason creates fear, anxiety, anger, frustration and irritation with a part of the population. I don't remember the resistance and hostility towards the refugees of the Bosnian, Croat and Kosovo wars, the Vietnamese boat refugees, the African refugees from Rwanda and Congo in the past. But today the mix of the Syrian civil war, and the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan in combination with the attacks in Toulouse, Paris, Brussels and Copenhagen makes people aware of dangers, threats and the risks which go with large scale migration of refugees from Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria to Western-Europe. The refugees are close by and visible. Not only on tv, on internet and radio, you see them on the street, on squares, in the parks and in the central train station. And in the same time the people suddenly more normal police presence and also the presence special police forces on Arnhem Central Station for instance.

This video's show two sides of the Arnhem situation. One is a demonstration against a new refugee center in Arnhem South, we have already a refugee center in a former prison, de Koepel, in Arnhem North. The second interview is with a refugee from the Koepel in Arnhem North and the last video is about Syrian refugees learning the Dutch language.







Cheers,
Pieter

[karl]

Pieter

Thank you for interceding for Jaga. The introduction of Jewish and Israelie subject into the mix was a bit confusing for the topic is no comparison to Israel.

It is most appreciated with your complete coverage of the situation in The Netherlands with the refugee issue. By all indications, the people are speaking and Government authority needs be to listion and make corrections to this issue.

This Islamic situation is very similar to the Swedish push for Denmark to bellie up to the same table of taking in such numbers of refugees they have done. But, they Sweds are paying the price with increased crime and public issues.

Hopefully, our respective leadership will come up with the correct answers in short time quick. If not, the people will decide what they wish for and our plate of troubles will begin on a bad scale.

Karl

[Jaga]

Karl, I did not see anything wrong with your post, so you did not need to apologize.

Pieter, Karl
referring to the division in Europe, I had a discussion with my best friend in Poland. We rarely discuss politics, I asked her, since she had four children, her son and my godson is getting married. She was concerned that her children are not religious. I refered to the fact that the church has a strange role in the politics now and it enhances divisions. She is against helping immigrants although her younger son supports it. She believes in the conspiracy theory about Smolensk's catastrophy.

[pieter]

Apr 17, 2016 9:47:28 GMT -7 Jaga said:

If the sign would read instead of "Muslims" - "Jews" - this would be considered not only discrimination but racism and cruelty and ANTISEMTISM:

Here is how Hungarian police are keeping Muslims from crossing the board

Here is how Hungarian police are keeping Jews from crossing the board

There is not that much difference between Syrian Nuslim Arabs and Israeli Jews genetically, both are semitic. Stereotypes of Arabs with big noses and anti-Arab or Muslim cartoons often resemble nazi cartoons. Arabs are as semitic as jews, but for some reason anti-semitism has become synonymous with jew hatred. But the hatred and fierce xenophobia of Arabs is in fact anti-semitism too.

Also in DNA and Genese Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs are very similar, they have the same Middle-eastern roots. The only difference is that many jews in two, three thousand years have got a lot of Slavic, Germanic, Latin and African genes and dna next to the Semitic genes and dna.

[karl]

Apr 18, 2016 21:38:48 GMT -7 Jaga said:

Karl, I did not see anything wrong with your post, so you did not need to apologize.

Pieter, Karl
referring to the division in Europe, I had a discussion with my best friend in Poland. We rarely discuss politics, I asked her, since she had four children, her son and my godson is getting married. She was concerned that her children are not religious. I refered to the fact that the church has a strange role in the politics now and it enhances divisions. She is against helping immigrants although her younger son supports it. She believes in the conspiracy theory about Smolensk's catastrophy.

Jaga

Thank you most kindly for your nice reply...

It is good to have a best friend, for friendship is a valued thing that is the trust between two people and needs be protected. Your friend in Poland, it is understandable of her concern for her children seemingly with out religious feelings, they are young and the young seem to think they will live forever. When the correct time arrives, most likely the situation with them will change.

The 2010 Smolensk crash of the Polish Tu-154 with 96 people on board was indeed a terrible crash and loss of life. The crash was thoroughly investigated resulting with conclusion that was made public. It is always good to remember such a loss but not to focus upon it too much. What has happened will not change the circumstances or bring the dead back to life.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/aug/02/poland-smolensk-air-disaster

Karl