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Post by Jaga on Apr 2, 2017 15:20:18 GMT -7
Pieter,
I realuze that a majority of people in this forum know a lot about the languages. But many Americans at least here in Idaho are not even aware of the basic division of languages in Europe into Slavic, germanic and romanesque.
I do believe that slowly but surely people are more accepting of other accents. It took me a while to become aware of Texan accent or even Idaho hillybilly accent. Now, when I work with people who have these accent I became more aware of it...... I guess, after a while we actually look at each other as humans rather than people with accents.
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Post by pieter on Apr 2, 2017 16:42:26 GMT -7
I hope so Jaga. If I even see the intolerance of some Dutch compatriots with other Duch compatriots because they are from another region of city I believe that we have a long road to go in Europe. The regional and local identities are so strong over here. Many people have a national, regional and local identity. The local identity is their identitification with their village, town or city. And often within that local identity people can have a very strong borough or neighbourhood identity. Like for instance in New York you have people from Queens, Brooklyn, Harlem, Upper West Side, Upper East Side, the Bronx, Lower Manhattan, Upper Manhattan, Midtown Manhattan, Chinatown, Little Italy, Greenwich Village, Hell's Kitchen, the Meatpacking District, Murray Hill and Marble Hill. You have New Yorkers who are predominantly Brooklyners, Qeens fellows, Harlem folks, Midtowners.
The same exists in the Netherlands. You have strong Southern and Northern identities of authentic Arnhem people in my city. North is above the Rhine river and South is below the Rhine river. Some Northern folks will never visit the South, which they consider to be a dreadful place, a hell hole. In the same time a historical rivalry exists between the two main Gelderland cities Arnhem and Nijmegen. The same rivalry exists between the South-Holland city Rotterdam and the North-Holland city Amsterdam. Some Rotterdam people will never visit Amsterdam, because they detest that city. People from Holland and Utrecht mock Limburg people and the regional and local oriented Limburg people dislike the Northern part of the Netherlands. Brabanders, the poeple from the Southern provincie North-Brabant are clearly different than other Duch with their Soft-G language, easy going lifestyle and the importance of Carnaval over there (in the North it is celebrated less due to the fact that Carnaval has Roman-Catholic roots). Flemish people are mocked by the Dutch due to the fact that they are different and the Flemish people mock the Dutch.
Frisians are still seen as stubborn, different, introverted Northern people, the Eastern Saxons are different due to their Low Saxon regional languages and dialects in which they often swallow the N in words or have a dominant N sound in words.
This is an Eastern farmer with a typical Easterns Low Saxon accent. You can see that he swallows the N in words
He says that all people all over the Netherlands have some sort accents, and therefor Low Saxon should be recognised in his view. He is proud of his Low Saxon accent.
Low Saxon comedian
Before we accept each other and step over our irritations and being annoyed about the different and difficult understandable local, regional languages and dialects of the other we will be many years further. For migrants and expats it will stay different to be accepted in a group of Dutch people with a very heavy Polish, Czech, English, German, Turkish, Moroccan, Afghan, Iranian or Indonesian accent. The Standard Dutch Language purists (perfectionists) or intolerant local dialect speakers or regional language users will be tough on you if you are linguistically different. People are still to stubborn and used to their own language, traditions and the sound of the language their own family, neighbours (with the same local roots as them), same city locals and other born and raised regional folks speak. It takes years as an import Dutch or a migrant or expat to get fully accepted and part of the local team.
Ofcourse there are always people who are kameleons, easy adapters, social champions or inconspicuous people who fit in very fast and easily, or just are invisible and therefor fit in.
But most people are not like that and they take their background, style, culture, mentality, accent and personal preferences with them. I have to say that the mix of authentic local people and newcomers (Import) makes a place attractive and dynamic.
Cheers, Pieter
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Post by pieter on Apr 4, 2017 13:52:11 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Apr 4, 2017 13:53:39 GMT -7
This is something in the middle between Dutch and German
It is also close to some Dutch and German Frisian dialects
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Post by karl on Apr 4, 2017 16:31:42 GMT -7
Pieter Gollies, you have made my day, yes, this is what we refer to in Frisian as: Plattdüütsch. It is spoken from South Jütland into Northern Germany www.plattmaster.de/plattoew.htmI do have as equals in Denmark, that Frisian is becoming less and less as a spoken language. More or less used primarly by the older people and not so much by the younger folks. This brand of Plattdüütsch is very close to Frisian and understandable on both sides of the table. Spelling is often the curse in this paradise in the manner of language. Thank you once again Karl
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Post by pieter on Apr 4, 2017 17:18:51 GMT -7
You are welcome Karl.
In the Netherlands there are some significant differences between the Dutch Frisian language and the Low Saxon of their Groningen neighbours. Frisians and Groningen Low Saxons understand eachother via Standard Dutch. Standard Duch is the communication tool of Dutch people who speak various regional languages or heavy regional and local dialects. In that way Standard Dutch (based on the old Holland -North-Holland- Haarlem Dutch) is a unifyer and an important tool for all Dutch people to understand eachother. I have to say that for me it is easier to understand Flemish Southern neighbours than Dutch people who speak some heavy Zeelandish, Local Hollandish, Brabant, Limburg, Low Saxon or Frisian dialect. There are really very heavy Dutch dialects, like you have probably German dialects or regional languages in German you wouldn't understand either, like some Franconian, or heavy Southern-German dialects of Bavaria, Saarland, Baden-Wurtemberg, Austria and Switzerland. I really had a hard time understanding some dialect speaking Swiss German students in my school when they spoke Schweitzerdeutsch with eachother, or a few Limburg students if they spoke in a heavy German Southern-Limburg Kerkrade dialect. Some Frisian village, town or city dialects are hard for me to understand, but I can understand some of the standard Duch Friesian from the Frisian province Friesland. I like to watch the Frisian broadcast corporation every now and then.
This is such a heavy Southern-Limburg dialect which is more Plattdüütsch and German than Dutch. I can't understand it. Only a few words, but not sentences! But it is a Dutch dialect, because it is spoken in the Southern Netherlands. Over the border, the Germans speak the same dialect.
Cheers, Pieter
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Post by karl on Apr 4, 2017 19:48:41 GMT -7
This last video I do not understand either...
Karl
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Post by pieter on Apr 5, 2017 16:00:34 GMT -7
The Polish language became far more homogeneous in the second half of the 20th century, in part due to the mass migration of several million Polish citizens from the eastern to the western part of the country after the Soviet annexation of the Kresy in 1939, and the acquisition of former German territory after World War II. This tendency toward a homogeneity also stems from the vertically integrated nature of the authoritarian Polish People's Republic. The inhabitants of different regions of Poland still speak "standard" Polish somewhat differently, although the differences between regional dialects appear slight. First-language speakers of Polish have no trouble understanding each other, and non-native speakers may have difficulty distinguishing regional variations. The following languages have the status of national minority's language; - Armenian - Belarusian - Czech - German - Hebrew - Lithuanian - Russian - Slovak - Ukrainian - Yiddish And Languages that have the status of ethnic minority's language are: - Karaim - Kashubian - Rusyn, called Lemko in Poland - in Polish: "Łemkowski" - Romani languages: official recognition is granted to the languages of two groups: Polska Roma and Bergitka Roma.[3] - Tatar, called Tartar by the Act Languages without officially recognised status: - Wymysorys - is an endangered language with very few speakers, native to Wilamowice, but contrary to Karaim language having a similar situation, it was practically unknown of in the time of preparation of the forementioned Act. - Silesian - status severely disputed, question whether a dialect of Polish or separate language considered a political issue. Ethnologue distinguishes two Silesian languages, Silesian and Upper Silesian. Languages of new diasporas and immigrant communities These languages are not recognised as minority languages, as the Act of 2005 defines minority as "a group of Polish citizens (...) striving to preserve its language, culture or tradition, (...) whose ancestors have been living on the present territory of the Republic of Poland for at least 100 years": Greek - language of the big Greek diaspora in Poland of 1950's. Vietnamese - the biggest immigrant community in Poland, since 1960's, having their own newspapers, schools, churches etc. History of Slavic languagesDifferentiationThe Proto-Slavic language existed until around AD 500. By the 7th century, it had broken apart into large dialectal zones. There are no reliable hypotheses about the nature of the subsequent breakups of West and South Slavic. East Slavic is generally thought to converge to one Old Russian or Old East Slavonic language, which existed until at least the 12th century. Linguistic differentiation was accelerated by the dispersion of the Slavic peoples over a large territory, which in Central Europe exceeded the current extent of Slavic-speaking majorities. Written documents of the 9th, 10th, and 11th centuries already display some local linguistic features. Division of the Slavic languagesThe tripartite division of the Slavic languages does not take into account the spoken dialects of each language. Of these, certain so-called transitional dialects and hybrid dialects often bridge the gaps between different languages, showing similarities that do not stand out when comparing Slavic literary (i.e. standard) languages. For example, Slovak (West Slavic) and Ukrainian (East Slavic) are bridged by the Rusyn of Eastern Slovakia and western Ukraine. Similarly, Polish shares transitional features with both western Ukrainian and Belarusian dialects. The Croatian Kajkavian dialect is more similar to Slovene than to the standard Croatian language. Although the Slavic languages diverged from a common proto-language later than any other group of the Indo-European language family, enough differences exist between the various Slavic dialects and languages to make communication between speakers of different Slavic languages difficult. Bilingual communes in PolandPolish/Kashubian street name sign in JastarniaThe bilingual status of gminas (communes) in Poland is regulated by the Act of 6 January 2005 on National and Ethnic Minorities and on the Regional Languages, which permits certain gminas with significant linguistic minorities to introduce a second, auxiliary language to be used in official contexts alongside Polish. So far 44 gminas have done this.
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Post by pieter on Apr 5, 2017 16:03:11 GMT -7
Dear friends,
Language is both something very personal and thus individual and subjective and in the same time very communal, collective and to a certain degree objective in the sense of Jurisdiction, law, regulations, rules, guidelines, customs, certain traditions which are described by language.
I find the history of linguistics, the heritage and roots of languages, language philosophy and Hermeneutics fascinating. The history of language goes back far. I wonder if the first speaking, writing and reading people had a common language, or if the division between languages was there since the beginning of time. Language can be a unifyer, but it can also be a cultural, religious, political and philosophical force for division, segregation, tension and conflict (war).
Europe is a continent of language and cultural borders, between various language groups and within these language groups between languages of the same group (Russian vs Ukrainian, Spanish vs French -in the sense of the dominant latin/romanesque world language, Standard Dutch vs Flemish in Belgium, Hochdeutsch vs Austrian/Bavarian/Schweitzerdeutsch), Polish vs Silsesian, Low Saxon vs Frisian).
Culture, tradition, customs, folklore, saga's, reiglious habits, Patriotism, Nationalism, and even Socialism and communism are related to language, and the way language is used by different kind of people, classes, generations and nationalities.
Jaga, Kaima, Polish members,
How closely are Polish, Czech and Slovak related. Do they have a shared West-Slavic history? What effect do the regional languages and dialects have on these languages? The language of the Goral people, the Silsesians, the Kashubians, the Sorbs (Lusetians), the Tartars, the Jewish minorities with their Yiddish, ladino and Hebrew languages.
What foreign languages doe most Poles speak? Or what foreign language should Poles be able to speak and they do not?
Cheers, Pieter
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Post by pieter on Apr 5, 2017 16:05:07 GMT -7
The Tower of BabelThe Babylonian language confusion caused by human megalomania created the linguistically divided world according to the bible. The Tower of Babel (Syriac: ܡܓܕܠܐ ܕܒܒܠ, Maḡdlā d-Bāḇēl; Hebrew: מִגְדַּל בָּבֶל, Migdal Bāḇēl) is a Near Eastern etiological myth that is recorded in the Jewish Tanakh's first book (Genesis); it is meant to explain the origin of different languages. According to the story, a united humanity of the generations following the Great Flood, speaking a single language and migrating eastward, came to the land of Shinar (Hebrew: שנער). There they agreed to build a city and a tower " tall enough to reach heaven"; seeing this, God confounded their speech so that they could no longer understand each other and scattered them around the world. The Tower of Babel by Pieter Bruegel the Elder (1563)StoryThe story of the city of Babel is recorded in Genesis 11:1–9. Everyone on earth spoke the same language. As people migrated east, they settled in the land of Shinar. People there sought to make bricks and build a city and a tower with its top in the sky, to make a name for themselves, so that they not be scattered over the world. God came down to look at the city and tower, and remarked that as one people with one language, nothing that they sought would be out of their reach. God went down and confounded their speech, so that they could not understand each other, and scattered them over the face of the earth, and they stopped building the city. Thus the city was called Babel. As it appears in the King James version of the Bible: - 1.Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. As people moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there. - 2.They said to each other, “ Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. - 3. And they said, “ Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.” - 4. But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. - 5. And the Lord said, “ Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them." - 6. " Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.” - 7. So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city. 8 Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth. — Genesis 11:4–9CompositionThemesThe story of the Tower of Babel explains the confusion of tongues: variation in human language. The story's theme of competition between God and humans appears elsewhere in Genesis, in the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. The 1st-century Jewish interpretation found in Flavius Josephus explains the construction of the tower as a hubristic act of defiance against God ordered by the arrogant tyrant Nimrod. There have, however, been some contemporary challenges to this classical interpretation, with emphasis placed on the explicit motive of cultural and linguistic homogeneity mentioned in the narrative (v. 1, 4, 6). This reading of the text sees God's actions not as a punishment for pride, but as an etiology of cultural differences, presenting Babel as the cradle of civilization. Source: Wikipedia
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Post by pieter on Apr 5, 2017 16:15:28 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Apr 5, 2017 16:19:23 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Apr 5, 2017 16:27:58 GMT -7
What does an optimal communicational system have in common with a computational system? What are the core syntactic principles of language? Institute Professor & Professor of Linguistics at Massachusetts Institute of Technology Noam Chomsky on the core of human cognitive nature, which in its properties is similar to a snowflake.
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Post by Jaga on Apr 6, 2017 21:04:14 GMT -7
Pieter, Karl,
Chomsky is a read expert of the languages. Sorry that I was not active for the last two day but I had a strained leg... and could not function normally.... it is getting better now.
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Post by karl on Apr 7, 2017 7:01:19 GMT -7
Pieter, Karl, Chomsky is a read expert of the languages. Sorry that I was not active for the last two day but I had a strained leg... and could not function normally.... it is getting better now. Jaga I do hope it heals well. Some times these strains can lead to more serious issues that require time to heal. Karl
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