Slavic women like Dutch men

[pieter]

Look from 13:37 Dutch men looking for Ukrainian women.

Why do West-European men like Slavic Eastern-European and Central-European women?
Some of the Dutch men with a more conservative and traditional background find Dutch women to independent, to feminist, emancipated, aggressive, selfish and liberal.
They look for a more feminine, caring, soft, traditional woman. Next to that Slavic women are very beautiful and attractive to Westen men.
Ofcourse we have beautiful women and girls too, but these Dutch men don't see it that way. Women from abroad seem to be more interesting for them than their own Dutch women and girls.

Ukrainian women have a strange opinion about Dutch men. That they are all tall and handsome, that they are family related, that they don't drink as much as Ukrainian men, that they treat women
better than Ukrainians, that they are more hard working and that they take good care of women. I can't judge about that as a Dutchman.

Maybe Jaga's Polish friend who has a Dutch husband can?

Cheers,
Pieter

[JustJohn or JJ]

Nov 10, 2017 17:01:18 GMT -7 pieter said:

 Dutch men looking for Ukrainian women.

Why do West-European men like Slavic Eastern-European and Central-European women?
Some of the Dutch men with a more conservative and traditional background find Dutch women to independent, to feminist, emancipated, aggressive, selfish and liberal.
They look for a more feminine, caring, soft, traditional woman. Next to that Slavic women are very beautiful and attractive to Westen men.
Ofcourse we have beautiful women and girls too, but these Dutch men don't see it that way. Women from abroad seem to be more interesting for them than their own Dutch women and girls.

Ukrainian women have a strange opinion about Dutch men. That they are all tall and handsome, that they are family related, that they don't drink as much as Ukrainian men, that they treat women
better than Ukrainians, that they are more hard working and that they take good care of women. I can't judge about that as a Dutchman.

Maybe Jaga's Polish friend who has a Dutch husband can?

Cheers,
Pieter

Maybe this is the reason.

[pieter]

Dear John,

There is maybe a point in that Slavophile poster, but I want to launch a counter offensive and defend the Germanic and Latin-Romanesque women of Europe. I like pluralism, different cultures, tolerance, a liberal democracy, our North-West-European achievements. But I also believe that we have become overorganised, materialistic, technological, individualistic and in fact over worked and stressed by our way of living. We face many challenges in our societies, and thus also challenges in our private lives and relationships. We still have a lot of families, but with fewer children. Next to the traditional families 37 % of the Dutch households today are single person households. I am one of them. From one side it is good for me, from the other demographic side it is bad for the Dutch population.

I like women and girls like you, Jaga, Karl, Kaima, Ludwik, Jeanne, Bonobo (Pawian) and Eric know by now and actually I can choose from a large variety of women in the Netherlands. Dutch blond, brunette, redhead and black haired and black eyed women and girls. The latter have Spanish, French or Jewish (Ashkenazi or Sephardic) genes. Before the non-Western migrants came the Dutch society had European minorities like Germans, Austrian and Swiss people, Flemish people, some Walloon people (we have Walloon churches with French services), some Scandinavians (Danes, Swedes, Norwegians, but mostly Danes), and some Italians, Greeks, Spanish people, Portuguese people, and many people from Central- and Eastern-Europe and South-Eastern-Europe. Dissidents who fled from Stalinism and after that common communism. And before that people who staid in Western-Europe after they tried to immigrate to the USA. We have slavic minorities of Poles, Russians, Czechs (quite a few Czechs by the way), Hungarians (quite a few too), Slovaks, Ukrainians, Serbs, Croats, Macedonians, and some Bulgarians, Romanians and Albanians.

All these migrant communities, expats, students from exchange programs like Erasmus and partners of Dutch husbands or wives came to the Netherlands and in some or another way created their life here. My mother is one of these people. Since the sixties and seventies Turks, Moroccans, Algerians, Tunesians and some Egyptians came to the Netherlands to work as guestworkers in our factories, as welders (Moroccans are good welders), for cleaning companies, as garbage collectors, cab drivers, construction workers and etc. First these men were alone over here and lived in groups in pensions. Later they brought their wives and children over here in the Netherlands. The government, unions, politicians, employers and the society wasn't interested in their integration and assimilation, because everybody believed that they would be over here temporarily. But they stayed, and their children went to school. Some of them did well and other didn't. Some integrated and assimilated and other didn't. Some children also became workers after their basic education, others climbed the ladder. Due to their education some of these children reached middle class and sometimes even high class positions? Why, because as underdogs, as foreigners, as migrants they had to fight harder, learn harder, study harder and struggle harder to reach positions in society.

Many opened their own shop or became civil servant, community worker, coach, contractor (builder), cab driver, bus driver, truck driver, dockyard worker, car driving instructor or worked in the horeca (Hotels, restaurants, café's, pubs, bars, coffeeshops, cafeteria, canteens and etc.).
I like the Döner Kebab, Shoarma ( Shawarma - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shawarma -), Shaslick, Fallafel, Couscous, and the North-African kitchen of the Turkish, Berber Moroccan and Egyptian Arab food stores, Shoarma ( Shawarma) restaurants (where you can also order Döner Kebab, Shaslick, Fallafel and Dutch snacks like Kapsalon, Dutch fries, frikandellen and kroketten). Next to the Greeks, Italians and the Chinese with their restaurants and (Italian) ice stores the Turks have succes with their Turkish restaurants, snack bars, coffee houses, Turkish bars (with beer, wine, whiskey, rum, coca cola, mineral water, gin and tonic and etc. Turkish wine is excellent. This shows that Turkey is both a Muslim country and a secular-humanistic country with the values of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk the champion of secularism, Westenisation of Turkey (he changed the Turkish alphabet from Arab to latin). In the seventies also boat refugees from Vietnam and Cambodja (fleeing from the Killing Field of the Khmer Rouge) came to the Netherlands and Western-Europe and some leftwing dissidents from Chile, Argentina, Peru, and Brazil to escape the rightwing military dictatorships and terror there. So you had and have quite a Latin-American, Iberian (Spanish and Portuguese), French/Walloon community in Amsterdam and the Netherlands. My Dutch Amsterdam girfriends like the latin-American, Spanish-Portugese and Italian cultures so we went a lot to Brasilian, Cuban, Argentian bars, restaurants and dancings in Amsterdam. Flamenco, Fado, Tango, Salsa, Merengue, Rumba, Cha Cha Cha and other Latin-American and Southern-European music, dance, food and drinks were there. And we danced and we ate and we drank the excellent Portuguese, Spanish, Italian and sometimes Argentinian and Chillan wines. I saw the culture of the leftwing intellectual dissidents, of expats, migrants, students and partners of Dutch husbands, wives, boyfriends of girlfriends.

In the nineties and the beginning of this century many people from Bosnia-Herzegovina, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iran, Somalia, Sudan, Nigeria, Syria, Iraq, Ghana, Senegal, Rwanda, Burundi, the Congo, Pakistan, and some from Serbia and Croatia. The people from our colonies Indonesia, Suriname, and the Dutch Antilles were already longer here. Our Gurka's were the Moluccan people, decendants of our Colonial soldiers from Indonesia.

In the Dutch society you have a rich variety of people and thus also women, girls and thus possible partners. I liked women and girls with a migration background, but also saw the cultural differences, the collective pressure from communities to stay in that community and to chose a partner with the same ethnic, cultural and religious background. Despite that fact I know Dutch men with Turkish, Moroccan, Iranian, Kurd, African, Russian (Christian Orthodox), Armenian, Surinamese, South-East Asian (Indonesian, Phillipinian, Thai, Chinese, Japanese and Korean) wives or girlfriends. There are also quite a few Dutch men with Polish wives or girlfriends, or a Russian, Ukrainian or Czech wive of girlfriend.

And I want to say very clearly you have some fantastic blond, brunette, redhead, black hair and black eyed (Mediterranean Dutch), African-Dutch (100% Dutch black women), Hindu (Surinamese women with a brown skin, black hair and black eyes), Indo-European women (very popular under Dutch men and boys and foreign men and boys from abroad. These women and girls combine the beauty of European women with the beauty, refinement and sophistication of Asian women), 100% East-Asian women (Chinese, Vietnamese, Taiwanese, Korean, Burmese, Thai, Phillipinian, Malayan, from Laos) and women from India, Sri-Lanka, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and the Arab, Berber, Tuareg, Maasai, Ethiopian, Eritrean, Somali (Ayaan Hirsi Ali), Sudanese and South-African women.

There is a crazy diversity over here. People from all over the world, all continents, all religions, all life philosophies, all ethnicities and races, every political direction you can imagine.

Still I believe that there are wonderful Dutch blond women, with blue eyes, who are tall, handsome, caring and beautiful. There is nothing wrong with a Central- or Eastern-European woman. For me a Polish girlfriend or wife would be great to learn the language, culture, food, traditions, Polish Roman-Catholicism, Polish society, the Polish economy, Polish politics, Polish people, Polish customs, Polish family life and to reconnect to my own Polish roots, family and the places in which my Polish family had roots.

This is a Polish jewish woman. This is my taste in women. I like girls like her in the Netherlands. I dated girls like her. I like her Polishness in her jewishness. That she doesn't reject her Polish side and that she stands for it.

The same I like about Dutch women and girls, their typical Dutchness, in which there is some cosyness, a relaxed atmosphere and a feeling of coming home and beloning. I like that Dutch atmosphere, that gezelligheid (=cosyness).

Cheers,
Pieter

[Jaga]

Pieter and all other guys,

there are many reasons for Eastern European women and Western guys - to be attracted. I guess, I should not talk about stereotypes but Eastern European guys are often spoiled, they do not take care of themselves.... women on the other hand have to take care of themselves, are feminine, educated but also family oriented.
Western Europe offers more flexibility in family matters - divorce is easier, renting apartment, buying house is easy. In Poland often people have to share the same apartment even after they are divorced which is really hard psychologically and physically.

Western men are also more affluent financially.....they are not usually that wasted as Russian guys (military, alcohol) etc...

[pieter]

Dear Jaga,

It is true that Western European guys due to their sophisticated economies, societies and cultures drink less than let's say Russian-, Ukrainian- and Belarussian men. Open alcoholism or being addicted to alcohol isn't generally accepted over here. But, but alcohol, and alcoholism is a problem over here also. Don't be mistaken in that. I think alcoholism is a problem all over the West. Not in the Muslim world, because alcohol is prohibited or restricted in Muslim countries. And probably you have alcoholism in non-Muslim countries in Africa, Asia too and in Israël, Southern-America, Australia and New Zealand. (A girlfriend of mine saw drunken Russian jews in Tel Aviv, listen to the word, drunken 'Russian' jews -who looked non Jewish and Slavic buy the way, that's what she told me-)

In the Netherlands you have hidden alcoholism and problems which go with that, while in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, and probably Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Romanian, Bulgaria, Slovenia, Macedonia, Serbia, Bosnia (secular muslims) and Croatia you maybe have more open alcoholism, because the use in large quantities of Vodka, miód pitny (drinkable honey), Krupnik (40–50% (80–100 proof) alcohol), Spiritus Rektyfikowany (96% alcohol), Horilka (Ukraine; 40 percent), Pálinka (Hungarian, Romanian; 37% alcoholic beverage), Slivovitz (a fruit brandy made from damson plums), Borovička (40% strong Slovak alcoholic beverage), Brinjevec (Slovenia), Klekovača (Serbia), Țuică (a traditional Romanian spirit that contains ~ 24–65% alcohol by volume (usually 40–55%), prepared only from plums), Rakia in Bulgaria (The alcohol content of rakia is normally 40% ABV, but home-produced rakia can be stronger (typically 50% to 80%, even going as high as 90% at times) and to much Piwo (beer) is a problem in these countries. Unfortunately people link Slavic men and boys to alcoholism. And a negative stereotype of a Pole is a drunken Pole in the Netherlands. And drunken Poles are noisy, cause care accidents and disturb the peace in Houses, pensions and apartments where they stay in neighbourhoods. There is a discussion topic about bad behaving Poles on the other Forum. However the Polish economy, society and culture is more sophisticated and advanced today than Russian an Ukraine, and therefor less Polish women look for Western men. But still there are Polish women who meet and find Western men in a natural and romantic way. My mother and Jaga are good examples of that. In different ways of course.

Jaga, you say the same thing in other words like the Ukrainian ladies say; Ukrainian and Russian guys are often spoiled, they do not take care of themselves, they expect Ukrainian and Russian ladies to take care for them and pay for them - the other way around of the stereotype of the Polish gentleman-. In the West, in the Netherlands women, girls and societies are demanding of partners. In education, in work, in social life, in family life equality, social behaviour, communication, responsible behavioor, social contracts (in partnerships and marriages) are seen as important. Some foreigners who live a longer time in the Netherlands find the Netherlands complicated, due to the refined, subtle social layers, social codes (what to do and what not to do in certain situations) and the existence of social bastions and social groups. Groups of old friends that exist for a lifetime, family structures, professional networks related to jobs, social sport culture which takes an important place in the Dutch society (Dutch people are healthy because they sport a lot and because they eat healthy), and political affiliation. Also social class, political orientation and thus background play a larger role over here than for instance let's say France and the USA.

Alcoholism and for instance drugs addiction are seen over here as social weaknesses and backwardness. There is looked down at Alcoholics with contempt in the Dutch society. Nobody wants a partner who drinks to much. From the other side alcohol is everywhere, next to non-alcoholic 0% beers (a new market which is rising), in homes, at work receptions, at private parties, and like everywhere colleagues sometimes like to hang out with each other after work for a drink in the pub, a beer or wine, to relax, for instance at Fridays, the end of the week, before dinner.


Beer without alcohol, the 0% beers gained popularity in recent years. In the Netherlands the age that people are allowed to drink alcohol was raised a few years back from 16% to 18%.

In the Netherlands in the press and media there were a lot of reports about the negative aspects of alcohol in general and alcoholism in particular. Medics pointed at the dangers of our organs, the dangers for our brains, and medics and social scientists calculated the social and medical cost of chronic alcoholism. The medics also pointed at the dangers for pregnant women. Young couple who drink and smoke to much have the risk of having disabled children, or children with learning disabilities, chronic diseases and etc. There is a lot of attention for that on Dutch television and on Dutch radio. And also in Dutch newspapers and magazines scientists, medics, politicians, health ministers and investigative journalists write about it. Young people are encouraged on some schools not to smoke and not to drink in classes. There is a lot of health education at primary schools and highschools. Dutch mothers want their sons and daughters to eat healthy, sport and try to discourage them to use alcohol or smoke. My mother isn't Dutch by birth, but she was already like that 45, 40 and 30 years ago and still is like that today. She drinks very little. Maybe one glass of wine during a dinner. And not every day. A health culture is developing over here. Similar to the culture who was earlier developed in parts of California and There is also some gap between people who follow the health culture, for instance people who don't smoke, don't drink and some of them who don't eat meat, and the others. Non smokers and non drinkers avoid for instance parties in which is smoked inside and where an alcoholic culture is dominant. Ofcourse Dutch people are like other Europeans and in a limited and healthy way a lot of them enjoy beer, whine, wiskey, bourbon, genever or vodka. I have to say that I combine zero percent (0%) beers with beer with alcohol, to limit my own consumption of alcohol. I drank to much alcohol in the past, and can't undo that. Going out on a to young age (16, started drinking beer at 16, and before that wine), and after that student and artists years with a lot of beer, Bacardi cola's -called Baco in Dutch-, wine, bourbon (Four Roses, Jim Beam, Jack Daniels, George Dickel, I was fond of these American strong drinks, espcecially Four Roses and George Dickel) and later came to appreciate the Scottish and Irish whiskey's. The Irish whiskeys were more soft and gentle and better for my weak stomach. My nature was better fit for whiskey than large quantities of red wine, a alcoholic beverage which was the favorite of my female friends -Dutch women love wine-. Whiskey and beer was my thing and sometimes Dutch genever. At the end of the day in the weekend on 17;00 hours you have a drink, called a 'borrel', and at 18;00 hours you have your dinner. Breakfest at 9;00; and lunch at 12;00 or 13;00 hours. Some people combine breakfest and lunch at 11;00 or 12;00 during a brunch, the late partiers or just people who like brunch. Ofcourse you have different kind of people so others get up early and eat breakfest at 7 or 8 on the morning. Alcohol during the day is custom at receptions, weddings, funerals, or if people relax on a sunny day on a terrace of a café (pub), or inside a café-restaurant if they eat for instance a warm lunch, like dinner instaid of a lunch. Then they have a light meal in the evening without alcohol.

I am not a regular Dutchman, my life above here is discribed like it was. Many people drunk less than I did, and some drunk more. I have lost artist friends due to alcoholism. Being an artist (painter, graphical designer, sculpturist, video artist) is tough. No regular income, hard work, jobs that have to be done next to the artist studio work to survive. Partime jobs, and etc. The romantic notion that artists drink and smoke to much is true, it's part of the artistic life. Art pubs, art galleries with openings (where usually a lot of good wine, beer and sometimes whiskey is drank), art studio parties, drinking at the studio during work. It isn't unusual. A lot of artist die young, because they used to much alcohol and had stressful lives. The only thing and a very important thing that is left of them is their work, their paintings, their sculptures, their letters (correspondences -if they were kept and not destroyed-), their video's, their movies, their photographs (images), their drawings, their music, and their recorded beings (audio [radio] and video recordings of them when they were alive).





Back to the topic of Eastern-European men vs West-European men

Western men they are not usually that wasted as Russian guys (military, alcohol), because that is not accepted in our societies. You lose your driving license and sometimes your car, motorbike, van or truck if you are caught driving drunk as citizen, truck driver, bus driver or motorist. It is a fact that drunken East-Europeans and unfortunately drunken Central-European Poles are a risk and danger on our highways. Their behaviour is unpredictable, crazy, unreliable and they cause serious traffic accidents. Sometimes large (various vehicles involved) sometimes singular (a car crashing against a tree, a Traffic barrier or a Viaduct concrete wall). Drunken Poles who cross highways and roads are a problem too. These are deadly incidents.

So, I understand in the Russian and Ukrainian case why these women want to love that somewhat primitive societies and economies to move to more sophisticated Western societies and Western men. But some have bad luck and end up with a creap, psychopath, lasy bum, low life, idiot or just a dull and shallow man, while their intelligence is about 300% higher than that of their Western men. Often these marriages end up in a divorce, and these Russian and Ukrainian women if they are lucky find another man or have some lonely time in the West. Some go back to Russia or Ukraine, some stay in the West. The West isn't the fairytale these women think it is. People work hard, there is a lot of competition, some guys are secret alcoholics too and some of these women miss the Russian and Ukrainian family life, culture, atmosphere, language, landscape, and of course the city, town or village they came from.

Cheers,
Pieter

[Jaga]

"I think alcoholism is a problem all over the West"

Pieter, yes, I agree, it is just more hidden inside the apartments and the houses. Here in the US there is a terrible opioids problems