nancy
European
Posts: 2,144
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Post by nancy on Dec 19, 2005 12:27:27 GMT -7
I included stupidity but I called it primitivism, which results from the lack of education. I suppose they are the same things. Stupidity and lack of education are two very different things.
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Post by Jaga on Dec 19, 2005 12:30:03 GMT -7
Pawian,
thanks for an indepth analysis. You and others are probably right that these negative stereotypes about Poland are spread around Germany, Austria but not really behind the ocean. Americans are so consumed by their own country that they do not know too much about foreigners in the first place, if they have any stereotypes of Poland now - it would be the country of Walesa, pope and Solidarity.
I think this is better this way.
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nancy
European
Posts: 2,144
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Post by nancy on Dec 19, 2005 12:31:54 GMT -7
OK, OK, I am going to ease of on them anti-Polish guns and talk about positive stereotypes now. I suppose they might be like that: - Poles are freedom-lovers and fighters and patriots. - Poles are brave. I have some ideas but do not know if they are worth mentioning. I need some help. Why are there so many more negative stereotypes than positive ones? Poles are religious. Poles are loyal. What are your other ideas, Pawian?
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Post by Jaga on Dec 19, 2005 12:38:01 GMT -7
Nancy,
the features of being religious and loyal are not necessary positive. "Loyal" - I would question this. I really do not think Poles are so loyal, they question authority and it is better this way Maybe Japanese you can call loyal but not necessarily Poles
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nancy
European
Posts: 2,144
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Post by nancy on Dec 19, 2005 12:46:11 GMT -7
the features of being religious and loyal are not necessary positive. "Loyal" - I would question this. I really do not think Poles are so loyal, they question authority and it is better this way I agree that being religious is not necesarily positive. Regarding being loyal: I am thinking on a family level rather than a regional level. "Blood is thicker than water." Stereotypes about Poles were more commonly seen and felt in the USA when the cultures were not as mixed with other European cultures as they are now. These days there are stereotypes about other cultures that are in the minority.
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Post by leslie on Dec 19, 2005 12:54:21 GMT -7
Pawi Adding to your positives, I have found that Poles are the most welcoming people I have encountered (the people of North-East England are almost up to the standard but not quite); I find that the Polish women I have encountered have been intelligent, friendly, approachable, and slimmer than English woman of comparable ages - I can personally comment on three particular Polish friends! (this physical attribute seems to be general from my observation last June when a lot of ladies were walking about Krakow - the only non-slim ones I saw were obviously tourists particularly from one country. From my professional point of view, training, I find that Polish people in or about to enter training show a very high degree of interest, enthusiasm and a rapid ability to learn. As I found earlier, Poles have an excellent sense of humour and are not serious-faced individuals (apart from one large group of Directors and Managers from one large organisation who had obviously been TOLD to attend my training seminar - but even they came round under my sparkling personality!). There can be no doubt about the bravery (sometimes a little foolhardy, but what bravery is not!) in the 1944 Warszawa Rising. Some people may say that the government Poles are a little grasping as a result of the recent EU summit meeting! But that is an Englishman talking! Leslie
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
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Post by Pawian on Dec 19, 2005 14:17:02 GMT -7
What are your other ideas, Pawian? Some new or old-dated stereotypes can be: - Polish women are pretty and they dress well. It was Napoleon Bonaparte who exclaimed in amazement: "How many beautiful women in Warsaw!" - Polish men are gentle with women. They open doors for women, bring flowers to dates, do not try to go to bed on the second date etc. - Poles are good, dutiful, honest workers. The term "Polnische Wirtschaft" has been getting slowly forgotten in Germany. Poles who work in Europe are appreciated for their cheap prices, but primarily for being hard-working professionals. - I mentioned bigotry as a negative stereotype. But some people value Polish devotion to the Pope, church, religion, God. For them most Poles are religious and that`s good. - Poles still keep traditions. The way we celebrate such religious festivals as Christmas etc prove that old traditions of the forefathers are still alive. That is valuable too. - Hospitality, already mentioned by Leslie, used to be or still is one characteristic of Poles. It`s not like in Germany where you shouldn`t expect more than a tea coming round to somebody. In Poland you will get tea, cakes, lunch or dinner too, and you will be offered being put up for a few days. - The British think that most Poles are pilots and that it is their favourite occupation ha ha ha. - In the east, Russia, Belarus or Ukraine, Poles` image is associated with nobility, gentry, pride. Polish "pan" (master) is still remembered there as the one who used to enslave Eastern peasants and workers.
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
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Post by Pawian on Dec 19, 2005 14:28:11 GMT -7
I included stupidity but I called it primitivism, which results from the lack of education. I suppose they are the same things. Stupidity and lack of education are two very different things. I think stupidity is mostly a result of the lack of education. How can you call a person who, in a street survey, being asked who Kopernik was, answers: 1. "I don`t know." 2. "He discovered America." 3. "The first Pole in space." 4. "An astronaut." The survey is not bogus, it really took place and some answers were like the above. How can you call such a person? I think I would call him/her a moron. Adding a blockhead, chump, dweeb and dork ha ha ha. Don`t you agree that the lack of education makes people look and sound stupid?
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Dec 19, 2005 14:29:58 GMT -7
if they have any stereotypes of Poland now - it would be the country of Walesa, pope and Solidarity. I think this is better this way. Of course, it would be better. But it depends on us if the negative stereotypes still exist or they fall into oblivion.
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george
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 568
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Post by george on Dec 19, 2005 18:43:00 GMT -7
I'm a third generatopn Pole. Growing up in a Polish neighberhood there was a small minority of Poles directly from Poland. Second generation Poles ( people my parents age ) showed bigiotry towards Poles. I could never understand this, even as a young child. Afterall, their parents were from the old country. Why would they look down on them? Some of their bigitry was that( DP's as they called them ) they were unsofisticated ( which they probably were ) were foreign in their mannerisim. They followed the Catholic faith with enthusiasm, but their kids seemed to run wild. Their hair was never combed and their clothes were ill fitting. On the other hand, the second generation of Polish Americans were not that different. They were not well educated and were very often embarassing to their siblings. Their diction often was horrible, even though they were brought up in this country. In so far as cleaningness is concerned, second generation Poles were emaculate. Polish neiberhoods were the cleanest of any ethnic enclave of any city. Why that steryotype existed is beyound me ( if germans had anything to do with this, spare me. I've been to Germany and beleive me the daily shower there was not followed ) Polish Americans were not well edcucated and it showed. That caused the many jokes that went around years ago and thankfully had faded away. Third and fourth generations of American Poles have benn fantastically succesfull. Why? Because they had the oportunity!One more thing. In America Poles were always known as so very hard working. They pulled themselves up by their boostraps throgh their hard work. They were cery succesful!
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Post by pieter on Nov 28, 2007 15:37:31 GMT -7
www.britishcouncil.it/students/rome/TypicalPoles.htmTHE STEREOTYPE OF A POLE IN THE EYES OF LITHUANIANSThe stereotype of a Pole in Lithuania, reconstructed on the basis of linguistic data, historical sources, press articles and folklore, in which the contemporary consciousness of Lithuanians is reflected in several ways. The authoresses have also conducted a questionnaire among students in Vilnius, making use of some of the questions from the Lublin LAS questionnaire (the ethnonym and its understanding, its synonyms, the characteristics and appearance of a typical representative, the valence of the expressions 'the Polish way' or 'like a Pole', the ways of complementing the formula 'he/she is a Pole but...', jokes and proverbs), and enriched it with questions about symbolic figures.The basic factors shaping the stereotype of a Pole and Poland in Lithuania were historical events, a strong and long-lasting influence of Poland on Lithuania in numerous spheres of life. The stereotype of a Pole has taken shape as a reflection of the resistance of Lithuanians to the process of Polonization, a resistance gaining in strength since the end of the 19th century, as well as of the development of nationalistic ideology in Lithuanian society. The Lithuanian stereotype of a Pole embraced various aspects of clear axiological overtones: social (a Pole used to be a member of the gentry, a persons of higher rank, now: a tradesman, businessman, thief), physical (a characteristic appearance, e.g. clothes), psychological (traits of character and patterns of behaviour, among which dominate conceit, the feeling of superiority over Lithuanians, cunningness and craft), ideological (excessive piety). Particular attention is paid to the Polish language, which is reflected in numerous paraphrases, parodies and sayings. The attitude of Lithuanians to Poles rests on the fear of a possible threat from the latter. A negative stereotype of a Pole has arisen from the historical complex of a suppressed nation. It is interesting that the complex surfaces in relation to Lithuanian-based Poles but not in relation to Poland as a country, which Lithuanians perceive in mildly positive terms and even take pride in the common past of the two nations.
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Post by pieter on Nov 28, 2007 15:42:14 GMT -7
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Post by valpomike on Nov 28, 2007 18:41:51 GMT -7
To all,
I grew up in a Polish part of Gary, Indiana, and we were not treated bad, in fact many looked up to us. My Grandparents were born in Poland. I just wish I could had been able to speak Polish, and still do. I know some, but not enough. Polish are good, hard working, family people. I am proud to be Polish, so are my children, and grandchildren.
Michael Dabrowski
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Post by leslie on Nov 29, 2007 5:07:59 GMT -7
I'm sure I got this picture 'The Polish Farmer and his Wife' off the forum some time ago: It summarises a wider picture that many English believe about Poles, although this is changing since we had so many Polish immigrants and it was seen that so many of them are good, hard, skilled workers. However, there has been a significant number who entered the country who are the opposite of those described above, and as we know, negative stereotypes always seem to drown out the positive ones. So I think many English people are in an even confused state about the Poles than they were before. And the 'twins' did nothing to help a positive image with their method of approach when they wanted (demanded) something from the EU. Negativity often occurs when there has been little contact. I reported some time ago a straw poll I conducted in the bar-restaurant I frequent. I asked the question of many of the people there 'Where is Warsaw' - only one person gave the correct answer, with many replies 'Russia' some 'Sweden' and even one 'Belgium'!!! I think there are more British going to Poland on holiday and this should help the contact (apart from British Stag parties in Krakow!). But remember we are, from Warszawa say, about 1000 miles away - distance does not help knowledge. However, in my own small way I try to be an 'ambassador' for Poland with the English, and several have been to (and loved) Krakow on my recommendation. My own personal experiences are that I like the Poles very much as a friendly, open people, except married men who tend to be over-dominant about their wives, particularly in the realm of their having male friends (platonic). I know without asking what some of the longer-serving members of this forum will say about that statement!!! Leslie
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Post by pieter on Nov 29, 2007 6:06:55 GMT -7
Pawian, thanks for an indepth analysis. You and others are probably right that these negative stereotypes about Poland are spread around Germany, Austria but not really behind the ocean. Americans are so consumed by their own country that they do not know too much about foreigners in the first place, if they have any stereotypes of Poland now - it would be the country of Walesa, pope and Solidarity. I think this is better this way. Include in this story the Netherlands, because (unfortunately) these negative stereo-types exist in the Netherlands too. For instance I seldom speek about Poland in a Dutch group of people, because I get tired of the stereotypes and being on the defending side or just being irritated or frustrated about it. It's about the stereotype of the Pole as being an anti-semite, as being "Eastern-European" (whohh, differant, who other accent, fundamentalist, stubborn, strange and etc., etc.), illegal worker (the old immage did not change after the legalisation by the EU membership of Poland), the car thief and also just " Alien". The biggest element behind the stereotype is the fear of the unknown, the Slav culture is unknown, and the fear of the Russian (the Reds, the Commies), is replaced by the fear of the waves of new immigrants of the east. I heared people saying, we have already enough problems with our Turks, Maroccans and people of our former colonies. Now we get a new problem with the Poles, Bulgarians and Rumanians that are comming in and who do not know our language, culture and customs. Stereoptypes fed by Populistic, conservative, nationalist and isolationalist feelings of a population who was lead for decades by liberal and social-democratic governments, who stood for multi-culturalism, extreme tolerance, a political correctness code and affirmative action. The result is this conservative reaction or rightwing Populist revolution. The Poles have to prove themselves and they are doing so, many of them learn the languages of the countries they go to. Many marry with foreigners in those countries, others speak exellent English and German and only stay for a short period to work or study. The Dutch are happy with the work of the Polish workers, and there are business and trade contacts. Ofcourse there are bad apples among the Poles over here too. The drunk idiots, the hooligans (who are as worse as our own Hooligan scum), the criminals and the unpleasent types (every people have nice, general and bad people). Unfortunately the stereotypes are based on the minority of bad apples, and it's very hard to change that. A propaganda ministry of the Polish state should change the image of Poland abroad. I fear that it will take decades or a century to get rid of ancient stereo-types. It's like anti-semitism. There are nearly no Jews over here, but anti-semitism is alive and kicking. There are very few Poles here but Anti-Polonism is alive and kicking as well. Anti-polononism is a hurtful as anti-semitism. I know what it is and does. Pieter
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