Post by pieter on May 2, 2018 16:58:34 GMT -7
Pieter, Dershowitz is another extreme, that probably he presents the majority of the Israel nationalistic public opinion. Palestine term and history is indeed complicated and can be debated by scholars. But it's current status and living conditions are beyond human dignity. People are locked , they are stack with no future. Unemployment is above 50%. While there are beaches, beautiful restaurants, opportunities for Israeli. If this is not apartheid and miserable living I d3ont know is.
Pieter, if you were 20 with no future, Palestinian stuck in Gaza or west bank with check points, no job, but education.?what could you do...besides producing children, that wpuldnbe calledn" potential future terrorists.
Dear Jaga,
The problem is possibly that I am to North-West-European, tot continental European, to Western to understand the reality and mindset of the Middle-eastern people. Don't get me wrong, I don't feel moral superior to them or think I am a better human being. It is just a fact that the geopolitical, climate (natural habitat, natural environment), cultural, religious, ethnic, historical, financial, economical, ideological, political, sociological and antropological situation over there is completely different than in Europe, the USA and even South-Africa.
I live in a largely secular, humanistic, atheist, agnostic, social democratic, liberal christian, new age, pragmatic, technocratic, very structured and systematic (automatic) part of the world with a lot of prosperity, social security (Social wellfare state), egalitarianism, cosmopolitanism, universalism environment, civil society, Democracy, state and Union (European Union). In that political, social-economical, cultural and financial reality the Trias Politica (Separation of Powers, the Rechtstaat -legal system-), Checks and Balances, synergy, cooperation, exchange of ideas (and thus understanding the other), coexistance and equality are seen as important and good things.
In Israel and Palestine and the Arab world you have a different climate (literary it is more hot there. More heat), and culturally people are more temperamental (fierce), more religious, more traditional, more People based (the entity idea of the people; 'We the Palestinians as the people', and 'We the Israeli's as the true jewish people'), more tribal, linked to religious sects (Conservative Sunni Muslim, Orthodox jewish, Druze, Christian Arab, secular jewish, Sephardic, Ashkenazi, Mizrachi -Middle eastern jewish-, Beduin, Armenian christian and etc.).
Israel is strong, because the Ideology which is the foundation of Israel's existence was strong since the second half of the 10th century and thus secular socialist zionists, general zionists, revisionist zionists (rightwing nationalist zionists) and Modern Orthodox religious jewish zionists could build their communities since the late 19th century and the early 20th century and that development continued into the second half of the 20th century after the foundation of the state of Israël.
The situation in Israël and the Westbank is not Apartheid in my opinion, because both the Israeli jews and the Arab Palestinians are Semitic people, and have the same roots and origin therefor. The Arabs stem from the Egyptian wife of Abraham Hagar and the jews stem from the jewish wife of Abraham Sara. The bible and or Koran say that from Isaq came the jews and from Ismael the Arab tribes.
I don't know what I would do if I lived in the Westbank or Gaza. Probably trying to escape the Westbank or Gaza like many other Palestinians did and do. They live in the USA, Europe, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saoudi Arabia, Chile (Southern-America; an estimated 500,000 Palestinians live in Chile), United Arab Emirates (91,000 Palestinians live there), Germany (80,000 Palestinians live there. Some of them in Neuköln, Berlin), Kuwait (80,000), Egypt (70,000), El Salvador (70,000), Brazil (59,000), Canada (50,975), Great Britain ( 20,000 ) and the Netherlands ( 9,000 ), Australia ( 7,000 ) and Sweden ( 7,000 ). Or Jaga I would probably join the Palestinian National Initiative of Mustafa Barghouti or would be a Fatah (PLO) member. The question what I would be if I was an Israeli jew, is more difficult to answer. Maybe a member of Yesh Atid from Yair Lapid or a Meretz member.
As a Palestinian I would probably do anything to become an Israeli Arab, because the life conditions of Israeli Arabs is better than that of the Palestinians in the occupied territories. I would try to work like many Palestinians as a construction worker in one of the jewish settlements or companies or factories owned by Israeli jews, or an Israeli jewish/Palestinian joint venture. You have to earn a living Jaga. And that is the harsh reality. But most probably I would try to escape to the West, like many young Palestinian men and women. Why, because the Westbank and Gaza have no future like you say Jaga.
Maybe I would be completely different than I say I would or think I would be as a Palestinian. Maybe I would be more radical and be or become a member of the Al Aqsa martyr Brigades, the Popular People's Committee's, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), the Palestinian Islamic Jihad or the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades of Hamas or the The Islamic Jihad Organization (IJO). But I don't know Jaga, because I am not a Palestinian.
Cheers,
Pieter