Very disturbing pictures from history - but worth to watch

[Jaga]

They are disturbing not necessary due to the violence.. although there is some, but the context. The face of a monk who decided to comit suicide in protest in fire or Russian-Finish war which is usually not even known to bigger media, last day of Hitler, still alive; Armienian starving children with a Turkish soldiers mocking them with piece of food.

Please see if you have enought courage, but I promise you would not forget it and maybe the humanity would learn something from it:

offbeat.topix.com/slideshow/17224/slide56

37 Rare Photos From History - And The Haunting Stories That Go With Them

[pieter]

This weekend a Nationalistic Turkish march was taking place through the streets of Arnhem. From my home I heard some hysterical Turkish man shouting in a Hilter like fashion with Turkish music as illustration behind it. It irritated me. A Dutch artist wrote on Facebook 'While they are killing Kurds in Turkish Kurdistan, Turks hold a nationalist really in Arnhem, how ironical.' Kurds also sometimes hold ethnic cultural marches during Kurd and Iranian New Year, Newroz in March. Often they carry Kurd Nationalist flags too. Tensions between Turks and Kurds exist in the Netherlands and Germany.

[Jaga]

Pieter,

I will also be disturbed if I saw something like that. We need to be nation-tolerant rather than block ourselves in our own little world. Turkey officially did not even admit to Armenia's wrongdoing.
Just yesterday German parliament voted to declare Armenian deaths by Turkey as Genocide:

www.nytimes.com/2016/06/03/world/europe/armenian-genocide-germany-turkey.html?_r=0

BERLIN — The German Parliament overwhelmingly adopted a symbolic but fraught resolution on Thursday declaring the killings of Armenians by Ottoman Turks in 1915 a genocide, escalating tensions with Turkey at a diplomatically delicate juncture.

static01.nyt.com/images/2016/06/03/world/03Armenia-web3/03Armenia-web3-master768.jpg

The Turkish government angrily denounced the vote as “null and void,” and President Recep Tayyip Erdogan called his ambassador in Germany back to Ankara for consultations.

“The way to close the dark pages of your own history is not by defaming the histories of other countries with irresponsible and baseless decisions,” Turkey’s foreign minister, Mevlut Cavusoglu, wrote on Twitter. In Ankara, Prime Minister Binali Yildirim said, “There is no shameful incident in our past that would make us bow our heads.”



Germany needs Turkey’s help in following through on a deal with the European Union to manage the refugee crisis arising in large part from the Syrian civil war. At the same time, the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, has been under pressure not to be seen as caving to pressure from Ankara to compromise on Western values, particularly after a recent dust-up over freedom of speech sparked by a German comedian’s satire that outraged Mr. Erdogan.

[pieter]

Dear Jaga,

I am not anti-Turkish nor xenophobic in general, I went to the Turkish festival in Arnhem just a day before the Turkish Nationalistic and cultural march with Ottoman historical elements in it. This interview was made last Friday, because I was interested in the economy and contribution of the Turkish entrepreneurs and middle class in Arnhem and the connection between Arnhem and Turkey. I have contacts with both Turks and Kurds in Arnhem. There are tensions between the two groups, but in the same time many Turks and Kurds can get along.

This is the interview I had with two Turks, on Dutch Turkish man and one Turkish visitor of a Turkish university. We were one of the few Dutch people there.


Cheers,
Pieter

[karl]

Jaga

A very commendable argument in relation to Official admittance of Turkey in the matter of genocide of Armenians in year 1915. The Turkish republic is in a difficult situation with this issue that occurred in the time of the Ottoman Empire, added to this, there was a war in progress and Turkey was allied to The Germany of the Kaiser.

Yes, in the post war years, The hated Germany was plundered by France for what they could ship home of industrial machines and equipment. The other two powers condoned such action as justifiable with exception of the Brits. They knew over the ignorance of the other two world powers, that Germany should be punished, but not destroyed. For there was the clear and evidenced danger of communisum that could and would come through Western Europe, and Germany was the only bulwark to stop this advance.

Now, it would seen the tide has turned against Turkey to either officially admit to their part in wrong doing or face,,what?

There are some very far reaching factures that are not being mentioned. For one, Turkey is in a strategic are of emportance to both the Americans in maintaining their base rights on Turkish soil, and with the wars that the Americans enjoy to maintain in the Gulf region, these bases are indispensable.

The other situation is the location of Turkey being astride of the only entrance/exit between the Black Sea to the Sea of Marara then to the Aegean Sea. This then involves the Russians Black sea fleet with its own set of rules and requirements. Incidently: Also the Americans use this rout into the Black Sea for their purposes of their own.

Another factor not exactly mentioned, is even though Armenia has been a republics since year 1991, to this date, official relations between The Turkish Republic and The Armenian Republic have never been established. Thusly, being there is no diplomatic relations between the two republics, then there is no manner of official establishment of manners of satisfaction of any repreations or financial satisfaction to be satisfied upon common agreement.

Commensurately as relative to the occasion, there is some doubt as to the validity to any living witnesses to testify to an actual incident credited to Ottoman Turkish atrocities as to the actual players of said incident. This other then field reports as observed by individual officers of Allied forces. This then may be refuted by differences in cultural differences in observation.

It is nice to say other then that of above, but, once to delve into facts for prosecution, each point as espoused as popular opion,becomes null and defacto. For the ugly factor of habias corpus will raise its ugly head and the entire house of cards will fall as {hear say} or, shall we say: lack of corpus delicti.

Karl

[Jaga]

Karl, you really know a lot about history between Armenia and Turkey. I am not completely sure whether is there any justification for Turkey? Or not enough evidence? Could you elaborate of that? Was Turkey targeting just Armenians and if they did, why? Is it just because of the religion? Armenia became independent as you said in 1991... so they had nobody to really fight for them.

Jun 2, 2016 13:11:01 GMT -7 karl said:

Jaga

Yes, in the post war years, The hated Germany was plundered by France for what they could ship home of industrial machines and equipment. The other two powers condoned such action as justifiable with exception of the Brits. They knew over the ignorance of the other two world powers, that Germany should be punished, but not destroyed. For there was the clear and evidenced danger of communisum that could and would come through Western Europe, and Germany was the only bulwark to stop this advance.
.....

Commensurately as relative to the occasion, there is some doubt as to the validity to any living witnesses to testify to an actual incident credited to Ottoman Turkish atrocities as to the actual players of said incident. This other then field reports as observed by individual officers of Allied forces. This then may be refuted by differences in cultural differences in observation.

It is nice to say other then that of above, but, once to delve into facts for prosecution, each point as espoused as popular opion,becomes null and defacto. For the ugly factor of habias corpus will raise its ugly head and the entire house of cards will fall as {hear say} or, shall we say: lack of corpus delicti.

Karl

[karl]

Jun 2, 2016 17:52:57 GMT -7 Jaga said:

Karl, you really know a lot about history between Armenia and Turkey. I am not completely sure whether is there any justification for Turkey? Or not enough evidence? Could you elaborate of that? Was Turkey targeting just Armenians and if they did, why? Is it just because of the religion? Armenia became independent as you said in 1991... so they had nobody to really fight for them. ]

Jaga

It is an honour to expand if this would be of interest to you. Although the subject is not very tasteful.

The Armenians in the time of the Ottoman Empire were and are Christians. They though were for the most part, very well educated and successful in business and, resented by the Turks for their successes. This then prefollowed the Jews in prewar and war time Germany. The resentment become so intense to the extent of hate. Turkish are Islamics whilst Armenians are Christians, in the eyes of Islamics, it was then acceptable to remove them {Armenians} with what ever reasons to government sponsored arrest with the approval of the Turkish people.

The resentment turned to hate, was then transferred into death marches for killing squads to complete the removal of these people.

Withen the url below, describes in more professional write up of much of this history. But,, not all of it.

There is the remains of a very large mass grave site located in Deir ez Zor Syria, it is located close to the Euphrates river paralleling one of the main road ways. The site has never been excavated but very well known, for even to the present, bones are still surfacing. The number of people murdered at this grave site I understand is in the area of approximately 450.000, this of course for the reason of no exact records from that time but only estimates. How ever the exact number, the Armenian population in Turkey at that time was heavily depopulated upon time of the end of war.

The reason of this site of mass murder was at that time of 1915, this was still part of the then Ottoman empire and the Turks were in full control.

I believe there is still a memorial of the genocide there {Deir ez Sor}. The name Deir means in Arabic, monastery, but I do not believe the monastery still exist.

Our studies whist attending the University in Bonn, was in the mesoptamia area some distance down stream of the Euphrates in Iraq. This was the location of the team I was part of.

www.history.com/topics/armenian-genocide

I do hope this has been of some use to you, if additional would be of convenient, what ever I have knowledge will of course be yours.

It is understandable in light of such cruel actions taken against the Armenians at that time would be to the Turkish government, a pleasure to remove from their history.

The following is reply through diplomatic means:

Republic of Turkey
Ministry of Foreign Affairs

{please click latest press releases No: 125, 2 June 2016}

www.mfa.gov.tr/default.en.mfa

Karl