Foreing accents

[pieter]

Foreign accents or differences between people have always been a subject for comedy, irony, mockery and cabaret.

In the Netherlands we for instance have the Indo-European accent and stereotype of the Indo aunt, the Moroccan Dutch
accent or slang, Turkish Dutch, Surinamese Dutch whith it's Sranang influences, Chinese Dutch and we have the
heavy slavic accents of Polish, Czech, Russian, Serb, Croat, Bosnian, Slovenian, Slovak, Ukrainian and other people.

Famous is the Czech Dutch tv interviewer Martin Šimek:

Slavic people often have difficulties with the Northern Dutch hard G and the H, they often speak G in H words and G
in H words. Which sounds very funny in Dutch.

A Dutch comedy show mocking Šimek's Czech slavic accent and his exentric behaviour


Martin Šimek



Martin Šimek (Prague, November 7, 1948) is a Dutch radio and television presenter, cartoonist and columnist of Czech descent.

Biography
Šimek fled during the Prague Spring in 1968 the then Czechoslovakia and came to the Netherlands. He studied economics and worked initially as a tennis coach. His love of tennis began at the age of nine. Rather, he wanted to be a tennis player himself, but in his own words, he had little talent for it. As a coach he has reached the top. For example, he coached Michiel Schapers in 1988 from nowhere to number 25 goes in the world.

Later he made his name as an interviewer for various radio and television programs for the RVU (Dutch public educational tv broadcaster). Following the VPRO program Color confess where he was a guest. Between 1991 and 2008 he presented each night from Saturday to Sunday between noon and one at Radio 1 program Šimek in the night. His listening figures were remarkable; the market share of this program fluctuated between 33 and 36%. In 2009 he was on television again:. for the Evangelical Christian Broadcast corporation EO program Šimek he presented the call for change.

Šimek does interviewing more than an un-Dutch way guests. This creates a controversy with critics in 1999 when he interviewed Katja Schuurman physically live. Another incident in the VARA World Turns Around program running by when he is a guest in May 2015 and speaks about the refugee question in terms of 'these little blacks', something that offended table lady Sylvana Simons. Simons is a black Dutch tv personality and politician. Under the pseudonym anone (Czech words for yes and no to another), he draws cartoons for De Groene Amsterdammer magazine (a leftwing intellectual Dutch magazine about politics, society, culture, literature, poetry, world affairs and media) and writes columns for various media. In the summer he likes to enjoy the Italian countryside.


Sylvana Simons

Comical; Comedy - Dutch people learn Moroccan Dutch


Funny, Moroccan Dutch is a mix of Berber and Dutch, Dutch with a Berber accent


Parody, typical black Dutch aunt, played by a Dutch Surinamese comedian


Comedy about multi-cultural differences between neighbours and misunderstanding due to accents and different language backgrounds

Spanish neigbour talks about the hooker subsidy, instaid of rent subsidy. This Moroccan comedian mocks clearly with foreign accents and
some minor failures or misunderstandings that occur due to that. He is very funny, very famous and liked very much by native Dutch.
He holds a mirror in the front of both Native Dutch people and Moroccans. Mocks both of them.

Indonesian taxi driver and Moroccan client

[karl]

Pieter

My self was not to reply with and of any sort in the first. This for the reason of rememberance of past with embarrassment resulting with my personal Frisian accent that spills into and destroys any resemblance to native German speaking. An accent in my mind only, destroys the accuracy of the message or conversation of the speaker to the receiving person, in as well as a carry over in the manner of written communication. For with this is a serious fault, for as how so many instances, misunderstandings due to accents, come into play that should never have been.

But, now I am ruining the fun with your presentation,,I do apologize if this should be the case.

Perhaps this mind set I carry is personally being very proud with the wish and needs be, of accuracy. For whilst the person{s} I am conversing with are zeroing in on my accent, they are not listening as close to the body of our conversation.

Speaking only for my self, I do not hold others to the same standards I hold for my self. Not that my self am so superior, far from that, I feel it is to the other person to hold them selves to their own personal standards as that is their natures right as fellow human beings.

Karl

[Jaga]

Pieter and Karl,

very interesting topic and also difficult for me.
Pieter, really good videos and explanation why we Slavs have such a hard time with Germanic languages.
Karl, sorry again to hear your story.

One can see an accent as a curse or a beauty but I personally dread being asked where I am from.... but I have many friends who after a while stop thinking about me as a foreigner and I appreciate it.

[karl]

I can understand where Jaga is coming from in common with her accent, for her reaction is very simular to my own.

Whilst working in Canada, this accent business was nothing, for accents were reasonable common in the manner of the mix of Western Canadians versus Eastern provinces such as Quebec and there abouts.

But in the States {USA}, such as the Seattle area, some people appeared to hold a great interest in accents. It would on the surface appear that being a SeaPort City such as Vancouver BC, that accents would be common enough as to go reasonably unnoticed, but so it would appear not so.

Perhaps it is the curiosity factor that plays into the minds of some that they question the source of the accent for then to place their rightful place where they are, I am not sure. What I was to notice, is for the most part, an accent was mostly questioned on the street, but not so much in a professional setting.

Karl

[Jaga]

Karl,

you made a good point. In some settings, like Idaho, accent is even more important than in Seattle... since people are not familiar with these who have accents. In professional settings it does not matter that much.

[Jaga]

Pieter, I tried to understand Martin Slimek and his difference compared to regular Dutch. He sounded for me more German... but I could hear the hard Dutch consonants and how he was struggling with them, and I would too

[pieter]

In Dutch Martin Šimek has certainly a slavic Czech accent (he escaped from Czechoslovakia in in 1968 during or after the Sovjet occupation of Czechoslovakia). His accent for us Dutch is clearly different than German. But maybe there are similarities between the German and Czech accents in Dutch?

Like other people with Slavic backgrounds he has some difficulties with the H and G, but he improved in that. Maybe that improvement sound like a German accent of Dutch for non-Native Dutch speakers?

[pieter]

Dear Karl and Jaga,

All three of us had our fair share of difficulties with accents and being different, because of our accent. I have to say that Karl and Jaga had it more difficult than me. I was different at my Zeeland peninsula as a child, because I did't had the regional provincial Zeeland accent, the Walcheren dialect of the Walcheren people, nor the Vlissingen harbor city dialect. And I was aware of my mothers slavic accent of Dutch (not so different from Martin Šimek accent), and the fact that my Polish grandmother (babcia) often stayed in our home for several months, made the feeling of being different than the 100% Duch locals and even the 100% import Dutch from other parts of the country larger. I have said it before and say it again, we were different, but that is ok. We dealt with it as children my sister and I and made the Peninsula Walcheren and the city Vlissingen our own. I lived there for 20years.

Fact is that due to my parents and my Dutch family in the other provinces South-Holland (Rotterdam -several uncles and aunts and cousins -male and female- and The Hague -a cousin of mine-), North-Holland (Amsterdam; Uncle and aunt), the Eastern, Saxon province of Drenthe (an uncle and aunt of mine), the Saxon Province of Overijssel (in the Twente part, bordering Germany), and my Dutch grandmother in Northern-Gelderland (where my grandparents moved to after my grandfathers retirement, they moved there in 1948) and in a town in the Utrecht province ( a cousin of mine and his wife) we were no locals, nor regional people. We were as we say in Dutch import people. People who come to a region or province from another region or province, who settle in a new province (region), and live, work and go to school there. We did our best to integrate and assimilate there, but we stayed import people.The fathers family of mine was and is spread over the Netherlands. We (my sister and I) lived in the far South-Western corner of the Netherlands. Karl, already spoke about his past in Esbjerg, Cuxhaven, Hamburg and abroad. He had a tougher time then me probably, because he had to switch from one country to another and there are significant differences between Denmark and Germany. I know that Germans with a North-German Frisian accent, Bavarian accent or East-German Saxon accent (Erich Honecker's accent) faced some mockery and still face some mockery in Germany by the German majority of Hochdeutsch speakers.





In the Netherlands the toughest and rudest jokes are made about Southerners with their soft-G accent of Dutch (especially Limburgers are mocking birds and outlaws for sharp mocking, ridicule, contempt (which is bad in my view, but Amsterdam and other Western Holland people can be rude (blunt) towards compatriots from other parts of the country). I have to say that I am not a saint and am not fond of the Limburg regional language and dialects either. I have some slight irritation about it. I would never live in Limburg. I am Roman-Catholic like them, but totally different than them. I am a minority Roman-Catholic who grew up on a Protestant Christian, predominantly Calvinist, Dutch Reformed Peninsula with Gereformeerde and Nederlands Hervormde (= various versions of Calvinist Dutch reformed) churches (Presbyterian in American and British/Scottish context). Being Calvinist-Catholic like me (in the cultural sense) makes you different than majority Roman-Catholics like Limburgers, Brabanders, Flemish people, many Wallons, Baviarians, Poles, Italians and Irish people. The Limburg province region and province lies in a three countries corner. So the Limburgian regional language, Limburgs, has Southern-Dutch (Limburgs, Brabant and Flemish) soft-G elements, German elements and probably some Flemish and Wallon elements. I can't understand heavy versions of it and due to the regional and provincial identity and locked (local) mentality, atmosphere and use of it you feel locked out as an outsider. To make it more complicated, The Limburg people feel different than the Holland Dutch people and Dutch people of the North in general and secondly they feel different than their fellow Southern-Dutch people, the Brabanders, who live West of Limburg. Limburgers can have some arrogance and feel themselves better than the Brabant people. In some aspects (culture, mentality, life style, dialect) the Limburg people are closer to the German neighbours in the East and the Belgian neighbours in the South. (In the Belgian case that is logical, because on the other side of the border is the Belgian province Limburg. And Belgian Limburg people speak Limburgian in staid of Flemish, or Flemish with a clearly Limburg accent). Andre Rieu, the musician John likes is a Limburger, and he speaks the Limburg dialect of the city of Maastricht. Fact is that many wellknown Dutch people with a Limburg background (actors, actresses, showbiz people, politicians and tv personalities) who moved to the West, North of Limburg (to Holland cities like Leiden -university-, Amsterdam, The Hague or Rotterdam), learned Algemeen Beschaafd Nederlands (Standard Dutch; the Northern-Dutch hard G accent language, Pieters language and accent) to be accepted. In fact they hid their Southern-accent. Going back to their parents, family and friends in their towns or cities in Limburg they use the Limburg regional language or dialect in the place they came from. The same is the case with some Brabant people. But studying in Amsterdam I recognised all the different accents of people coming from various provinces and regions. Frisians are proud and in general accepted people in the Netherlands, and their language sounds strong and stubborn in the eyes of the Holland, Utrecht, Saxon, Limburg, Brabant and Zeeland people. We learned about the many wars between the Holland people and the Frisians during the middle ages. Today still some mild competition between Frisians and Holland people exist in Friesland between the Frisians and the import Dutch (most often Holland people). Famous is the story of the medieval Frisian worrier Grutte Pier ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pier_Gerlofs_Donia )



Frisians today have a dual identity, they are loyal to the Netherlands, but in the same time have a strong regional/provincial identity as Frisians with their own language, culture, press/media, mentality and have some autonomy. They have some mild Nationalism or patriotism. But most Frisians reject separatism, extremism and militant Frisian Nationalism. They like being part of the Netherlands and in the same time have their own Frisian identity and region. Due to the fact that in the Netherlands Friesland (Frisia) has positive role models and a clear positive image as a region of skating in the winter, the Frisian lakes, Frisian agriculture, the wonderful Frisian cities and towns, Frisian soccer clubs and the Frisian Friese dairy company, the Frisian people and identity is less ridiculed and mocked than in Germany, where the Frisians form a tiny minority which can be easily mocked by the German majority of Hochdeutsch (Standard German) speakers. But like with Limburg people Frisians sometimes irritate Dutch people who don't like regionalism and the separate identity and pride of the Limburgers and Frisians. It is complex for me to talk about the Netherlands. We have the same regional differences and minor tensions that go with that like in other parts of Europe, but we don't have the fierce language, ethnic or cultural clashes like for instance in Belgium (between the Flemish and the Walloons), Basque country and Catalonia in Spain, Northern-Ireland, Silesia in Poland or the tensions in Ukraine or the former Yugoslavian republics Serbia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Macedonia and Kosovo. But mind you, I am not a Dutch Frisian, so I can't say what Frisian people like Fokke de Haan, Abe Lenstra, Dieuwke Postma, Bengt Riemersma or Feyoena Haarsma feel like if they live outside Friesland, with their Frisian names and accents?


Selfmockery of a The Hague comedian about his own The Hague peoples dialect. About that in Spain he heard a Dutch mother talking to her son in The Hague dialect behind him while he was talking with an English chap, that he should swim with his head above the water and not with his head in the water.


A fake far right party exercise from people speaking in the The Hague working class peoples dialect. Also these comedians are The Hague people themselves who know exactly how to speak the The Hague peoples dialect perfectly. They had to stop this comedy show, because it was so good that some Dutch people didn't saw the irony and sarcasm of this show and started to support this ridiculous party and it's leaders, who are comic characters.

I regret the difficulties Karl must have endured in Germany, being a person who was raised in North-Frisia in Denmark, and who had to move to the East-Frisian Cuxhaven (where he didn't understood the local Frisian accent of the German Frisian over there in the beginning), and after that moved to Hamburg with it's Hamburg city harbor dialect and Hochdeutsch and his service for various German companies and institutions. I am sorry that arrogant and mocking German compatriots must have given you a hard time. It is similar to some Dutch people with regional accents, like I explained above here. I realise that my own difficulties and probably mocking of some heavy regional dialects and accents isn't good nor applaudable. From the other side regional locals will always see or treat us Standard Dutch speakers as outsiders, import and not locals. I am used to that now and developped a thick skin. But being regarded or seen not as a local Arnhemmer (not born and raised in the city) is sometimes difficult. Therefor I have developped a social network of friends, colleages, artists, and professional contacts with people who are import too. Most contacts in Arnhem and my social life is with people who came from Amsterdam, The Hague, Rotterdam, Nijmegen, Apeldoorn, de Achterhoek region in Eastern-Gelderland -near the German border- (for some reason I can get along very well with the Saxon Achterhoek people), Flemish people, Dutch people with a German background. I only have close relationships with very few real local Arnhem people.


An Eastern Dutch comedian has a show in his own Saxon Twente dialect, and also speaks about the half German Limburg dialect, which he can't understand, except a few words he recognises. Brabant people when they are drunk sound like the Saxon Twente people in the eyes of Finkers, the comedian.

Very funny

Herman Finkers, the Twente (Saxon) comedian talks with a Dutch telephone operator, who can't understand his dialect. This is an exellent example about the misunderstanding between Dutch people due to dialect differences, and for instance a Standard Duch speaker and a dialect speaker.

Fortunately a lot of Arnhem people (media/press colleages, politicians, artists, entrepreneurs, teachers, civil servants, students of the vocational universities and etc.) came from other parts of the Netherlands like me. I hope that today Karl, you are respected, and that by age, your problem with your Frisian accent has become loss prominent. Maybe during the years your accent moved more towards Hochdeutsch, maybe you accepted your different regional identity. I want to state again that you shouldn't feel contempt or an inferiour complex due to your North-German and Danish background. Again I want to say that people with a different accent in the Netherlands faced the same problems you have back then. People with a German accent of Dutch, people with a British accent, Flemish Dutch speakers, foreign migrants who speak Berber Dutch, Turkish Dutch, Kurd Dutch, Asian Dutch, Slavic Dutch. I have an Afghan colleage who has a very limited understanding of Dutch and that gives him and us quite some challenges. He is somewhat insecure or vulnerable due to the language difficulties. Like the Moroccan comedian with his Spanish neighbour joke (hooker subsidy instaid of rent subsidy) there are quite some misunderstandings in the professional, social and medical field. Often migrant children who speak Dutch well have to go with their Moroccan-Dutch, Turkish-Dutch, Tunesian-Dutch or Algerian-Dutch parent to the hospital to translate and mediate between Dutch doctors or hospital specialists and their parents.

Turkish friends of mine told me that I have an understanding of other cultures and thus migrants many other Dutch don't have. After they got to know me they said that I have that understanding, because one of my parents is a migrant herself, a person who wasn't born in the Netherlands. They told me that I was born and raised inbetween or within two cultures, that of my father and that of my mother. It is true that I have an interest in differences between cultures, sociology (without being an expert in the field of sociology), anthropology (Karl studied that back in the days), history and the psychology and personal stories of people. I have learned a great deal from contacts and thus talking with (conversations, discussions and even debates with) people from Egypt, Iraq, Poland, Russia, Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia, Turkey, Suriname, the Dutch Antilles, Germany, Afghanistan, Palestine, Israel and Iran.

I hope Karl that your remembrance of your embarrassing experiences with German compatriots due to your personal Frisian accent is limited to moments like reading this thread. I hope that like a Dutch saying says; "Time healed your (mental) wounds." It is sad that people (including me) don't see the richness and diversity of our national language due to the regional and local accents in it. With successful integration of foreign migrants in our societies even some of their words, expressions and even funny migrant accents have enriched our national languages and given our comedians a rich source for comedy. Due to the fact that everybody and anything is a source and target of mockery, comedy and satire no group should feel targeted. Standard Dutch people are targeted due to their posh, arrogant, Western or North-Dutch hard G accent, and sometimes snobbish or snotty use of Dutch. Southerners with their clear Soft G accent and due to that clear Brabant or Limburg identity or labeled as Southern peasants or less trustworthy by the Holland people. Holland people are seen by the Southerners, the Eastern-Saxons and the Northern Frisians as to direct, to fast speaking and to blunt. And I can go on and on about the differences, mutual insults and mockery, comedy about these differences and etc. Fact is that still people from abroad with a foreign accent have the largest difficulties with both standard Dutch speakers (Holland/Haarlem accent) and the regional Dutch dialect speakers. Their slavic (Polish, Czech, Russian, Ukrainian, Slovak, Serb, Bosnian, Slovenian or Croat), Moroccan Berber or Arab, Turkish, Kurd, Afghan or Iranian accent makes them vulnerable, insecure, uncertain, unsettled or doubtful. Also Western people with an English-, German- or French speaking background can be uncertain, due to the fact that they are not fluent in Dutch or have a heavy accent. But these Westerners don't face the difficulties non-Westerners face. The non-Westerners also do not look European and therefor more often have eyes on them or are watched carefully by colleagues, neighbours or the police. There is discrimination, xenophobia and racism today in our societies in Europe. Probably the Netherlands and Denmark are more difficult for migrants and expats today than Germany which is more tolerant, despite the rightwing populist Alternative for Germany party.

Karl, as a accent in in the Netherlands can destroy the accuracy of the message or conversation of the speaker to the receiving person, in as well as a carry over in the manner of written communication. For with this is a serious fault, for as how so many instances, misunderstandings due to accents, come into play that should never have been. I heard this several times at private parties and at conversations with politicians, civil servants and people in different parts of the country. Dutch people who can't understand the heavy dialect or the regional language of other Dutch people coming from other parts of the country, or even within the same region, due to the different local dialects of different cities, towns and villages. For instance in Dutch Frisia, Friesland, you have the general Dutch Frisian lanuage of Friesland (Influenced by Dutch and Low Saxon, because you can't understand Dutch Frisian), but in the same time you have different city dialects of the Frisian cities. Leeuwarden (Frisian name Ljouwert), the capital of Friesland for instance has a different city dialect than Drachten, and Drachten has a different city dialect than Sneek (Frisian name Snits), and the other Frisian cities and towns like Heerenveen (It Hearrenfean), Harlingen (Harns), Joure (De Jouwer), Franeker (Frjentsjer), Wolvega (Wolvegea), Dokkum (Dokkum), Lemmer (De Lemmer) each have their own local Frisian city dialect. It is like the different Frisian languages you experienced in Denmark and Northern-Germany.


Here you see the different Dutch provinces and thus regional differences. You see that the historical dominant and most important part of the Netherlands Holland contains only a small part of the Netherlands, Zuid-Holland and Noord-Holland. Now I look at it I realise that the Saxon part of the Netherlands is quite huge and larger than I realized myself. It is a large part of the Netherlands, but less densly populated than the West, the Randstad.

Karl, you did not ruin the fun of my presentation, but you showed me the fact that foreign accents and different accents, dialects and regional languages cause problems and pain for people, adults and children alike. Our nations are quite the same in the regional diversity and the fact that our nations linguistically are segregated in Northern, Western, Eastern, Southern and Central regional languages and dialect groups and that both our countries have strong city dialects, like the Hamburg city peoples dialect, Berlin dialect and Cologne dialect for instance.

I agree with you that accuracy in language is important, and maybe it is important for regional language speakers and migrant people to be become very good in the national languages like Standard Dutch and Hochdeutsch. Why? Because the financial-economical, political, state, education, health care and society elites and both the private and state sectors are dominated by Standard Dutch and Hochdeutsch speakers. That's why many Limburg, Frisian, Zeeland and Saxon people learned Standard Dutch very well on their primary school, highschool and on the vocational universities and universities or in their professions. I wonder if you have this dual identity in Germany too. Germans who for instance speak Frisian at home and Hochdeutsch at work, or Bavarian at home and Hochdeutsch at work? I learned from Swiss German fellow students and a Swiss German art teacher at the art academy in Arnhem that they speak Swiss German with family and friends, but Hochdeutsch in professional circumstances. For instance in civil service, banks, international companies with German managers and other German colleages. That was quite a surprise to me. Fortunately there are institutions, organs, organisations who take care of the protection of the regional languages in Europe. Why is that important? In the Netherlands regional dialects and dialects decrease due to the inlfuence of Standard Dutch education and the use of Standard Dutch on national and regional television, muncipalities, press and media, at companies and in the social sphere. Standard Dutch is also dominant in movies, sitcoms, theatre, and as communication tool between young people (pupils, students and young working people). Even children with regional language or dialect speaking parents and grandparents prefer to speak Standard Dutch. Due to that fact some regional languuages and dialects are threatened with decay. You see the power, influence and dominance of the National government, the Ministry of Education, Culture and Science; and the influence of National political parties and organisation who promote Standard Dutch and keep empathising the importance of Dutch language education.

Again I am sorry for your linguistic problems in Germany Karl, I wish you were taken more seriously or had less problems with colleages and other fellow Germans. Maybe I can easy your pain, by saying Dutch, Belgian and French people faced the same problem, due to their regional language accent in their language. I heard about the mocking of Limburg Flemish people by the dominant Flanders people (from the cities Antwerp, Mechelen, Gent, Brugge, Knokke-Heist and Oostende, Leuven) from other parts of Flanders. In Flanders the Antwerp people are like the Amsterdammers in the Netherlands. Slightly arrogant, dominant and self-assured and vain. Belgian Limburg people therefor are locked between the Dutch border, Wallonia and Flanders.

Like you Karl I feel it is to the other person to hold him or her self to this or her own personal standard as that is their natural right as fellow human beings. We should be compassionate towards our fellow country men, and realise that history has shaped them. Therefor I should accept Limburg, Brabant, Flemish, Frisian and Saxon people. And I have to coop with and accept my own Calvinist-Catholic identity and maybe should put more effort in examening and understanding real Roman-Catholicism, a faith with a rich history, lithurgy, spirituality and people. Fellow Roman-Catholics should accept me and other people like me who were raised in a protestant majority environment with a secular catholic culture. You could invite us and make us feel welcome in your Roman-Catholicism or alienate us further. In contrast with me some minority catholics build a very strong Roman-Catholic minority community, parish and faith based culture in their Calvinist majority region.

Dear Jaga,
I understand that this topic is very interesting and also difficult for you. You too are a minority in a Mormon majority region in a mixed family of Roman-Catholics (you) and your Lutheran husband.
Slavs have such a hard time with Germanic languages, because there are very few similarities between the Slav and Germanic language groups. Polish has some German and Dutch loanwords, and maybe Modern Polish will have English loanwords like e-mail, online, computer, digital, surfing, blog, website, downloading, uploading, server, bit, gigabite, terrabite, software, hardware, social media and etc.
KI am glad that you are empathic with Karl's story too. I am sorry that I reacted so late on this thread.

I think the three of us (Karl, you and me) can see an accent as a curse or a beauty! I understand you and see my Polish Dutch mother who also personally dreaded being asked where she was from.... (Are you French, Wallon, Italian, Spanish, Portugese and she was even asked if she was Israeli...)

Like you many friends of my parents after a while stopped thinking about my mother as a foreigner and she appreciated it too. (I am talking about my mothers experiences in the seventies, eighties and early nineties) Due to the influx of non-Western guestworkers and refugees my mother became less alien
or foreign in the eyes of many. But friends of mine recognise her foreign accent. (I have become blind to that Polish slav accent of her. She speaks Dutch in my eyes, and she has read so many Dutch books -literature-, newspapers and magazines all these years that her Dutch had improved a lot)

Karl it is good that you can understand Jaga's situation due to your similar experiences.

Karl, in the Netherlands I also see the curiosity factor in the Dutch people questioning foreigners or people from a different region of their own for the source of the accent of people they encounter. Dutch also like to place people in linguistic, cultural and ethnic corners, to place people with a different accent into 'their rightful place' where they are. Also in the Netherlands an accent was and is mostly questioned on the street, but not so much in a professional setting. In a professional setting people look more at skills, experience, the tools of a person and if a person does his or her job well. But language and linguistic differences play a role there too. because communication problems sometimes cause some misunderstanding and failures. For instance I use my exellent Afghan colleage for filming jobs (he is good with a professional video camera), and for some editing jobs. But there has to be someone with him if subtitles, titles or language is used in the tv interviews or programs. I respect him but release some stress for and off him by releasing him from Dutch language tasks like titles and subtitles. And in such we have an exellent cooperation.

Cheers,
Pieter

[pieter]

This stupid Dutch grocery store owner talks in a very primitive fake Dutch Turkish migrant slang to this guestworker, who speaks back with a Turkish accent, but with an exellent Dutch vocabulary. It shows the habit of Dutch people to take over a conversation of migrant or foreigners with a heavy accent. This Turkish fellow is an example of a perfect integrated Turkish-Dutch person. He has a Turkish accent, but speaks Dutch perfectly with clear Dutch words and sentences. Maybe a little bit old fasionate and perfect, but clearly. The funny thing is that the Duch chap speaks very primitively!

At the end the Turkish fellow says: "I consider the Netherlands to be one of the most civilized countries of Western-Europe, but one thing keeps getting my attention, and that is that Dutch people increasingly use their language inaccurately, with pleasure, dear gentlemen, cheers!"

[pieter]

Dear Jaga, Karl, Jeanne, Kaima, Eric, Ludvik, Gardenmona, John, Nicetoe (or Nicotshek) and other Forum members and visitors,

As a standard Dutch (called general civilized Dutch; Algemeen Beschaafd Nederlands) speaker, reader and writer I have some difficulties with the locals, but in the same time see some charm, richness and cultural value in the regional languages and dialects of my own country and language. Languages that or officially recognised in the Netherlands are Dutch, Frisian, English and Papiamento (the language of our Dutch Antilles Islands in the Caribbean. Next to that Limburgish and Dutch Low Saxon are recognised as regional languages.

In Poland like in the Netherlands and Germany you will have Standard Polish or HochPolnisch, the general civilized Polish language, the national language of Polish next to Polish dialects or regional languages as Greater Polish, spoken in the west; Lesser Polish, spoken in the south and southeast; Masovian, spoken throughout the central and eastern parts of the country and Silesian, spoken in the southwest (also considered a separate language, see comment below). Kashubian or Cassubian (Kashubian: kaszëbsczi jãzëk, pòmòrsczi jãzëk, kaszëbskò-słowińskô mòwa; Polish: język kaszubski, język pomorski, język kaszubsko-słowiński) a language variety of the Lechitic group, of the Slavic languages, is also spoken in North-Western Poland.

The distinctive dialect of the Gorals (Góralski) occurs in the mountainous area bordering the Czech Republic and Slovakia. The Gorals ("Highlanders") take great pride in their culture and the dialect. It exhibits some cultural influences from the Vlach shepherds who migrated from Wallachia (southern Romania) in the 14th–17th centuries. Some urban Poles find this very distinct dialect difficult to understand.

The Poznanski dialect, spoken in Poznań and to some extent in the whole region of the former Prussian annexation (excluding Upper Silesia), with characteristic high tone melody and notable influence of the German language. I remember that my Polish mother, born in Warsaw, who was forced by the war to move to Poznań with her parents, was not fond of Poznań due to the German atmosphere and the German influence in the Poznanski dialect. My mother was born in Warsaw in 1934 and moved with her parents to Poznań at the end of the war after her city was systematically destroyed by the Germans. They went to Poznań in 1945. My mother prefered Warsaw, because it was and is more Polish in atmosphere, and moved back to that city of her birth and childhood as an adult woman druing the fifties. I remember Poznań from my babcia (grandmother) who lived their with mu dziadek (grandfather). And I loved the city or you can say I was fond of that city during the seventies and eighties. Have a good memory of our holidays there during the seventies and eighties.

In the northern and western (formerly German) regions where Poles from the territories annexed by the Soviet Union resettled after World War II, the older generation speaks a dialect of Polish characteristic of the Kresy that includes a longer pronunciation of vowels. The territory of Kresy was composed of voivodeships of Lwów, Nowogródek, Polesie, Stanisławów, Tarnopol, Wilno, Wołyń, and the Białystok. Today, these territories are divided between Western Ukraine, Western Belarus, and south-eastern Lithuania, with such major cities as Lviv ( Lwów ), Vilnius ( Wilno ), and Grodno no longer in Poland.

Poles living in Lithuania (particularly in the Vilnius region), in Belarus (particularly the northwest), and in the northeast of Poland continue to speak the Eastern Borderlands dialect, which sounds "slushed" (in Polish described as zaciąganie z ruska, "speaking with a Russian drawl") and is easily distinguishable.
Some city dwellers, especially the less affluent population, had their own distinctive dialects - for example, the Warsaw dialect, still spoken by some of the population of Praga on the eastern bank of the Vistula. (Praga remained the only part of Warsaw where the population survived World War II relatively intact.) However, these city dialects are now mostly extinct due to assimilation with standard Polish. (That is a huge difference with for instance Germany, the Netherlands and Belgium, where different languages, regional languages, city, town and regional and local dialects exist. But also in the Netherlands the influence and dominance of Standard Dutch is repulsing regional languages and dialects. The Standard Dutch education system and the use of Standard Duch on television, Radio, Press & Media -newspapers and magazines- theatre and Dutch movies also plays a role. Despite the fact that I am a Standard Dutch speaker myself, I regret it when linguistic variety disappears or shrinks. ) People whose families left Poland just after World War II, retain a number of minor features of Polish vocabulary as spoken in the first half of the 20th century that now sound archaic, however, to contemporary visitors from Poland.

Cheers,
Pieter

Source: Wikipedia

[pieter]

Polish language

Polish language, Polish Język Polski, West Slavic language belonging to the Lekhitic subgroup and closely related to Czech, Slovak, and the Sorbian languages of eastern Germany; it is spoken by the majority of the present population of Poland.

The modern literary language, written in the Roman (Latin) alphabet, dates from the 16th century and was originally based on the dialects of the area around Poznań, in western Poland. The first written Polish consists of a list of names in the Papal Bull issued in 1136 by Pope Innocent II to the archbishop of Gniezno; the oldest recorded sentence is a gloss translating a quotation in a document from 1270. Extant manuscripts containing any appreciable amount of connected Polish text date back no earlier than the 14th century.

Polish contains a great number of words borrowed from Latin, Czech, German, Belarusian, and Ukrainian and also some words from Italian, French, and English. Along with the other West Slavic languages, it has a fixed stress accent. In contrast to the others, however, the language has nasalized vowels (spelled ę and ą), indirectly continuing the nasalized vowels of early Slavic. Among the major dialects are Great Polish and Pomeranian, Silesian, Little Polish, and Mazovian. Kashubian (Cassubian), often classified as a Polish dialect, is, historically, a separate language.

West Slavic

Polish and other Lekhitic languages

To the West Slavic branch belong Polish and other Lekhitic languages (Kashubian and its archaic variant Slovincian), Upper and Lower Sorbian (also called Lusatian or Wendish), Czech, and Slovak. In the early 21st century more than 40 million people spoke Polish not only in Poland and other parts of eastern Europe (notably in what are now Lithuania, the Czech Republic, and Belarus) but in France, the United States, and Canada as well.


Slavic languages’ family tree. Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.

The main Polish dialects are Great Polish (spoken in the northwest), Little Polish (spoken in the southeast), Silesian, and Mazovian. The last dialect shares some features with Kashubian. The remaining speakers of Kashubian live west of Gdańsk near the Baltic Sea. Slovincian—now extinct—belonged to the Northern group of Kashubian dialects, which is distinguished from a Southern group. Kashubian dialects (including Slovincian) are considered to be the remnants of a Pomeranian subgroup within the Lekhitic group. Lekhitic also included Polabian, which was spoken up to the 17th–18th century by the Slavic population of the Elbe (Labe) River region. (At that time a dictionary and some phrases in the language were written down.)

Sorbian
The Polabian language bordered the Sorbian dialects, which are still spoken by inhabitants of Lusatia in eastern Germany. There are two literary languages: Upper Sorbian, used around Bautzen (Budyšin), and Lower Sorbian, used around Cottbus.

Czech-Slovak
In the early 21st century Czech was spoken by some 12 million people in the Czech Republic; its dialects are divided into Bohemian, Moravian, and Silesian groups. The literary language is based on the 16th-century form of the Central Bohemian dialect of Prague. The Slovak literary language was formed on the basis of a Central Slovak dialect in the middle of the 19th century. Western Slovak dialects are similar to Moravian and differ from the Central and the Eastern dialects, which have features in common with Polish and Ukrainian. In the early 21st century some six million people spoke Slovak; most lived in Slovakia.

[pieter]

The dialect of Polish characteristic of the Kresy has two main dialect groups according to Wikipedia

The regional differences correspond mainly to old ethnic or tribal divisions from around a thousand years ago. As a result of expulsions and other displacements of Poles during and after World War II, as well as language policy in the People's Republic of Poland, the Polish language became far more homogeneous in the second half of the 20th century.

Polish linguistic tradition includes three more dialect groups, for a total of seven:

- Kashubian, spoken in an elongated band of territory in the Pomorze region west of Gdańsk on the Baltic Sea; now usually considered a separate language
- Northern Kresy, spoken along the border between Lithuania and Belarus
- Southern Kresy, spoken in isolated pockets in Ukraine

This traditional division is still cited, especially in Polish sources. Current linguistic consensus, however, tends to consider Kashubian to be a separate language, or at least as a Slavic variety that cannot be grouped at the same level as the four major modern Polish dialects. Prior to World War II, Kashubian speakers were surrounded on both sides by German speakers, with only a narrow border to the south with Polish speakers. Kashubian contains a number of features not found in Polish dialects, e.g. nine distinct oral vowels (vs. the five of standard Polish) and (in the northern dialects) phonemic word stress, an archaic feature preserved from Common Slavic times and not found anywhere else among the West Slavic languages.

The two Kresy dialects are spoken in the Kresy, the former eastern Polish territory annexed by the Soviet Union in 1945 and currently forming part of Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine. Both dialect groups have been in decline since World War II as a result of Soviet expulsions of millions of Poles from the Kresy. Poles living in Lithuania (particularly in the Vilnius region), in Belarus (particularly the northwest), and in the northeast of Poland continue to speak a Northern Kresy dialect, which sounds "slushed" (in Polish described as zaciąganie z ruska, 'speaking with a Russian drawl'), and is easily distinguishable.

The majority of Poles expelled from the Kresy were settled in newly annexed regions in northern and western Poland, adopting so-called new mixed dialects. However, among the older generation is still found a type of Kresy dialect which resembles Ukrainian or Rusyn in some ways, especially in the "longer" pronunciation of vowels.

Silesian

Many linguistic sources about the Slavic languages describe Silesian as a dialect of Polish. However, many Silesians consider themselves a separate ethnicity and have been advocating for the recognition of a Silesian language. According to the last official census in Poland in 2011, above 0.5 million people declared Silesian as their native language. Many sociolinguistic sources (e.g. by Tomasz Kamusella, Agnieszka Pianka, Alfred F. Majewicz, Tomasz Wicherkiewicz) assume that whether something is considered to be a language or a dialect ultimately is a matter of extralinguistic criteria, such as the sentiment of its users or political motivations, and thus changes over time. Also, language organizations like SIL International and various linguistic resources like Ethnologue, and others, like Poland's Ministry of Administration and Digitization, recognize the Silesian language. In 2007, Silesian was assigned the language code szl within the ISO 639-3 standard.


Hershl Hartman, native Yiddish speaker and educational director at the Sholem Community in California, recalls his first encounter with the Polish Yiddish dialect.

Ofcourse you had a Polish version of Yiddish, the language of the Ashkenazi Central- and Eastern-Jewish people. The Polish jews had their Yiddish with their ow Polish Yiddish words and expressions related to life in Poland. Minority languages and dialects or regional language are always influenced by the majority languages, regional languages or dialects that surround them and often also influence by the languages of other minorities. In the Yiddish case German, Ukrainian, Russian and possibly Lithuanian, Czech (Bohemian) and Slovak?


Daivd Slucki, Professor of Jewish Studies at Austraila's Monash University, discusses the tension between the Polish Yiddish accent he heard at home growing up and the Litvak accent he encounters in academic settings.

[pieter]

In the Netherland the West Germanic language Duch gets some influence from English and German, we for instance speak about Germanisms in the Dutch language.
I love to use them but sometimes receive criticism of Dutch compatriots such as "Why do you use that Germanism or German expression, can't you find a Dutch word for that?"

Germanism in the Dutch language, German words used in Dutch sentences:

- Überhaupt (anyway, generally, absolutely, ever, altogether, after all)
- Fingerspitzengefühl (= is a German term, literally meaning "finger tips feeling" and meaning intuitive flair or instinct, which has been appropriated by the English and Dutch languages as a loanword. It describes a great situational awareness, and the ability to respond most appropriately and tactfully. It can also be applied to diplomats, bearers of bad news, or to describe a superior ability to respond to an escalated situation. The term is sometimes used to describe the instinctive play of certain football players. In social context, fingerspitzengefuhl suggests a combination of "tact, diplomacy and a certain amount of sensitivity to the feelings of others". It is a quality that can enable a person to "negotiate tricky social situations".)

Some Dutch words clearly have a German background:

- beduidend (German bedeutend) for "signifficant;
- begeestering (Begeisterung) voor "enthousiasm";
- meerdere (mehrere) for "several or various";
- eenduidig (eindeutig) for "unambiguous or unequivocal".

Other words with a clear German infuence:
- autobaan - Autobahn for highway
- bemerking - Bemerkung for a remark
- beroepsmatig - berufsmäßig for professional
- de zestiger jaren - die sechziger Jahre for the sixties
- eerstens - erstens for First
- geëigend - geeignet for appropriate, decent, suited
- hij leve hoog! - er lebe hoch for he lives high (long)!
- inschatten - einschätzen for judging
- instelling - Einsteillung for attitude, mentality, outlook
- keelkop - Kehlkopf for larynx
- maatgevend - maßgeblich for decisive ; determinant ; normative
- middels - mittels for by means or through ; by way of
- omkleden - umkleiden for to change ; to put other clothes on ; to cover ; to sheathe
- onderbouwen - unterbauen for to found, to build, substantiate, to base ; to ground ; to lay foundatios of; to corroborate
- steekwoord - Stichwort for keyword; the entry; the headword; reference word heading; descriptor; subject heading; subject word
- steenrijk - steinreich for wealthy; very rich; immensely rich; opulent; rolling in money
- technieker - Techniker for technician; technical expert; technicist; technical engineer; engineer; laboratory technician
- zich vertypen - vertippen for to make a typing error; to make a typo; to make an error type; to make a typographical error

Do you have in Poland something like Slavicism, Rusicism or Protoslavic influences in Polish. Are there Eastern-Slav and Southern-Slav (Yugoslavian) influences in Poland or influences of other Western slav languages like Czech (Bohemian), Slovak, Lechitic, Silesian, Pomeranian language (Polish: Grupa pomorska języków lechickich, German: Pomoranische Sprache), Kashubian, Sorbian ((Lusatian), Lower Sorbian and Upper Sorbian?

Lusatia


Bilingual station of Forst (Lausitz)

Lusatia (German: Lausitz, Upper Sorbian: Łužica, Lower Sorbian: Łužyca, Polish: Łużyce, Czech: Lužice) is a region in Central Europe. The region is the home of the ethnic group of Lusatian Sorbs, a small Western Slavic nation. It stretches from the Bóbr and Kwisa rivers in the east to the Pulsnitz and Black Elster in the west, today located within the German states of Saxony and Brandenburg as well as in the Lower Silesian and Lubusz voivodeships of western Poland.

Historically, Lusatia belonged to several different countries. Being part of the Lands of the Bohemian Crown (the so-called Czech Lands) for three hundred years, alongside them it passed to the Habsburg Monarchy and from it to the Electorate of Saxony. The greater part passed to the Kingdom of Prussia in 1815 and the whole region merged into Germany in 1871. After the conquest of Eastern Germany (the later DDR) by the Soviet Red Army and the partition in 1945, the eastern part of Lusatia along the Lusatian Neisse river was given to Poland where the boundary is called the Oder–Neisse line.

In the Polish part today Polish is spoken, and in the German part German, Upper- and Lower Sorbian. The biggest Lusatian town is Cottbus (Lower Sorbian: Chóśebuz).

Jaga, have you ever heard of Lusatian Sorbs in Polish Silesia? Have you ever heard their language. They are a very tiny, small minority in both Germany and Poland, but still hold their traditions, customs, folklore (dress, markets, festivals) and language.


This is procession of Easter Riders in Upper Lusatia, April 2011. They belong to the autochthonous Slavic minority in Germany, the Lusatian Sorbs), and the ride is one of their most important folk traditions. You can hear them singing in the Upper Lusatian Sorbian language. The filmed event took place in Radwor (Radibor) in Saxony, Germany.

Mass in the Sorbian language

Can you understand any of it Bonobo?

[karl]

Pieter

First, I must say, thank you for the wonderful manner of your research and most of all, your manner of presenting such sensative instances of our lives such as yours, Jaga and my self. For all you have mentioned, has been salve upon the many years of open wounds that have been a plague upon my self.

It was very good of you to have described as we had in past, your difficulties with your Zeeland accent to then your family move to Walcheren and Harbour city Vlissingen. Those harbour people live a hard life and they usually drink hard. With this, I think some times they forget about how others may feel that are not part of the Harbour life, they can be mean and make life difficult for others that are import folks.

For as above, I think though, your high intelligence and coming from a very progressive and close family, you had learnt at an early age the skills of intergration with developing a social net work of friends and associates to over come these hindrances that are a plague to our lives.

A very high plus for you though, and I do hope with trust, I am not being impulsive to say, but you do come from a very international family. Your mother is Polish, as with your relatives in Poland, your sister is in South Africa as with the family of your Brother-in-Law. What this means is: You have the ability of cross cultural ability as an asset to your self and close friends, a manner few people possess.

I was not aware of the amount of German words used in Dutch, but then, with such close borders, this should not be a surprise even though it is.

You had made mention of a location of Achterhoek, this is Frisian and means,"Rear Corner" I then located it and it is literally in the Eastern part of Gelderland, is this just some thing!

We had earlier discussed some of our early experiences as young men, I think I had mentioned of working in summer to earn my school clothing and school supplies. One summer job search brought me to a farmers door in a village west of Cuxhaven as Großefehn {Frisian meaning= Grootfehn} it is of a few villages close to Aurich Oldendorf {East Frisia or German Niedersachsen}. The farmer was very good to me and we become very good friends, the problem was also did I like his daughter and I belive he had some secret plans for me as his future son in law. Being of the age of 17 years, my life as just beginning and the distance between his farm and my home in Cuxhaven just was too much.

That summer though, was a teaching summer for me to expand my Frisian language with his East Frisian. There is a difference in some of the words/spelling and prononciation that differs, but to listen with understanding works.

The years working and living in Germany for the most part, have been good, just the instances that my accent becomes a hinderance has become fewer and fewer. It just becomes noticed by new employees fresh out of the University and such in service schools such as the academy it is noticed.

Life does though, carry some suprises as unexpected. For recently whilst reviewing out of curiosity, an old {copy} written in old English, and was surprised to understand it after a bit of time. Then realized that Frisian and Old English are very similar, I should have known this, but over the years, had forgotten.

{Just too old too soon, and too smart too late}

Karl

[pieter]

Dear Karl,

Thank you for the appreciation of my research and my manner of presenting the sensative instances of your life, Jaga's experiences and that of myself. I can feel empathy, pity, sorry and bad and sad about your experiences and mine. But I hope that we have learnt something of it, gained strength from it and overcome some of the problems and challenges we faced. I don't want to count out the other Forum members out (both the ones who are alive and some of the dear forum members that passed away or left and disappeared). Each of us has her or his own story and many have struggled with life like we did. With challenges in their families, neighbourhoods, cities or towns, schools and vocational universities and universities, in war (John in Vietnam) and peace time, under totalitarian regimes (Jaga and Ludwik experiences with Stalinism), abroad (Eric in the SovjetUnion and the Russian Federation, Boston and Florida), Kaima with his life in Alaska and work abroad (all these years in the service of the State department; in various US embassies; and Kai's brave journey's and the challenges he faced in them). If I look at my parents who witnessed the destructive Second World War (seeing the destruction of their beloved Rotterdam and Warsaw. My father as a 12 year old boy saw on Tuesday May 14th 1940- around 13:30 [1:30 p.m.] his old Duch harbour city turn from a charming old city in the early summer sun turn into a hell of fire, destruction and darkness. In a few days the city turned from a sunny, charming old harbour city with a beautiful city center into a black, anthracite and grey mass with the yellow, orange, blue and phosphorous white of fire, and the howling of the firestorm that raided through the city. His life an the life of his family -my grandmother, grandfather and aunt Miek, my fathers older sister- turned upside down in a few hours. Their neighbourhood and their house was saved but the family firm building was gone, houses, company buildings, homes of friends, schools, hospitals, churches, the muncipality building, harbours and a lot of property of people was lost. Rotterdam and the Netherlands was still a class society back then, with various classes. For the unskilled workers, skilled workers and low middle class the bombardment was a disaster. The poor had no means to survive. My grandfathers family firm had two departments, the Rotterdam office and the Amsterdam office (lead by an Amsterdam member of the Rotterdam based family), so with the help of the Amsterdam branch the Rotterdam branch recovered from the bombardment disaster. But for my father the five long years of German Nazi occupation meant that he spend five years of his early life (from his 12th year to his 17th) amongst the desperation of a destructed city, cycling to school through a desert of flat land where once the city center had been, with only some rubble left and some remnants of what once had been houses, buildings and churches. Next to the experiences of being occupied by foreign invaders, the humiliation of seeing collaborating compatriots who were profiteers and low lifes. Fellow Dutch people who parasitized on the misery of others, who felt power, abused power, and were the henchmen of 'Das Reichskommissariat Niederlande'. Dutch nazi's, opportunists, civil servants and indifferent people who collaborated with notorious people like the war criminals like Arthur Seyss-Inquart, Reichskommissar of the Netherlands; Hanns Albin Rauter, the highest SS and Police Leader in the occupied Netherlands; Generalkommissar Fritz Schmidt; Hans Fischböck Generalkommissar für Finanz und Wirtschaft (finance and economics); Wilhelm Harster, the Befehlshaber der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD (commander of the criminal police and the SD); Willy Paul Franz Lages (October 5, 1901 – April 2, 1971) the chief of the Sicherheitsdienst in Amsterdam during the Second World War (From March 1941 he led the so-called Zentralstelle für jüdische Auswanderung (Central Bureau for the Jewish Emigration). As such he was responsible for the deportation of Dutch Jews to the concentration camps in Germany and occupied Poland.); and Ferdinand Hugo aus der Fünten, head of the Central Office for Jewish Emigration in Amsterdam during the Second World War. (aus der Fünten was responsible for the deportations of Jews from the Netherlands to the German concentration camps.)


Durchgangslager Westerbork 1942: (from left to right) Albert Konrad Gemmeker (de), Hassel, Aus der Fünten and Scheltnes von Lippmann, Rosenthal & Co. ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lippmann,_Rosenthal_%26_Co. )

My father told me that he considered the five year long occupation, the random razzia's and executions, and the combined pressure of German, Austrian and Dutch nazi's, the persecution of Dutch and German jews (who had escaped before the war to the Netherlands), and the fact that there was little freedom as worse than the bombardment itself. He hid with his father, sister and mother in the basement of the family company building, which was a sort of bunker underground. When they came out after the bombardment they witnessed the burning city which had turned black after the sunny and rather peaceful morning at the 9th day of the war between the Netherlands and Nazi Germany. They walked to their part of Kralingen which had not been bombed (the working class neighbourhood of Kralingen had been completely destroyed, so their neighbourhood had been hit hard). They were only lucky that their street and their part of the Kralingen neighbourhood had survived. My fathers German jewish neighbours, the Leven family (old people), were exported to a Rotterdam school where jews were brought to after they were rounded up. After that they were transported to Durchgangslager Westerbork in the Saxon, North-Eastern province of Drenthe. After Westerbork they were transported to Theresienstadt concentration camp and after that to Auschwitz concentration camp where they were gassed immediately after arrival. My aunt Miek and her son Kees examined the story of their jewish neighbours and found out how they reached their tragic via archives. A letter of the Leven's to my Dutch grandmother (their last letter) spoke about their good neighbour relations, and that they were sent to labour camps and hoped to see my parents back at the end of the war. My father is quite emotional about this story. He must have had good contacts with this older couple. Mister Levens had been a German First War veteran. They thought that that fact would have saved his life. It didn't! My father also recalled having a nasty Dutch nazi teacher, who was his Dutch language teacher and stood in class with a black Dutch Landwacht (nazi para military militia) uniform. One experience of going to the Sicherheitsdienst headquarters due to disciplinary measures by the Nazi teacher, my father described as the most dangerous and scary experience during the war. My mothers war experiences (bombardments of Warsaw in september 1939 -when she was 4.5 years old-), living in an area of Warsaw with a Gestapo prison (Mokotow Prison), a Waffen-SS barracks and a Wehrmacht officer school nearby was quite a challenge, also because my Polish grandfather was weary of the Intelligenzaktion ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligenzaktion ), being a Polish teachers economics at a girls lyceum and schoolinspector of a Warsaw school district. He was in the wrong place, in the wrong time in the wrong moment. For years he lived in constant stress and ready to escape, always having his suitcase standing near the door to escape via the roof. The janitor of their apartment building was connected to the Polish Underground (Armia Krajowa -Home Army) which had infiltrated the Gestapo in Warsaw. Some times my grandfather was informed when the Gestapo or SD would raid their street or their apartment block, he then would escape via a special route over the roof, via attics, small passages, and some broad roof gutters. When I heard the stories it sounded like a art house movie. During the war there were constant łapanka's (roundups) at Warsaw streets in which Warsaw citizens were caught and transported to detention centers or concentration camps. One day young and inexperienced AK resistance fighters attacked some Waffen-SS officers on the street below my mothers apartment in Mokotow. Their action went terribly wrong, due to the fact that the Waffen-SS officers were better trained and more experienced. The young Polish men wanted to disarm the SS-officers to take their arms to the resistance, but they failed. One of the boys was killed on the street (kicked to death by the hardened, tough SS men) and the other boy ran upstairs in the apartment block of my grandparents, mother and aunt. He blew himself up with a handgrenade on the first or second level of the building. My mother was kept at home for days by my grandmother. Only when the mess was cleaned up she was allowed to go outside again. My mother told me that the Blond, blue eyed SS-soldiers and officers were handsome when they marched by and that as human beings they sometimes had empathy for young Polish children and gave them oranges. My mother was strictly forbidden by my grandmother to take anything of the Germans, she told her children that the Germans put poison in these organges and the other food or sweets they wanted to give to the children. This ofcourse wasn't true, but fact was back then that there was pressure from the Polish resistance, Polish families, Polish church communities and Polish authorities in London (who had contact with the Polish Underground state inside Poland via informers and radio telegraphic messages) to have Zero contact with the German and Austrian nazi occupiers. Civillian Nazi authorities, German Orpo (Ornungspolizei/Grüne Polizei), Wehrmacht, Waffen-SS, Gestapo, SD, NSDAP people, SA men, Luftwaffe people and others. Only in cases of work, and necessery professional contact, contacts were allowed if they were limited to administrative, standard, financial or economical contacts in the sense of work, social security, health care and basic cooperation. Political, social and cultural contacts were strictly prohibited, and often if violated punished by capital punishment. I remember the story of a Polish actress who worked for the Nazi's who was attacked by Polish resistance members. Her husband or lover who stood in front of her when he opened the door of their home was killed in the liquidation attempt. I don't remember if the she survived the war. The Warsaw uprising was very difficult and dangerous for the family in Mokotow in Warsaw, because they were in the German part of the city in an area where there was fierce fighting between German Waffen-SS adn Wehrmacht on one side and the Polish Underground resistance army (AK) on the other side. My Polish grandmother was used as human shield by the German Waffen-SS, and bullets of Polish AK snipers flew in her direction. At the end of the Warsaw Uprising she and her husband (my grandfather) were separated as husband and wife by the SS. My grandfather escaped executing when he stood in a row of young men and suddenly switched to a row of older men. The row of younger men was executed just moments after he switched sides. My grandmother was transported in a Jewish transport train style train with Polish women from Warsaw to Mauthausen concentration camp. There they were treated very badly by the Austrian Nazi SS camp guards over there, but slightly less bad than the Russian (Sovjet Red Army), Gypsy, Political prisoner, and Jewish inmates. They were nearly starved to death, had to sleep outside and ate soup of grass, and had to work as slave labourers for Austrian farmers. What the Austrian and German Nazi's didn't realize was that their propaganda didn't poisoned all people and that not all Austrians were Nazi's. Some Austrian farmers were faithfull Roman-Catholics and not Nazi at all. And they witnessed that the Polish women were fellow Roman-Catholics, and were shocked when they heard the stories about how German, Austrian, Ukrainian, Russian and other vicious SS forces treated the civillian population of Warsaw. My grandmother, who came from Southern-Poland which was occupied by the Austrians had learned German and French in a strict Roman-Catholic boarding school for girls from well to do families. My grandmother had visited Vienna as a young woman in the early 20th century. Now she was back in Austria and her knowledge of German served her well. The Polish women thus found honest, human, empathic Austrian farmers and austrian Roman-Catholic priests. There was even a secret mass for these Polish women done by a Austrian priest who pitied them. Austrians started to feed the Polish women secretly, and treated them fairly well. Their situation improved, but the ignorant SS camp guards and Kapo's didn't noticed that. My babcia witnessed the brutal treatment of fellow Polish women, and the worse treatment of Russians, Jews, Gypsies, political prisoners and other categories. The worst thing she witnessed in the notorious Mauthausen concentrationcamp was that one day, dogs of the SS guards killed a Russian prisoner, after the guards released several dogs on him. She escaped from Austria by travelling illegaly by train from Austria to Poznań in the Generalgouvernement, where her sister who lived in Poznań helped her to resettle there. My grandmother was reunited at the end of the war with her husband and her two daughters, who also survived the difficult finanal stages of the war in Warsaw. My mother and aunt were under the protection of Polish nuns in a children shelter outside Warsaw, and my grandfather with danger for his own life had roamed through Poland from familymember (far relative) and connection to familymember (connection) until he finally reached Poznań. Mind you that he didn't had a car, nor a bike, he mainly walked, and had to take care for Germans, Austrians, Ukrainian and Russian Nazi SS forces, maybe also criminal local Polish thugs and etc. He must have hid himself several times in woods/forests or abandonned huts or other places? It was a miracle that they survived the war. Several times the lives of my grandmother, my grandfather and that of my mother had been in danger. Outside Warsaw my mother became very ill and was kept in isolation in a room by the nuns for months, which made her very lonely and had some psychological impact on her. She even couldn't see her sister who was in the same children summer camp (which turned into a children shelter or orphanage due to the war). My mother was somewhere inbetween life and death. She had Appendicitis. She had to be operated and finanaly she was operated in the orphanage by a local doctor with the help of a internist via a phone line which was connected to Warsaw. That specialist for internal diseases from a Warsaw hospital was locked in in Warsaw due to the Warsaw uprising which was taking place back then. He could'nt reach the place my mother was in outside Warsaw. His own hospital was destroyed due to the Uprising. Now he helped people via phone guiding. The surgery was extremely risky, because it wasn't done by a specialist, but by a layman. The operation was done by a general practitioner (family doctor) and not a specialist. If he didn't had the phone connection with the internist or would have made a mistake, my mother (who was a very weak 9 year old girl) would have died. But miracles happen and my mother survived and could be united with her older sister who was nearby. Later they had to travel through Poland from Warsaw to Poznań, like my grandfather did in an adventerous journey from house to house, from relative to relative, from acquaintance to acquaintance, until they reached their mother and aunt in Poznań.


Polish children were very vulnerable during the Warsaw uprising due to the thugs of the SS-Sturmbrigade "Dirlewanger", Russians of Kaminski's Russian SS Rona Brigade and Ukrainians who fought on the nazi side. I even heard stories of Dutch Neo-Nazi's and German Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS leute that Oskar Dirlewanger was even feared and loathed, hated and despised by common Wehrmacht soldiers and Waffen-SS men of other SS units. They would even should and kill Oskar Dirlewangers men, because they were looters, murderers, rapists, child and women molesters, and killed both Polish and German wounded men, women and children in Warsaw hospitals during the Warsaw uprising. Oskar Dirlewangers was a subhuman vicious animal and Dirlewangers men were beasts, heavy criminals, the worst kind of scum. Even fellow Germans stated that.




Commanding officers of the S.S. Sturmbrigade R.O.N.A. during the destruction of the Polish capital in the suppression of the Warsaw Uprising. Centre, Major Ivan Denisovich.

On August 5th, 1944, there were about 300 patients in the hospital, among them over a dozen of Germans, taken prisoners by the guerrilla. In the afternoon the guerrilla was forced out of the object. In the evening the soldiers of one of Ostlegionen group, a part of Dirlewanger's Storm Group heir way into the premises. They were Azeri, former Soviet prisoners, who were part of 111th Regiment's 1st battalion "Azerbaijan" and 2nd battalion "Bergman"; they became infamous for exceptional cruelty during the operations in Wola in the first days of August, 1944. The citizens of Warsaw called them Ukrainians, Mongols, or Kalmyks.



The slaughter of the wounded, the sick, the staff and their families began, as well as that of the citizens of Wola, among whom there were many children, looking for shelter in the hospital. The enemy was shooting with machine guns into the basements through the windows, throwing grenades, and killing the people taken out from the building with the shot in the back of the head. Around 1200 people died in the hospital, some of them burned alive in the building that were set on fire after the slaughter. Thanks to the intervention of the wounded German soldiers who were receiving treatment in the hospital, about 50 people of the medical staff were moved to St. Stanislaw Hospital. Several doctors were killed, as well as around 30 lay and monastic nurses and the nurses from the uprising service, including ten 16- and 17-year-old Polish girl scouts.


The old town of Warsaw during the uprising. My mother survived this hell due to a miracle or a lot of luck and determination. My grandmother was a very strong lady and my grandfather was a humble, wise and educated man. They had good connections and my grandmother had
collected food and food stock of Kompot, tins and other fdood that could be hold for long

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Dirlewanger
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.S._Sturmbrigade_R.O.N.A.

I have mentioned this war history before, but wanted to mention it to show my parents background and the fact that many of our parents and grandparents generation experienced a lot during the late 19th century and early 20th century. The witnessed political extremism, independence of Poland, revolution (my Poliush grandfather witnessed the Bolsjewist October Revolution in 1917 in Saint Petersburg. He was saved by Russian civilians (probably monarchists, or White army supporters), who removed his officer signs from his uniform. He was a Polish officer in the Russian Czarist Imperial Army, he spoke Russian, and he had travelled a lot in Russian during the First World War and it's chaotic aftermath. My grandfather had experienced the Eastern Front from the First World War fighting against Austrian habsburg and the German armies. Often on the other side other Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Hungarians, Germans and Austrians fought side by side against the Russian forces. For instance Józef Piłsudski's Polish Legions fought under Austrian army control against Russia. In 1917, with Russia faring badly in the war, he withdrew his support from the Central Powers and was arrested by the Germans.


My grandfather as Polish officer in the Czaristic Russian Imperial Army somewhere at the Eastern Front during the First World War.

Jaga's parents, uncles, aunts, grandparents, greatgrandparents and other family in Krakow and Silesia will have suffered too. I remember the story of the Polish family member which was forced to serve in the Wehrmacht. In another case German connections of a Polish familymember with Polish and German family roots helped members of the Poznan branch to survive the war, without collaboration, but with the benefits of having German family members with better access to food, diary products, bread, vegetables and meat. So from one side there were connections with a German branch, in another branch of the family there was or were mixed Catholic-Jewish marriages, and yet again another family branch with German links too was communist. (An aunt liberated from Auschwitz concentration camp became a PZPR party member, she lived in the same street as General Jaruzelski in Warsaw).

Karl, you suffered from the absence of your parents, while you were aware in Denmark that they were alive and that they were somewhere in Germany. You had to deal with your Danish auntie and cousins, who did their best to be some surrogate mother and sisters. They gave you shelter, a home and probably saved you from bombardments and danger in Germany. Maybe that was part of the reason your parents wanted you to stay in Denmark. They knew that Germany was at war, and the heavy allied bombardments of British, American, Polish, Canadian and other bombers was dangerous for German civilians in larger cities, industrial area's. I really believe that your parents wanted you to stay in the relatively safe Denmark, because it was safer there than in Hamburg. Parents sometimes make decisions children don't understand and never will find out why they did as they did.

I am sorry for the many years of open wounds that have been a plague upon you. The fact that the same thing took place with people in Belgium and the Netherlands due to regional differences, different regional languages and dialects and due to mixed marriages of for instance German and Dutch citizens, or Dutch and French citizens or Dutch people and other European nationalities.

You understand the difficulties I experienced in Zeeland with my Standard Dutch (not regional dialect or Zeelandish regional language) when my family moved to Walcheren and Harbour city Vlissingen due to your own experiences with Esjberg, Cuxhaven and Hamburg. You are right that these harbour people live and lived a hard life and that they usually drink a lot. They forget about how others may feel that are not part of the Harbour life, and simply don't care about that. They are local harbour workers and don't like otusiders, weather they are import Dutch like me or foreign migrant workers that entered their space. They were hard core secular socialists, and very different from the regional Calvinist christian farmers and Calvinist christian fishermen and the civil servants and administrators of the Provincial capital Middelburg nearby. They only had and have their own interest in mind and Vlissingen is their bastion. With their Union, the Labour party (still leftwing Social Democratic -democratic socialist- back then) they struggled with the 'capitalist' employers, and formed a contrast to the local Vlissingen elite of city adminstratots, middle class, doctors, dentists, teachers, lawjers and attorney's. As a banker my father belonged to the local upper middle class. But in the same time he didn't really belonged to them, because the local upper middle class like the local working class were people who had family backgrounds that went centuries back and thus had local and regional networks in the Walcheren Peninsula and in the Zeeland Province. My father is import outsider didn't had these old family and personal social and professional networks the born and raised people had there. It had both advantages and disadvantages. His Rotterdam extravert directness (typical large city mentality) sometimes clashed with the more introvert, difficult social etiquette, manners and thus way of doing things of the Zeelandish people over there. These people are closed, stubborn, somewhat distrusting, distant, introverted and quite blunt people. The combination of the commercial navy harbour, fisher harbour, large industry in Vlissingen East, common workers (construction workers), muncipality workers, sailors, sea pilots, and farmers in the environment made it a special place. Not Rotterdam, Antwerp or Hamburg, but a small port or harbour with large dockyards and dockyard workers. The Dock yards occupied half of the city center. It was the largest employer of Vlissingen. A workingclass city it was. A socialist city. Later rightwing populism and local political parties gained ground in Vlissingen.

These Dockyard workers, harbour workers, sailors and workers could be mean and made life difficult for me and others sometimes due to my Standard Dutch language and the difference other import folks also showed. Frisians, Drenthe (Low Saxon accent speaking people) and Brabant people were different too.

To some extend I have learnt at an early age the skills of integration with developing a social net work of friends and associates to over come these hindrances that are a plague to our lives. But I never became a local and never felt like that I was born and raised there.

I come from a very international family indeed with Dutch, Polish, South-African, American, Danish, Belgian and French branches. I have to say that some of these branches are unknown to me. I have never met them and wasn't raised with stories about them. They exist and that is all I know. My parents are people who are rather focussed on their own life and not really family crazy. We had contact with family members, but not very much. The core family was always the 4 of us, for 20 years and partly after that when my sister and I started studying in Amsterdam. Although my parents were people who came from Rotterdam and Warsaw and had Poznan and Amsterdam experience and lived and worked for a few years in Apeldoorn where I was born, since 197o their life was focussed on Vlissingen, Middelburg and the Walcheren Peninsula where they settled themselves early 1970. In only lived three months in Apeldoorn, the city of my birth. I wonder how life would have been if my parents had stayed there. But realise that such a question is not that important. My parents moved to Vlissingen. In Apeldoorn you have more middle class and high class people and it is located in the Middle of the Veluwe Forest area. It would have been a total different life than in Vlissingen. So we got the sea, the flat lands, the wind, the farm lands, and Zeeland in staid of Gelderland and Apeldoorn. Apeldoorn is only my place of birth.

The Achterhoek is a typical rural border region with a strong Low Saxon farmers culture and a few towns with some industries and a regional economy. In Dutch Achterhoek also means "Rear Corner" and being located in the Eastern part of Gelderland, bordering Germany the name has logic as you mentioned. In the past names always had a meaning or heritage.

A beautiful and moving story about your work at the farm in Großefehn, the daughter and the plans of the farmer with you. But life had different plans with you and you too had large city and Danish experiences. You were ment for some further studies, military service, some experience at sea and work abroad. But the experience at the farm must have been good and the income was ofcourse welcome to finance your school clothing and school supplies.

it was good that during the summer you could learn some East Frisian vocabulary and sentences to maintian yourself in that area of Germany. Probably the difference in some of the words/spelling and prononciation was like my lessons German in higschool. For me both Dutch and German were complicated Germanic languages, also due to the differences. The Dutch spelling and grammer is quite difficult, because it has less rules and vowels than German and French. German and French is more logical. English was also very different than Dutch and the English spelling was also a challenge for me. The construction of sentences in English is often reverse the Dutch way.

I am glad that the years working and living in Germany for the most part, have been good to and for you. I am glad to hear that the instances that your accent becomes a hinderance has become fewer and fewer. That is really good news, because you will have less stress and feel less insulted or less excluded. New employees can be blunt and direct due to their freshness, lack of experience and youthful arrogance and boasting. You are older and hopefully can look through that.

Frisian and Old English indeed are very similar, Frisian is the closest West-Germanic language to English, yet it sounds very different. Often a language and culture that is very close to you can be very complicated in the same time. I have slightly a little bit that experience with the German language and German culture.
German is very close to Dutch as a related and linked West-Germanic language, but in the same time very different. I am fluent in Dutch but not fluent in German. I like the other varieties of Dutch in the Flemish and Afrikaans languages.

Cheers,
Pieter