Israel v Iran: Are they heading for a war?

[pieter]

[pieter]

Central to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the question of whether the state of Israel has a moral right to exist. In this talk Dr. Yaron Brook argues that Israel deserves — but is not receiving — America’s moral and political support; that by sacrificing its loyal ally for the sake of appeasing our common enemies, America is undermining its own war on terrorism.

[pieter]

[pieter]

Now I have done my upmost best to find and show the critics of Israel from within. Israeli's who are often viewed by far right and rightwing Israeli's to be traitors, selfhating jews, Arab-lovers, anti-zionists and even Jewish-anti-semites.

In the following video's I try to find the best Palestinian representatives:

In the mid 1990s the PLO and Palestinian intelligentsia returned to Palestine under conditions of political compromise and physical confinement. Being able to return to only a marginal portion of the country under such confinements had a profound impact on those who returned. They became disillusioned with the ideological discourse of the right of return given the political reality under which they actually returned.

Thus, these individuals initiated a new discourse that centered on notions of normalcy and the normalization of daily life, rather than focus on images of Palestine depicted as an idyllic, lost paradise. This normalcy was based on a dual, and often conflicting, agenda to build state institutions by consolidating the new social formations while mediating between the practices of normal society and "heroic" images of Palestine. This turning point is an important conceptual and historic benchmark, marking the time at which the Palestinian narrative began to synthesize different experiences of exiles.

[pieter]

Edward Said was a Palestinian American who was born in Palestine

[pieter]

[pieter]

Rashid Ismail Khalidi (Arabic: رشيد خالدي‎; born 1948) is a Palestinian American historian of the Middle East, the Edward Said Professor of Modern Arab Studies at Columbia University, and director of the Middle East Institute of Columbia's School of International and Public Affairs. He also is known for serving as editor of the scholarly journal Journal of Palestine Studies.



Palestinian Identity



Palestinian Identity: The Construction of Modern National Consciousness (1997), is Khalidi's most influential and most widely cited book. In Palestinian Identity, Khalidi demonstrates that a Palestinian national consciousness had its origins near the beginning of the twentieth century. Khalidi describes the Arab population of British Mandatory Palestine as having "overlapping identities", with some or many expressing loyalties to villages, regions, a projected nation of Palestine, an alternative of inclusion in a Greater Syria, an Arab national project, as well as to Islam. Nevertheless, Palestinian Identity was the first to demonstrate substantive Palestinian nationalism in the early Mandatory period. Khalidi writes, "Local patriotism could not yet be described as nation-state nationalism."

Khalidi emphasized in his work that the Palestinian identity had been fundamentally fluid and changing, woven from multiple "narratives" due to individual and family experiences. He described the identity as organically developed due to the challenges of peasants forced from their homes due to Zionist immigrant pressure, but with Palestinian nationalism also being far more complex than merely an anti-Zionist reaction. Praise for his book appeared in the journal Foreign Affairs, with reviewer William B. Quandt viewing the work as "a major contribution to historical understanding of Palestinian nationalism."

Khalidi also documents active opposition by the Arab press to Zionism in the 1880s.

[Jaga]

Pieter,

thanks for your two most recent posts. Let me still focus on the first one. I will try to reply to the next one soon.

You seem to defend Israel because it is small, but I think Israel is irrational and it a way it creates its enemies because of its aggressive anti-Palestinian and anti-Iranian policies. I understand that there are Shia in Syria and they may be supported by Iranians, but Syria has its own civil war and they are not interested in annihilation of Israel.

+++Most Iranians I knew and know don't support the current Iranian regime, and many Iranians in Iran don't support the regime, but fact is that the current Supreme Leader of Iran Ali Hosseini Khamenei is very powerful and influential via his close ties with the now powerful Revolutionary Guards which he controls, and whose commanders are elected and dismissed by him. Both Israel and Iran are powerful and non-Arab nations in the Middle east. It is clear that many Arab's today see Iran as a greater threat than Israel.
+++

Iran did not attack any other foreign country for ages, at least directly. It is not Iranian anti-Israel view, it is Israel's push for Iran's war which is a problem. Do Iranians feel that what Israel is doing to their country is right? The continuous strife for Iran's war and extending sanctions.....

If you would be an Iranian prime-minister - do you think that if you extend the friendly hand to Israel they would accept it? Israel's policies are so anti-everything which does not put Israel in the center of the universe, that it is scary.

[pieter]

Jaga,

You could say Israel is the last European nation state which was erected outside Europe. I said it before and I believe that Jewish Nationalism or Zionism is based on 19th century German and Italian nationalism and for a considerable part also Polish nationalism. Jewish rightwing zionists (Betar Poland) even admired the anti-semitic Polish ultra-nationalists of that time. I don't defend Zionism nor Palestinian nationalism, but it is a fact that both exist, and that both exist outside the mainstream of the Jewish Diaspora world and the Arab Islamic world.

I also believe that Israel is irrational and has a dangerous Messianic, narrow ethnic, nearly National religious world view. The ethnic jewish state, bases on Jewish history (our ancestors lived there 2000 years ago), jewish culture, Jewish kingdoms (Israel and Judea), Jewish prophets, jewish Patriarchs and Matriarchs (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Sarah, Rebekah, Leah and Rachel) and the existence of the Wailing Wall (the remnants of Second Jewish Temple of Herod the Great). But it is a fact that this jewish majority state exist, and that it has American and other Western allies.

Israel is different from most European and North-American democracies in the fact that it occupies Palestinian land. The army plays a larger role in the Israeli society than in European nations.

The political process

National and local elections in Israel are by universal, direct suffrage, with secret balloting. All resident Israeli citizens are enfranchised from age 18, regardless of religion or ethnicity, and candidates for election must be at least 21 years old. For national races, the system of election is by proportional representation, and each party receives the number of Knesset seats that is proportional to the number of votes it receives.

Israel’s party system has traditionally been complex and volatile: splinter groups are commonly formed, and party alliances often change. Cabinets are therefore invariably coalitions, often of broad political composition, since no single party has ever been able to obtain an absolute majority in the Knesset. Electoral reform in 1992 brought about two significant changes: direct election of the prime minister—formerly the de facto head of government by dint of being leader of the governing coalition—and primary elections to choose lists of party candidates. The primary system enhanced participatory democracy within the parties, while the prime ministerial ballot increased the power of smaller parties, further splintering the composition of the Knesset and making governing coalitions more difficult to maintain. As a consequence, Knesset representation among the two traditional major parties, Labour and Likud, diminished. In 2001 direct elections for the premiership were repealed, and Israel returned to its earlier practice, in which the governing coalition’s leader sits as prime minister. Despite the change, the two main parties continued to face challenges from minor parties and from new ones such as Kadima, which quickly rose to prominence after being formed in 2005.

Political parties are both secular and religious, with the Jewish secular parties being Zionist and ranging in orientation from left-wing socialist to capitalist, and the religious parties tending to have ethnic appeal (Sephardi or Ashkenazi). There are also several Arab parties.

Israeli citizens take an active interest in public affairs above and beyond membership in political parties. The pattern of Israel’s social and economic organization favours participation in trade unions, employers’ organizations, and interest groups concerned with state and public affairs.

Jaga, I will stay somewhere in the Middle between the Israeli and Palestinian peoples, since I believe in a two state solution, but favor a Federal state, or One nation solution mysel on the long term. Since there is no Financial-economical, political and social-cultural equality yet, it will take time to improve the political, financial, economical and social-cultural situation over there. In general I don't believe that it is a religious, nor a cultural, but a political problem. The mindset of Israeli politicians, civil servants who administrate Area B and Aria C, and that of the Israeli military commanders in the Westbank, and the officers and soldiers at the Roadblocks, Watchtowers and along the separation wall.

The problem of disconnected Palestinian communities, of abusive Israeli Border Police patrols, misconduct by Israeli jewish, Israeli Druze and Israeli Bedouin (Muslim) soldiers against Palestinian women, children en men. In the long term the Israeli's will understand that they have to have regional ties, good neighborly relations and that it has a Middle-Eastern future. Europe and the USA might drift away from Israel and follow anohter course in the future. The Second World War and the Holocaust (Shoa) becomming further and further away, since the Holocaust generation is dying en new generations have no direct links and connection to these tragic and disastrous events.

Today Palestinians have their tragedy, heritage, suffering from 1948, 1956, 1967, 1971 (Yom Kipur war), the 51 years of occupation, the First and Second Initifadah's and the Gaza wars. I hope for both people that responsible and sensible Israeli and Palestinian leaders will emerge on stage.

Cheers,
Pieter

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_supporters_of_Israel

[pieter]

[karl]

A bit of contribution to this very good conversation for with Israeli and Arab differences in their respective military:




Karl