YOU'VE GONE TOO FAR: Eastern Europe makes five demands to b

[JustJohn or JJ]

YOU'VE GONE TOO FAR: Eastern Europe makes five demands to block EU superstate

THE European Union appeared more fractured than ever today after a powerful group of eastern states laid down a series of demands over migration and the economy.

By Nick Gutteridge
PUBLISHED: 00:01, Sat, Sep 17, 2016 | UPDATED: 02:23, Sat, Sep 17, 2016


France, Spain and Italy have formed their own interest group to counter the power wielded by Merkel

Members of the influential Visegrad group, which comprises of Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic and Slovakia, rejected migrant quotas and blasted the overbearing EU Commission with an incendiary ultimatum.

The group represents a faction of nations which have become increasingly concerned by authoritarian Brussels, with Poland and Hungary both locked in bitter legal battles with the EU.

Their demands come after a separate clique of Mediterranean states, including France, Spain and Italy, formed their own interest group to counter the power wielded by Angela Merkel.

The developments are a sign of the spiralling disintegration of the EU which is seeing the bloc fray into a series of powerful factions, each fighting to impose their own interest on bureaucrats in Brussels.

In their statement the Visegrad group said: "Our ambition is to reassert the vision and principles enshrined in the Treaties and win back the trust of our citizens."

The countries listed five key areas where they feel the European project has gone astray, and included concrete demands from other nations to fix the issues.

The first ultimatum was over the erosion of democracy by the increasingly authoritarian EU Commission, which is swamping member states in thousands of dictatorial laws.

The group said: "It is necessary to strengthen the role of national parliaments underlining respect for the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality."

They then moved on to the issue of equality across the union, making a pointed barb that eastern European states feel they are being sidelined by Germany and France over key decision making.

The statement blasted: "European integration is a common project and all negotiations should therefore be inclusive and open to all member states."

Next the Visegrad group addressed the issue of security, which has become a hot topic following a series of bloody terror attacks across the continent linked to the migrant crisis.

They said: "Recent terrorist attacks in Europe are proof that there is a new challenge which the EU must deal with - the growing terrorism and cross-border crime."

"The Visegrad Group countries point out that the efforts should be channelled to fully implement the already undertaken commitments aiming at strengthening security in Schengen area as well as the protection of EU's external borders."

Linked closely to security was the issue of migration, which is a key issue for a group of five countries which have been on the frontline of the escalating asylum chaos.

Their statement demanded: "Migration policy should be based on the principle of 'flexible solidarity'
"This concept should enable Member States to decide on specific forms of contribution taking into account their experience and potential. Furthermore any distribution mechanism should be voluntary."

Finally the group addressed the problems with the single market - including the disastrous Euro project, admitting that the EU's popularity had taken a battering due to years of economic stagnation.

They wrote: "It is necessary to inform more effectively the public opinion about the positive outcomes of the Internal Market meanwhile improving the enforcement of its rules to eradicate intra-EU protectionism."

[karl]

This perhaps a natural progression of maturation of the EU. It needs be tested by fire to strengthen it from withen and from without. These various obstaining states are by no means the last word, but simply the brakes to keep the train on track.

Karl

[pieter]

Karl,,

The EU needs Countervailing Powers. Institutionalized mechanisms like the EU's European Commission's departments and services (Directorate-Generals (DGs)) that the wielding of power within a polity having two or more centers (Brussels, Luxemburg and Strasbourg) can, and often does, provide counter-forces (the Visgrad countries, the UK which left the EU with Brexit) that usefully oppose each other. This political organization stands in contrast to polities such as principalities where "various princes were absolute rulers in their domain" or in modern examples of totalitarian governments.

The concept of sovereignty was and is replaced in many European countries and the EU by the concept of checks and balances. I think that that is a good thing, because I believe that principles like *equality for the law, independent legistlation, the Trias Politica principle (The separation of powers) is more important than strong Centralistic power of Federalism. Poland, the Czech Republic, Hungary and Slovakia oppose the Centralistic bureaucratic Brussels power, because they love their independence and sovereignty, but also the benefits of a EU which is based on fraternity, solidarity, Cultural diversity, economic cooperation (trade and thus an open European inner market which benefits all nations), financial and monetarian cooperation, legal cooperation and security cooperation.

Karl, the EU will never become like the United States of America or the Bundesrepublic Deutschland with the German member states (Bundesländer). Both the USA and the German Federal Republic are wonderful Federal states and great nations which are admired, trusted and even loved by people from abroad. But the European Union (EU) is not the Bundesrepublic Deutschland nor the USA. Look at my Germanophobic parents with their war time cause and affect Anti-German sentiment. They mildly accept and like the 'New Germany' and my Germanophobic father surprised me this summer that the Germans of today are Good and decent people and that he holds no grudge against them. Maybe he is not fond of Germany (and my Polish mother certainly not), but they see that the Germans of today are good people, because of Democratic Germany and because of the EU. Because the EU was good for the destroyd nations of Europe, it created prosperity and brotherhood between old bitter rivals and enemies (Germany and France, Germany and Great Britain - in the time that the UK was part of the EU-).

European economy and financial cooperation

Today the EU has become to dominant, and acts like a supra-national state with Federal institutions. The EU should focus on it's core aims and duties, the European economy, the European financial situation (financial stability), monetarian policies, pan-European infrastructure projects which could be funded by the European structural funds and member states (like for instance the highway between Berlin and Warsaw), security policies and European law (the European legal system next to the National legal systems). The European ministers of internal affairs, and the Ministers of Security and Justice should cooperate very closely together. I hope that the European secret services and intelligence agencies cooperate very closely and maybe have a secret European Intelligence network which monitors the threats of International Islamist Jihadist terror organisations and cells (Islamic State -Daesh-, Al Qaida and other organisations), far right Neo-Nazi terror organisations like the NSU ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSU_murders ) or Golden Dawn (Greece), far left extremism (violent anarchists, neo-marxist groups and radical animal rights activists, like the murderer of Pim Fortuyn, Volkert van der Graaf - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkert_van_der_Graaf ) and the dangerous international organised crime (South-American -Mexican, Columbian and Venezuelan- drugs cartels and Italian, Russian, Turkish and Arab Mafia next to the native Dutch, native German and other European organised crime organisations. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willem_Holleeder )

European security

Europol has published an annual trend report on terrorist attacks (including failed, foiled and completed attacks) and terrorist related arrests in the EU since 2006. The reports identify that perpetrators' known or suspected affiliations have been disparate in nature. Europol break these down into five categories: (1) jihadist terrorism (previously termed "religiously-inspired terrorism"); (2) ethno-nationalist and separatist terrorism; (3) left-wing and anarchist terrorism; (4) right-wing terrorism and (5) single-issue terrorism. Europol's reports do not provide a breakdown of the proportion of attacks that have been completed or the type of damage inflicted. According to these data the vast majority of terrorist attacks in the EU between 2006 and 2013 are affiliated with Ethno-national or separatist motives, followed by left-wing attacks and those that are registered as 'unspecified'. A significant number of terror attacks are motivated religiously or associated with right-wing groups. However, among those arrested on terror-related crimes most are religiously motivated and form the largest group, followed by separatist related terror suspects. Ofcourse after this wikipedia report there were a lot of Islamist Jihadist attacks in Europe. Paris was twice the target of bloody attacks, Brussels too, and Marseille, Nice, Copenhagen and German targets were also attacked.

To prevent Directorate-Generals from the EU bureaucracy in Brussels from becoming supreme, and protect the "opulent minority" (Poland, the Netherlands, Denmark and other European countries) from the majority (Germany and France and the Brussels bureaucracy of European bureaucrats - European civil servants and their institutions-), and to induce the branches to cooperate, government systems (The European commission and their Directorate-Generals) that employ a separation of powers need a way to balance each of the branches. This should be accomplished through a system of "checks and balances", the origin of which, like separation of powers itself, is specifically credited to Montesquieu. Checks and balances allow for a system-based regulation that allows one branch to limit another, such as the power of the United States Congress to alter the composition and jurisdiction of the federal courts. Both bipartite and tripartite governmental systems apply the principles of the separation of powers to allow for the branches represented by the separate powers to hold each other reciprocally responsible to the assertion of powers as apportioned by law. The following example of the separation of powers and their mutual checks and balances for the experience of the United States Constitution is presented as illustrative of the general principles applied in similar forms of government as well.

Cheers,
Pieter

Links:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equality_before_the_law

[pieter]

The European Union appeared more fractured than ever today not only because a powerful group of Central-European states laid down a series of demands over migration and the economy, but because a larger threat endangers the existence and dominance of the EU. The combination of the Brexit of the UK (which weakened the EU, both financially and politically), the resistance of the Central-European Visgrad Group countries (Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic and Slovakia), and the danger in the Western-European countries of Nationalist and Rightwing Populist political parties who share the ideas of the leaders and governments of these Visgrad countries. I am talking about the Dutch Freedom Party of Geert Wilders (which would be the largest political party in the Netherlands today if there would be elections today), the French Front National of Marine Le Pen, the German 'Alternative für Deutschland', the Flemish Vlaams Belang and NVA, the Austrian FPÖ of Heinz-Christian Strache and the Italian Northern Leage.)

The Western European Righgtwing Populists and Nationalists rejected migrant quotas and blasted the overbearing EU Commission with an incendiary ultimatum too. They love the 'nationalistic' Polish and Hungarian leaders and governments more than they like their own center-left and center-right Democratic governments. They share Eurscepticism, Eurocentrism (European nations for Native European peoples), anti-immigration (and thus anti-refugees) stances, xenophobia, Islamophobia and conservative populist ideas.

The West-European nationalists and populists understand the struggle of the Poles and Hungarians with Brussels, because it is their struggle and cause too.

The separate interest group of Mediterranean states, including France, Spain and Italy, to counter the power wielded by Angela Merkel is understandable. Germany is the largest European nation and therefor the most powerful country in a tripartite way; (1) Financial-economical, (2) Political and (3) Military.

The the spiralling disintegration of the EU into a series of powerful factions, each fighting to impose their own interest on bureaucrats in Brussels, is logical. The Western-Slav countries, the Hungarians, Romanians and Baltic states have a shared interest. I hope that the Baltic states and Romania will join the Visgrad group, and maybe later also the Southern-Slav Slovenia and Croatia, because they have a Roman-Catholic Slavic identity like Poland and Slowakia too. I also hope that Portugal, Malta, Luxembourg, Greece and Cyprus will join the interest group of Mediterranean states.

The statement the Visegrad: "Our ambition is to reassert the vision and principles enshrined in the Treaties and win back the trust of our citizens," is realistic and has some validity. Personaly I think that there should be some solidarity in Europe between the EU memberstates in the spread of migrants and refugees over Europe. But that is my humble opinion. I understand the fears, worries, resentment of the 'christian' Western-Slav, Hungarian, Romanian and Baltic states.

I don't know personally if the European project has gone astray, and if the concrete demands from other nations to fix the issues is reasonable. I am to much focussed on regional, national and international news to be very aware of everything which takes place in Europe. The Dutch national and regional news is already enough for me to follow.

I believe that the European democracy within the EU should be strenghened, and that the European Commission and the European president should be democraticaly elected, like the American president for instance.

I agree with the Visgrad group that: "It is necessary to strengthen the role of national parliaments underlining respect for the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality."

Maybe it is true that Central- and Eastern European states are being sidelined by Germany and France over key decision making. But I have no proof of that. I believe that the German adminstration has the best intentions and feels the international pressure to play a leading role in Europe. It is to the Central-European and Eastern-European Western-Slavic, Hungarian, Romanian, Baltic and Bulgarian states to unite themselves and to strenghen their own position within the European Union.

I agree with their statement: "European integration is a common project and all negotiations should therefore be inclusive and open to all member states."

It is true also that "Recent terrorist attacks in Europe are proof that there is a new challenge which the EU must deal with - the growing terrorism and cross-border crime."

"The efforts should be channelled to fully implement the already undertaken commitments aiming at strengthening security in Schengen area as well as the protection of EU's external borders."

The issue of migration, which is a key issue for all European nations, because most nations receive a portion of asylum seekers or refugees who fled from the Middle-east or instability in Ukraine or Northern-Africa.

Migration policy indeed should be based on the principle of 'flexible solidarity' and "any distribution mechanism should be voluntary."

The European single market and the Euro currency should be strenghened and more member states should be able to accept and introduce the Euro.

[Jaga]

Pieter:

+++The European Union appeared more fractured than ever today not only because a powerful group of Central-European states laid down a series of demands over migration and the economy, but because a larger threat endangers the existence and dominance of the EU.+++

agreed, very well said.

[JustJohn or JJ]

I believe we have been hacked

[Jaga]

John, I was able to ban him. Thank you. I will try to remove his post also

[pieter]

John/Jaga,

I reported the chap and deleted his post.

Cheers,
Pieter

[karl]

J.J., Pieter, Jaga

What has been out lined here is the division of EU states by location and size which in self is quite unfair but then also logical. For each has within its inner circles its own affairs and issues that are not shared by other states as those being some differences between the exampled Eastern states versus Western States. Although as opposite as above, all share the simular differences of too much central power of Brussels. Whilst at this time and date is simply an irritation, it would be very much worse if the EU was to share one state, one military. Then, we would have a dictatorship to deal with as being ruled from Brussels.

For each state is both unique in its own right, but also with its own language and customs, we do not need all to be cut from the same cloth. But then, at this same time, all states face a simular issue at this time with a threatening combat war in Ukraine that possibly could spread to Ingolf all of Europe. In this matter, it is imperative to set aside our various differences and concentrate on the common threat that is centered by Russia.

Karl

[pieter]

Jul 10, 2022 9:27:10 GMT -7 karl said:

J.J., Pieter, Jaga

What has been out lined here is the division of EU states by location and size which in self is quite unfair but then also logical. For each has within its inner circles its own affairs and issues that are not shared by other states as those being some differences between the exampled Eastern states versus Western States. Although as opposite as above, all share the simular differences of too much central power of Brussels. Whilst at this time and date is simply an irritation, it would be very much worse if the EU was to share one state, one military. Then, we would have a dictatorship to deal with as being ruled from Brussels.

For each state is both unique in its own right, but also with its own language and customs, we do not need all to be cut from the same cloth. But then, at this same time, all states face a simular issue at this time with a threatening combat war in Ukraine that possibly could spread to Ingolf all of Europe. In this matter, it is imperative to set aside our various differences and concentrate on the common threat that is centered by Russia.

Karl

Karl,

You are absolutely right, each European nation has it's own national interest, history, heritage, language and culture, and again I have to state the strong connection and affection and traditions of the Regions within nations and often regions in border lands (for instance a German-Dutch-Belgian Euregion, or a German-French Euregion, French Swiss [Geneva] and France Euregion), strong city states or the inner Dutch Deltametropool in Central Western Netherlands, the Randstad ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randstad ), in Germany of course the city states Hamburg, Bremen and Berlin.

The Southern-European Mediterranean states with a Roman-Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Corporatist and more traditional political castes with clientele and different ideas about economics, financial affiars, monetary politics, culture, history, social affiars and human relations than the more over organised, calculated, progressive, liberal and mild liberal conservative North West with it's eternal moderate and centrist policies.

In Southern Europe you have stronger heritages of Catholic corporatism, Neo-Phalangism, Neo-Fascism, Eurocommunism, and Anarcho-syndicialism. powerful Unions and still strong traditional Marxist-Leninist (communist) and Social Democratic and leftwing socialist movements and political parties in the modern form of leftwing populist movements like Syriza (Coalition of the Radical Left – Progressive Alliance (Greek: Συνασπισμός Ριζοσπαστικής Αριστεράς – Προοδευτική Συμμαχία)), the Democratic Party (Italian: Partito Democratico, PD) in Italy (more moderate than the Greek, French and Spanish left), La France Insoumise of presidential candidate Jean-Luc Mélenchon in France (he is a threat to both president Emmanuel Macron and Marine Le Pen of the National Rally (French: Rassemblement National) and the leftwing populist Unidas Podemos and the centre left Social Democratic PSOE in Spain. Spain has a Social Democratic government lead by the Spanish Socialist Workers' Party (PSOE) of Prime Minister of Spain Pedro Sánchez.

The contrast between the traditional South and traditional North is clear for decades now, that was for a long time the largest tension in the EU. The fiscal conservative North West, and liberal conservative Laisez Faire market capitalism oriented North West (Netherlands, Germany and Austria) vs the more socialist Etatist and corporatists South.

A new divsion which you, Karl rightly mentioned was the difference, tension and confrontations between Western-Europe and Central- and Eastern-Europe in the EU. The core of the resistance against the Dutch, Belgian, Luxemburgian, French, German , Austrian, Danish and Swedish approach is the differences of opinion about the Rechtsstaat, independent judiciary and the legal system between countries like Hungary and Poland on one side and the the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg, France, Germany, Denmark and Sweden on the other side.

The Central-European and Eastern-European resistance against West-European and EU (Brussels; European Commission and European Parliament) criticism and thread of cutbacks or certain sanctions is symbolised by the Visegrád Group (the Visegrád Four, the V4, or the European Quartet). Thank God Poland is stil a member of the "Weimar Triangle". The Weimar Triangle is loosely, a grouping of Poland, Germany, and France. The group is intended to promote co-operation between the three countries in crisis zones. It exists mostly in the form of summit meetings between the leaders of these three countries, and of their foreign ministers.

Due to the Ukrainian war and the world wide food crisis, threads and instability we see a remarkable temporary unity within the EU and NATO, but that might change if the war in Ukraine lasts long or when a truce is reached or Ukraine is occupied by Russia or conquered back by Ukraine. These old deep dividing lines will return and in the same time the strong Eurosceptic and anti-EU National Populist forces are growing all over Europe.

Cheers,
Pieter