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Post by pieter on Jun 29, 2018 14:10:00 GMT -7
Dear Jaga,
Sorry if I sound negative, sour (bitter), know it all or arrogant, but the mentality of professional soccer players in the Netherlands sucks. How do I know this. I am surrounded by soccer fans who are supporters of the Arnhem soccer club Vitesse or Ajax Amsteram or Feyenoord Rotterdam. They all say the same of the players of their own club, the players of other Dutch clubs, and the players of the National Dutch team. They lack perseverance, club loyalty, determination, pride, and patriotism for their nation or their city (city club patriotism).
What is the cause, guilty one or reason of the fact that they lack the good mentality, fighting spirit for their team, their city or nation? Money (Euro's [€) or Dollars [$], they earn millions), the system of transfers (club hobbing soccer players), the international system of soccer, and the fact that soccer players aren't linked to their nation anymore (internationals) . Dutch soccer players play for FC Bayern Munich (Arjen Robben today, and Mark van Bommel, Edson Braafheid, Jan Wouters, Roy Makaay, Martin Jol, Willem Hesselink and Boy Deul in the past), Borussia Dortmund (Dennis Gentenaar, Cedric van der Gun and Harry Decheiver played for Borussia Dortmund), FC Schalke 04 (in the past the Dutch players Marco van Hoogdalem, René Eijkelkamp, Niels Oude Kamphuis, Johan de Kock, Youri Mulder, Wim Suurbier, Orlando Engelaar, Klaas-Jan Huntelaar, Heinz van Haaren, Ibrahim Afellay played for FC Schalke 04), Hertha BSC (Maikel Aerts), MFC Nürnberg (Gerald Sibon), and other Dutch players for VfL Bochum, Hamburger SV, SV Werder Bremen (Eljero Elia), Alemannia Aachen, Bayer 04 Leverkusen (Erik Meijer), SV Duisburg, DSC Arminia Bielefeld, SC Freiburg, VfB Oldenburg, Eintracht Frankfurt, Borussia Mönchengladbach, VfL Wolfsburg, FC St. Pauli and ansa Rostock.
Next to these German clubs Dutch players played and play for Manchaster United, Celtic, Arsenal, FC Barcelona, Real Madrid CF, AC Milan, Inter Milan, Beşiktaş JK (Turkey), Fenerbahçe S.K. (Turkey), and many other foreign international soccer clubs with a large budget for Internationals.
The same is the case with Polish soccer players, they play for German, Dutch, Belgian, French, British, Spanish and Italian clubs.
I think therefor that the loyalty of Soccer players to their nations are less. They play for the club who pays the most millions. Don't get me wrong. If they play well and make good deals for themselves it is good for them. I wish them well. But fact is that they are not connected to the club of their city or the national team of their country, like soccer players with a working class background in the past. Who were pride to play for the soccer club of their city and especially proud if they could play for their national team. But in my opinion some Dutch players were with their mind with FC Bayern Munich, FC Schalke 04, Barcelona or AC Milan when they played for the national team, because they were members of these soccer clubs. That is a fact of today.
Next to that my male colleague soccer experts and some sport journalists today say that the younger generation of soccer players lack the right mentality. They are luxery, money driven, bussy with fency cars, expensive clothes, partying, having a good haircut, nice girls, show news, are snobbish (posh) and spoiled in the eyes of Duch soccer fans, Dutch soccer experts, former Internationals, older soccer players and etc.
So maybe that is the reason Dutch, Italian and Polish teams didn't succeed?
Dutch soccer fans were even so fed up by the bad soccer played by the players of their teams that they attacked their own team.
Cheers, Pieter
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Post by pieter on Jun 29, 2018 14:28:37 GMT -7
Here some of the plays:
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Post by Jaga on Jul 1, 2018 2:50:42 GMT -7
Pieter, I don't think that the players do things only for money, but you are right that since they play for clubs abroad they don't have opportunities to play with their own colleagues in their own league. To the certain extend I am glad to see more equality among the teams. Some teams which we would never expect to make to the finals being equal or better from teams which are on the pedestal.
I was glad to see how much remorse and sorrow Polish and German players felt after their teams lost. German team wrote the letter to their fans blaming themselves but also explaining that they feel really bad for it..... I guess, soccer depends on skills, but there is also some unpreadactibility involved there. I know that Poles suffer lots of injuries, so some players were just not in a good shape, besides, it seems that Poles don't have enough strong players in reserve
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Post by pieter on Jul 1, 2018 6:01:50 GMT -7
Dear Jaga, I don't understand why the some of the Polish players were not in a good shape and why Poland didn't have enough strong players in reserve? Poland has some of the best players in the world. Defenders, good attackers (strikers) excellent Goalkeepers (I remember a good Feyenoord Rotterdam goalkeeper who was Polish, Jerzy Dudek, very popular in the Netherlands, before he played for Concordia Knurów and Sokół Tychy in Poland, and after that he played for Liverpool and Real Madrid as goalkeeper), and Ajax Amsterdam in 2017 bought the 16-year old Polish goalkeeper Mateusz Gorski. 24 JANUARI 2017, the singing of the contract with Ajax by Mateusz Gorski.Poland has excellent conditions for good soccer. The country has a lot of cities and towns with soccer clubs. The Polish Football Association (Polish: Polski Związek Piłki Nożnej; PZPN) stuggled with some management issues and corruption, but Poland is not the only soccer nation with these problems. Besides that fact, or despite the problems the PZPN is a professional organisation which has the backing of the FIFA. The Polish sports ministry also made an attempt to address corruption within the PZPN, but was threatened with suspension by FIFA, which forbids any form of government intervention. I think in this case the Polish government was correct, but in the same time it is good that the FIFA backs a national soccer organisation. Soccer Jaga and my American friends has a huge positive effect in European societies, cities, towns, urban agglomerations, subburbs and even hamlets. In a time in which children have less space outside due to increasing traffic, year after year there are more cars, vans, trucks, roads and highways for traffic, and less playgrounds, sport facilities and space for kids (both boys and girls to play). Obesity is a growing problem amongst children and teenagers. Soccer clubs in the Netherlands and abroad have their charity and sport education programs and organisations. Due to the Arnhem soccer club Vitesse, kids in poorer neighbourhoods can play soccer for instance Vitesse Betrokken (Vitesse concerned) ( www.vitesse.nl/nl/betrokken/projecten ) is such a very good organisation. Back to Poland. Poland is still a country in which fondness of soccer, patriotism and the determination to win for the nation are present. In my opinion more than in Dutch soccer, because Dutch soccerplayers play, live and work in Spain, Portugal, Turkey, Israel, the United Arab Emirates, the UK, Germany, Belgium, South-Africa (Ajax Capetown) and the USA. Many youbg players, wether they have a Dutch or immigrant background, have a future plan. Being trained in a youth soccer training school of one of the professional soccer clubs (Feyenoord, Ajax, Vitesse, PSV, AZ, Fc Utrecht, FC Twente, Ado Denhaag, Willen I, Cambuur, Heereveen, De Graafschap or FC Groningen) and after that move via a transfer to a (huge) international foreign soccer club. Barcelona, Real Madrid, FC Bayern Munich, Borussia Dortmund, Borussia Mönchengladbach, Benfica, Porto, AC Milan, Inter Milan, Roma, Juventus, Machaster United, Arsenal, Liverpool, Beitar Jerusalem, Hapoel Haifa, Maccabi Tel Aviv F.C. (Peter Bosz, former football midfielder and trainer of Vitesse and Ajax and present trainer of Borussia Dortmund, was trainer of Maccabi Tel Aviv F.C. in 2016), and Turkish clubs like Galatasaray SK, Fenerbahçe SK and Trabzonspor. Back to Poland, the the Ekstraklasa is an excellent training ground for the National Polish team and also for international soccer carreers. Again I want to state that Polish soccer players play in other European nations country's primary football competition. Jaga Poles play in English (UK), Russian, Turkish (Osmanlıspor), Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, German, Dutch, Danish, French, Austrian, Belgian (Anderlecht and Genk), Greek, Iceland, Luxemburg, Norwegian, Irish, Swedish, Ukrainian, American, Welsh (UK), Scottish (UK, Northern-Irish (UK), Swiss, Slovakian, Czech, Hungarian, Cypriot, Croatian, Romanian, Bulgarian, Australian clubs and even for a soccer club on the Faroe Islands. Łukasz Cieślewicz (attacker/striker) plays for the club B36 Tórshavn in the Meistaradeildin, the Faroe Islands Premier League is the top level of football in the Faroe Islands. Łukasz Cieślewicz at work (white shirt) as attackerSo, again I don't understand why some Polish players were not in a good shape, and why Poland doesn't have enough strong players in reserve? You have national pride in soccer, in soccer Patriotism comes to the surface. All soccer fans, soccer lovers and sometimes whole nations stand behind their National team. The PZPN and the professional teams of the Ekstraklasa should take an effort in creating time, energy and training for that important international tournament in Russia. What I liked in one of the video's was the fraternity or brotherhood between Poles and Russians in Moscow. There was a Polish mass of soccerfans in Moscow and I didn't saw any violence, agression or negative atmosphere. Probably Poles are seen as fellow Slavs, Slav brothers or just interesting and welcome international guests. It is clear that Russia wanted to show the positive side of Russia. Friendly people, beautiful cities, a good sport culture, good facilities, nice culture and a rich history and heritage. I wonder how the thousands of Poles felt in Russia. Did they meet Russians. How did they communicate with Russians. Did Polish and Russian soccer fans made a positive connection. I always hope that such international sport events create more understanding between peoples. That Poles saw/see that Russians are normal people and that Russians see that Poles are okay. I liked the funny scene that the Poles sang the Kalinka song on the Red Square. I wonder how common Poles and Russians and Poles view each other, if Politics is left out of the conversation and history is forgotten for a moment. Jaga, you knew Russians in Krakow and could speak Russian like you parents? I remember that my mother had a Polish friend in Poznan whom husbant was half Russian and half Polish. His father fled Russian as a 'aristocratic' white Russian. This guy, spoke Russian fluently and once saw the Russian chess player Anatoly Karpov in an Argentinian steak restaurant in Amsterdam where he was with my parents. He walked to the table of Karpov and started a Russian conversation with him. He was a Polish architect with a Russian background. These are one of these strange and funny things that happen in life.
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Post by pieter on Jul 1, 2018 6:13:00 GMT -7
Jaga,
These same I think about the Dutch players and National team in the past, when they lost time after time. I didn't understand why the some of the Dutch players were not in a good shape and why The Netherlands didn't have enough strong players in reserve? The Netherlands has some of the best players in the world too. Defenders, good attackers (strikers) excellent Goalkeepers. Poland and the Netherlands are soccer nations. Germans in my opinion are very good players too, but sometimes to Prussian disciplined, strict, gründlich, structured. They lack the flexibility, dynamism and improvisation of for instance Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Argentinian or Brazillian players. British soccer is very international and has the advantage of having the best elements of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern-Ireland and the Irish immigrants of the past, and in the same time have exellent players of their former colonies (Jamaica, Nigeria, Kenya, Trinidad, British Guiana), and people of other European descent who became British in the past (from Poland, Ukraine, Russia, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, France, Belgium and other nations). Money from rich Russian billionaires who bought professional British soccer clubs made British clubs rich and therefor they can invest a lot in British and foreign players.
Polish and Dutch clubs have less money, less professional managements and less merchandise than let's say Manchester United, Arsenal or Chelsea.
Cheers, Pieter
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Post by pieter on Jul 1, 2018 6:23:58 GMT -7
When there was still hope
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Post by pieter on Jul 1, 2018 6:32:07 GMT -7
Pieter, I don't think that the players do things only for money, but you are right that since they play for clubs abroad they don't have opportunities to play with their own colleagues in their own league. To the certain extend I am glad to see more equality among the teams. Some teams which we would never expect to make to the finals being equal or better from teams which are on the pedestal. I was glad to see how much remorse and sorrow Polish and German players felt after their teams lost. German team wrote the letter to their fans blaming themselves but also explaining that they feel really bad for it..... I guess, soccer depends on skills, but there is also some unpreadactibility involved there. I know that Poles suffer lots of injuries, so some players were just not in a good shape, besides, it seems that Poles don't have enough strong players in reserve The German team did a good job in that.
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Post by Jaga on Jul 18, 2018 2:51:53 GMT -7
Karl,
it is not the intrusion that you came to the discussion of Mundial, Germany played a big role there also. You are right, Poles need to play better as a team and do not get discouraged when they are losing... just like Germans, play to the last moment.
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Post by Jaga on Jul 18, 2018 2:55:59 GMT -7
Only few Polish teams invest in young players, so the system of finding the talents and taking care of them for a long time does not wrk that well. Dear Jaga, I don't understand why the some of the Polish players were not in a good shape and why Poland didn't have enough strong players in reserve? Poland has some of the best players in the world. Defenders, good attackers (strikers) excellent Goalkeepers (I remember a good Feyenoord Rotterdam goalkeeper who was Polish, Jerzy Dudek, very popular in the Netherlands, before he played for Concordia Knurów and Sokół Tychy in Poland, and after that he played for Liverpool and Real Madrid as goalkeeper), and Ajax Amsterdam in 2017 bought the 16-year old Polish goalkeeper Mateusz Gorski. 24 JANUARI 2017, the singing of the contract with Ajax by Mateusz Gorski.Poland has excellent conditions for good soccer. The country has a lot of cities and towns with soccer clubs. The Polish Football Association (Polish: Polski Związek Piłki Nożnej; PZPN) stuggled with some management issues and corruption, but Poland is not the only soccer nation with these problems. Besides that fact, or despite the problems the PZPN is a professional organisation which has the backing of the FIFA. The Polish sports ministry also made an attempt to address corruption within the PZPN, but was threatened with suspension by FIFA, which forbids any form of government intervention. I think in this case the Polish government was correct, but in the same time it is good that the FIFA backs a national soccer organisation. Soccer Jaga and my American friends has a huge positive effect in European societies, cities, towns, urban agglomerations, subburbs and even hamlets. In a time in which children have less space outside due to increasing traffic, year after year there are more cars, vans, trucks, roads and highways for traffic, and less playgrounds, sport facilities and space for kids (both boys and girls to play). Obesity is a growing problem amongst children and teenagers. Soccer clubs in the Netherlands and abroad have their charity and sport education programs and organisations. Due to the Arnhem soccer club Vitesse, kids in poorer neighbourhoods can play soccer for instance Vitesse Betrokken (Vitesse concerned) ( www.vitesse.nl/nl/betrokken/projecten ) is such a very good organisation. Back to Poland. Poland is still a country in which fondness of soccer, patriotism and the determination to win for the nation are present. In my opinion more than in Dutch soccer, because Dutch soccerplayers play, live and work in Spain, Portugal, Turkey, Israel, the United Arab Emirates, the UK, Germany, Belgium, South-Africa (Ajax Capetown) and the USA. Many youbg players, wether they have a Dutch or immigrant background, have a future plan. Being trained in a youth soccer training school of one of the professional soccer clubs (Feyenoord, Ajax, Vitesse, PSV, AZ, Fc Utrecht, FC Twente, Ado Denhaag, Willen I, Cambuur, Heereveen, De Graafschap or FC Groningen) and after that move via a transfer to a (huge) international foreign soccer club. Barcelona, Real Madrid, FC Bayern Munich, Borussia Dortmund, Borussia Mönchengladbach, Benfica, Porto, AC Milan, Inter Milan, Roma, Juventus, Machaster United, Arsenal, Liverpool, Beitar Jerusalem, Hapoel Haifa, Maccabi Tel Aviv F.C. (Peter Bosz, former football midfielder and trainer of Vitesse and Ajax and present trainer of Borussia Dortmund, was trainer of Maccabi Tel Aviv F.C. in 2016), and Turkish clubs like Galatasaray SK, Fenerbahçe SK and Trabzonspor. Back to Poland, the the Ekstraklasa is an excellent training ground for the National Polish team and also for international soccer carreers. Again I want to state that Polish soccer players play in other European nations country's primary football competition. Jaga Poles play in English (UK), Russian, Turkish (Osmanlıspor), Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, German, Dutch, Danish, French, Austrian, Belgian (Anderlecht and Genk), Greek, Iceland, Luxemburg, Norwegian, Irish, Swedish, Ukrainian, American, Welsh (UK), Scottish (UK, Northern-Irish (UK), Swiss, Slovakian, Czech, Hungarian, Cypriot, Croatian, Romanian, Bulgarian, Australian clubs and even for a soccer club on the Faroe Islands. Łukasz Cieślewicz (attacker/striker) plays for the club B36 Tórshavn in the Meistaradeildin, the Faroe Islands Premier League is the top level of football in the Faroe Islands. Łukasz Cieślewicz at work (white shirt) as attackerSo, again I don't understand why some Polish players were not in a good shape, and why Poland doesn't have enough strong players in reserve? You have national pride in soccer, in soccer Patriotism comes to the surface. All soccer fans, soccer lovers and sometimes whole nations stand behind their National team. The PZPN and the professional teams of the Ekstraklasa should take an effort in creating time, energy and training for that important international tournament in Russia. What I liked in one of the video's was the fraternity or brotherhood between Poles and Russians in Moscow. There was a Polish mass of soccerfans in Moscow and I didn't saw any violence, agression or negative atmosphere. Probably Poles are seen as fellow Slavs, Slav brothers or just interesting and welcome international guests. It is clear that Russia wanted to show the positive side of Russia. Friendly people, beautiful cities, a good sport culture, good facilities, nice culture and a rich history and heritage. I wonder how the thousands of Poles felt in Russia. Did they meet Russians. How did they communicate with Russians. Did Polish and Russian soccer fans made a positive connection. I always hope that such international sport events create more understanding between peoples. That Poles saw/see that Russians are normal people and that Russians see that Poles are okay. I liked the funny scene that the Poles sang the Kalinka song on the Red Square. I wonder how common Poles and Russians and Poles view each other, if Politics is left out of the conversation and history is forgotten for a moment. Jaga, you knew Russians in Krakow and could speak Russian like you parents? I remember that my mother had a Polish friend in Poznan whom husbant was half Russian and half Polish. His father fled Russian as a 'aristocratic' white Russian. This guy, spoke Russian fluently and once saw the Russian chess player Anatoly Karpov in an Argentinian steak restaurant in Amsterdam where he was with my parents. He walked to the table of Karpov and started a Russian conversation with him. He was a Polish architect with a Russian background. These are one of these strange and funny things that happen in life.
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Post by Jaga on Jul 18, 2018 3:03:16 GMT -7
France - Croatia resulted in 4:2. I was supporting Croatia, at least they made it to the second place. Their real star was a prime-minister of Croatia Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović, who did not really acted like a typical politicians in the games and showed a more human side: www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/16/croatia-president-kolinda-grabar-kitarovic-world-cupCroatia's real World Cup star? The president in the stands Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović saw all but one game at her own expense while sporting a national team shirt Una Hajdari in Zagreb Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović at the World Cup Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović’s presence at the tournament was described as a pre-election strategy. Photograph: Mahmoud Khaled/EPA She wore the team shirt and cheered as Croatia faced France in a on Sunday. Later, soaked by the rain, Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović smiled in defeat and hugged every player from both teams as the winners were given their medals. By the end of the day, it was the Croatian president who had emerged as her country’s star of the tournament. Mediatoolkit, a Zagreb-based analytics company, found 25% more focus on her in news stories about the final than any of the players on the pitch, including the , Luka Modrić, as well as Ivan Perišić and Mario Mandžukić. More than 80% of the stories were positive, Mediatoolkit said, for a woman who travelled to Russia at her own expense in economy class and often watched from the non-VIP stands – missing only the semi-final against England because it clashed with the Nato summit. Boris Dežulović, a journalist and political commentator, said: “Her presence at the World Cup could definitely be described as an extended pre-election video. “She has used this to reinforce her PR strategy of being the people’s president. This is something she has been doing in Croatia for a while now. “Instead of being limited to the Croatian public, this campaign video of sorts was seen by billions of people all over the world.” Grabar-Kitarović was , presented as the new “polished” face of the conservative Croatian Democratic Union (HDZ). The party faced a slew of corruption charges over the years, the most noteworthy being those involving the , who is involved in five overlapping corruption trials. Grabar-Kitarović, largely a HDZ bureaucrat until the 2015 election campaign, embraced the party’s legacy as the representative of the conservative and patriotic right, joining the lengthy protests and sit-ins of Croatian war veterans that coincided with the pre-electoral campaign. World Cup 2018: complete guide to all 736 players Read more However, with her foreign education, excellent command of English and previous high-ranking position in Nato, Grabar-Kitarović stood in stark contrast to the former generals and brutish local mayors usually associated with the HDZ. Her performance in the World Cup is perhaps the clearest indicator of her role in the HDZ and Croatia’s political sphere, where the president is head of state and the country’s chief representative at home and abroad. While the prime minister, Andrej Plenković, is tasked with negotiating with the head of Russia’s Sberbank, the largest single creditor of Croatia’s biggest and most troubled conglomerate, Grabar-Kitarović exchanged jerseys with Vladimir Putin in Moscow. Executive and operational powers reside in Plenković’s government. Grabar-Kitarović is focused on promoting the values that a large part of the Croatian electorate holds dear – love of country and church – and for the president, another term. Since you’re here… … we have a small favour to ask. More people are reading the Guardian than ever but advertising revenues across the media are falling fast. And unlike many news organisations, we haven’t put up a paywall – we want to keep our journalism as open as we can. So you can see why we need to ask for your help. The Guardian’s independent, investigative journalism takes a lot of time, money and hard work to produce. But we do it because we believe our perspective matters – because it might well be your perspective, too. The Guardian has brought a number of vital stories to public attention; from Cambridge Analytica, to the Windrush scandal to the Paradise Papers. Our investigative reporting uncovers unethical behaviour and social injustice, that helps to hold governments, companies and individuals to account. This work is costly – often we can’t anticipate how a story will unfold, how long it might take to uncover, and whether we will face legal threats that attempt to stop us. But we remain committed to challenging and exposing wrongdoing where we think it is critical – through this we can, together, create meaningful change in the world.
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