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Post by pieter on Oct 8, 2018 11:19:06 GMT -7
Low German recognized as part of the Dutch languageLow German (Low Saxon) (Niederdeutsch, Plattdeutsch, or Niedersächsisch in German, Plattdüütsch or Neddersassisch in Low German, Nedersaksies in Dutch) will become an independent and full part of the Dutch language.A children book in Dutch Low GermanThe Dutch government and the provinces of Groningen, Drenthe, Friesland, Overijssel and Gelderland will sign a covenant this week with which Low Saxon becomes an independent and full part of the Dutch language. The central government promises to protect and promote Lower Saxon through the covenant. Low Saxon is spoken in the Eastern-provinces Groningen, Drenthe, Overijssel, and in the regions; the Northeast Veluwe, the Achterhoek and in Oost- en Weststellingwerf. Language projectsWith the official recognition money is released for language projects, reports RTV Drenthe. Schools that want to promote a dialect in Lower Saxon will also be able to get money easily. Henk Scholte of the Center for Groninger Taal en Cultuur is very pleased with the recognition, he says to RTV Noord. "It is a huge step forward: many doors are opening for us to stimulate the Groningen language, for example for applying for grants." The covenant will be signed on Wednesday.
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Post by pieter on Oct 8, 2018 11:21:15 GMT -7
Groningen Low Saxon
Drenthe farmers Low Saxon language
This video shows the old fashionate farm life of Drenthe which doesn't exists anymore. The tough life of a poor farmers child in a large farm family. You see that religion payed a larger role then than today.
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Post by pieter on Oct 8, 2018 12:32:50 GMT -7
Brilliant Twents (Overijssel) Low Saxon self mockery cabaret
For the first time in the history of a rural Eastern-Dutch Low Saxon Twents (Overijssel province) village a black man walks around in the village and causes some turmoil in that Twents village, where nothing ever happens, because it is a quiet rural village where everything goes like it goes for centuries and decades. The village people call him 'a negro' in their local language. (Some primitive, local Dutch people sometimes still use the word negro, where general Dutch people have abandoned that term for a black man or don't distinguish between black and white at all). The seemingly racist discriminatory humor of the stupid Low Saxon speaking locals turns against these locals themselves. The migrant black man speaks Dutch (with a Surinamese accent) better then them. He is smarter, brighter, more witty and assertive than the 'stupid' locals. The locals want the police to arrest the man because they have never seen a black man in their lives (an excellent example of what Xenophobia is, fear of the unknown) The locals who have zero knowledge of the world and the Netherlands, only of their own region and village. They are very backward and very Low Saxon, Twents-Overijssel, Eastern-Dutch, from a low populated rural area. The Black man has travelled the world, seen South-America (Suriname, Paramaribo), America (New York), England (London) and Amsterdam and Twente, the village near the Twente Town of Almelo. Unfortunately I can't translate this regional/local Duch Low Saxon cabaret. I have to listen carefully to understand the guy.
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Post by pieter on Oct 8, 2018 13:20:52 GMT -7
Veluws Low Saxon dialect from the Province of GelderlandYou have a rich local and regional language and dialect culture with folk tales in regional languages and dialects. Songs in regional languages and dialects, theatre, cabaret and carnaval in the regional language and dialects. Achterhoeks dialectYou see the German influence in the words Für, wir, mit, gahnen (from the German gehen, inbetween the Dutch gaan = going and the German Gehen =going), sehen (instaid of the Dutch zien=seeing), so an, en zo mehr. Low Saxon for me sometimes is a mix or merger of Dutch and German, with some local and regional elements.Acherhoeks Low Saxon rural farmers rock of the rock band Normaal (=Normal)Normaal was a rock band from the Netherlands, more specifically from the Achterhoek region, who sing in Achterhooks, a local variety of the Low Saxon language group. Bennie Jolink (nl), who was an arts student at ArtEZ Art & Design Enschede (nl), stationed in Amsterdam in the 1970s, started the band in 1975 as a reaction to disco and glamrock, in addition to the overall "Dutch snobbery" towards people from the Low Saxon-speaking regions (people like Pieter ), and use of the English language by many other Dutch artists. "Normaal" meaning "normal", suggesting the same: "act normally". The band has since gained national fame, and have had more top 40 hits in the Dutch chart than any other Dutch band. Despite this fact, the band never reached number one. The music could be typified as "heavy country rock", and possibly as a rowdier version of ZZ Top or Status Quo.A hall full of young Dutch farmers. The concert starts with; "Are there any farmers in this hall? The crowd Yeah!!!This band stood for Dutch farmer pride (against the big city), rural identity and was farmer rock and Rock 'n Roll.
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Post by pieter on Oct 8, 2018 13:49:06 GMT -7
Language border conflict in the Low Saxon stellingwerf region in Friesland in the border region with the Drenthe Low Saxon Province.
Stellingwerf low saxon speaking people and border Drenthe people have difficulties with the provocative one language Frisian signs with "Wolkom yn Fryslân". (Welcome in Frisia) They prefer a sign with the Low Saxon Stellingwerf language next to the Frisian one.
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Post by pieter on Oct 8, 2018 14:02:14 GMT -7
The story about the position of Meine van Rinze and the black death played in the Low Saxon Stellingwerfs dialect, in the Stellingwerven. The images of the story speak for themselves and maybe the language is not that important.
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Post by pieter on Oct 8, 2018 14:07:54 GMT -7
Maybe al these video's about these Eastern-Dutch Low Saxon dialects remind Karl about the Niederdeutsch, Plattdeutsch, or Niedersächsisch regional languages and dialects in his West-Germany in the past and the present day Germany today? Maybe Kai also remembers the locals speaking Low Saxon dialects or some Germans who spoke with an accent in his German time?
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Post by pieter on Oct 8, 2018 14:26:44 GMT -7
Heavy Groningen Low Saxon Low Saxon singer and story teller
Ede Stoal op Radio Noord mit wat gedichtjes en ander proaterij
Album with Groningen Low Saxon songs
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Post by pieter on Oct 8, 2018 14:36:06 GMT -7
Tweants Dutch Low Saxon dialect song from the province of Overijssel. An ode to the Almelo city in the eastern Netherlands
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Post by pieter on Oct 8, 2018 14:47:48 GMT -7
I would like to see a Slavic version of this thread in the Polish, Czech and Eastern-German and Slovak border land with the Goral, Kashubian, Silesian, Sorb, Rusyn or Ruthenian regional languages. And the Greater Polish, Lesser Polish, Mazovian, Northern Kresy, Southern Kresy dialects and the distinctive Podhale dialect (Góralski), the Poznanski dialect (spoken in Poznań), and the Lwów dialect (Polish: gwara lwowska). My mother told me that dialects were or are less prominent in Poland than in the Netherlands with it's rich diversity in regional languages or dialects. I wonder if she just said that as a general Polish or Standard Polish speaker or if she is right and that Poland has less a dialectical variety. Is the Standard (General) Polish strong like Standard Dutch. It is a fact that due to the influence and 'indoctrination' of the Standard Dutch education, Dutch radio, Dutch television and Dutch cultural influence of Holland region import to other Dutch provinces makes the influence of the dialects less. I heard that less and less children, teenagers and young adults speak dialects and regional languages, and that the influence of Dutch is growing in the Netherlands.
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Post by pieter on Oct 8, 2018 15:13:40 GMT -7
German Low Saxon (plattdüütsche)m song
It is amazing. That Niedersächsisch sounds very natural, cosy and understandable to me, because it is close to the heavy German-Dutch border dialects and regional languages of Limburg, Gelderland-Achterhoek, Overijssel-Twente and Groningen border region with Germany.
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Post by pieter on Oct 8, 2018 15:21:19 GMT -7
I like this German band who sings in the Cologne city dialect
Nearly all of BAP's lyrics are written in Kölsch, the dialect of Cologne, or more precisely in a Kölsch-influenced derivation of Eifelplatt, a regional variant of the Ripuarian language spoken in the nearby rural Eifel. Not Low Saxon dialect (Low German), but part of the Moselle Franconian dialects ((German Moselfränkisch), a group of West Central German dialects, part of the Central Franconian language area.
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Post by pieter on Oct 8, 2018 16:01:13 GMT -7
A low Saxon Eastern Twente country girl became a national and international pop and country musician
Twents Almelo local dialect interview
Isle de Lange became popular in the Netherlands, but failed to brake through in the USA.In 1998 while being a member of the group Cash On Delivery, she traveled to Nashville, U.S. to record her debut album World of Hurt with top producer Barry Beckett. She became well known in the Netherlands, because her album was recorded in the capital of country music. Although "World Of Hurt" was planned to be released in the States, the record labels in America thought the album was too old-fashioned for the zero's.
Although country music and her kind of pop music is not my cup of tea (I prefer more the Johny Cash, Jannis Joplin and Chuck Berry rough sound and less the smooth kind of music like Ilse de Lange) I have great respect for her talent, her discipline, her dedication to her work and I like her personality and character. She is an example of a Low Saxon dialect speaking rural eastern area girl who managed to enter the stage of the big city Western (arrogant) Holland area in the West, go to America and tour Europe. I think she will become better and better when she grows older and more mature. Like some other great singers who became better then longer they sang. In the Netherlands and probably also in most Western countries of the world people of local rural area's have to find their way in the large cities, where they are seen and treated like strange rural peasents with an awkward regional language or dialect. Someone with a Southern (Soft-G) Brabant or Limburg accent or an Easrtern-Lox Saxon accent first has to go through a period of mockery, being seen as primitive farm people (because they are rural and speak a funny simple farm land accent). The Standard Dutch speaking and Holland dialects speaking Holland people have a strange way of looking at Frisians, Low Saxon people, Zeeland people and the Southern-Dutch Brabant and Limburg people. Some people who go to the Holland cities to study use Standard Dutch there or even learn Holland Dutch city accents (Amsterdam, the Hague, Rotterdam, Delft, Leiden accents) or standard Dutch in the Utrecht city in the Province of Utrechts which is also in the Randstad region (Utrecht plus South-Holland and North-Holland). Some arrogant Amsterdam people say; "First you have Amsterdam, and then you have the rest of the Netherlands, and the rest of the Netherlands are peasants." I love Amsterdam due to the mix of Amsterdam and the important of creative, smart and dedicated people from the 12 provinces despite the Amsterdam attitude towards them. And I love Amsterdam due to the presence of International expats, immigrants and people of other cultures. That was one of the reasons I moved to Amsterdam to study there. I have never liked the arrogance and superior attitude of the Amsterdam people. And simply ignored that and became part of Amsterdam in my own way. I like the diversity of the Netherlands, and thus like these Frisians, Low Saxon people, the Southern-Dutch soft G speaking Brabant and Limburg people (while I myself speak the Hard-G Standard Dutch Holland Haarlem Dutch language), I like the Flemish people (who are close in their language to the Southern-Dutch Brabant and Limburg people, because they also have that pleasent soft G element in their language (I have the hard G, in the sense of the tocuh sch sound scchh. I don't like it particulary, but it is my version of Dutch. It is a work tool not a musical or poetic language for me. I prefer to listen to English, German language and French language music and other languages) and I like the Zeeland people, the South-Holland people, the North-Holland people, the Utrecht people and the Flevoland (Almere and Lelystad cities) people. The diversity, competition and rivalry is what makes the Netherlands. You have the same in Germany and Poland. The competition between cities, regions and the fact that each country has a few regional languages and dialects.
Maybe the Dutch bluntness or directness comes from this competition between Southerners and Northerners, Westerners and Easterners. And in that the competition and rivalry and difference between for instance the Limburg and Brabant people who are also different from each other. And when you look at the East the Low Saxon Groningen, Drenthe, Overijsel, Gelderland, and Twente and Achterhook region people each have their pride, regional and provincial identity and Low Saxon differences and competitions. Never confuse a Twente person for instance with an Achterhoek person and vice versa. Both are good people, but they have a different Low Saxon dialect, different geographic location and a different mentality. Between the North-Holland and South-Holland people there is also a huge difference. Rotterdam, the Hague and Leiden for instance have the South-Holland city dialects. Amsterdam city dialect is different, because it is a mix of North-Holland language, the Flemish of escaped Calvinist merchants during the Eighty years war, elements of the French Huguenots and the Yiddish of the Ashkenazi Central- and Eastern-European jews that came to Amsterdam. So in a sense the Amsterdam city people arrogance is ridiculous, because the roots of their language is aso diverse and they are partly descendants of migrants from Belgium (Flanders), France, Poland, Russia and Germany. I never talk about that with Amsterdam people, because they are to stubborn and arrogant to be able to discuss about this. But I also have nice import Amsterdam friends in Arnhem, who like me moved from Amsterdam to Arnhem.
The story I tell over here ofcourse also counts for places, towns, cities and area's in your USA, Poland, Mexico, Germany, Russia and Denmark.
Cheers, Pieter
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Post by pieter on Oct 8, 2018 17:31:40 GMT -7
Folks,
The last thing I want to say is that I think it is a good thing that the influence of standard Dutch is growing and due to the fact that much people of the Holland provinces (South- and North-Holland) move to the other 10 provinces creates a greater fusion, mixing and thus national unity. In the same time many people of these 10 other provinces move to South-Holland and North-Holland to study and work. Utrecht is comparably to South-Holland and North-Holland, because Utrecht in the Dutch perspective is a large, modern University city, transport hub (Rail transport from the West, North, East and South comes toghether in the center of the country which is the large Utrecht trainstation; and highways from Amsterdam to the South and from Rotterdam in the West to the East -Arnhem-Nijmegen/Enschede/Hengelo-).
Everywhere in the Netherlands you know have a mix of local/regional people, import of other Native Dutch people from other provinces, migrants and European, American/Canadian, Asian and African expats. In that in time the Netherlands are becoming more uniform or united than the segregated parts of the Dutch republic or the 19th century Kingdom and the Polarized Netherlands in the early 20th century and the forties, fifties and sixties. Thank god that era is gone. Today we have to watch very carefully that we don't get a new polarisation between a Muslim minority which lives in Muslim ghetto's, enclaves or peninsula in our cities, towns and Urban agglomerations. We have to continue to work hard on integration, inclusion, education and more mixing. No 100% Turkish neighbourhoods, no 100% Moroccan area's of cities, but more mixed neighbourhoods. In the same time we have to look at the tension and polarisation between the secular native Dutch majority and the religious native Dutch minority. It may sound strange, but on the long term I see a cooperation between the various faiths who form a minority in my country. Christians, jews and Muslims will cooperate on certain things.
The secularists, the atheists, the secular humanist liberal minded people are not always that tolerant or respectful towards people with faith, because in a rational-analytical, empirical, philosophical and political ideological way some atheists or secular humanists feel themselves superior towards the christians, because in the rational atheist, biological, darwinist mindset of these atheists and secular humanists christians, jews and muslims believe in a fairytale, because the bible is just a book of stories made by men for them. God does not exist for them, and there for them the bible, Torah, Talmud, Midrash, Quran, Psalms and Gospels are total irrelevant. Secular ideologies, science, culture, sport, history or human coexistance is relevant to them. In between the secularists and the people of faith you have the agnostic people, the Buddhists and the New Age people.
Back to the subject, I do believe that the growing linguistic unity, cultural unity and thus financial-political and social-economical unity is good for the Netherlands, but I hope that we will manage to keep the regional diversity and the charm of the various regional languages and dialects.
Cheers, Pieter
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Post by karl on Oct 8, 2018 20:25:01 GMT -7
Pieter
My goodness, but you have covered this so very well, what may I say? I was laughing a bit with the one video of: Language border conflict /low Saxon region in Friesland. Lots of luck with signage, best to learn Frisian or stay lost. At least in spite of different language, the name of the town should get the stranger were they are traveling to..
In language, My self simply do not understand Dutch, sorry but I am not very linguistic. Low Saxon {Niedersachsen}, if to listion with understanding, yes. Perhaps this is the key to mutual understanding is with the language of Niedersachsen such as the rosetta stone of long ago.
Whilst living with my foster parents in Cuxhaven, there was many that spoke Sachsenisch, mostly metal workers/welders from Hamburg and Bremen mainly after the occupation was lifted.
At that time, the English were very good in speaking German, and some spoke a little Dansk, but non spoke Frisian which was a little strange, for West of Cuxhaven were many small farms along the Channels and they did speak Frisian, but a little different dialect form North Frisian. This required careful listioning and speaking.
The Following is a Professional language explanation that perhaps would be of help with our respective language differences. If that long past tower of babel had not been built, we would all speak the same language and that would have solved our currant dilemma. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The most obvious common character in grammar is the forming of the perfect participle. It is formed without a prefix, as in English, Danish, Swedish, Norse and Frisian, but unlike standard German, Dutch and some dialects of Westphalian and Eastphalian Low Saxon:
gahn [ɡɒːn] (to go): Ik bün gahn [ʔɪkbʏŋˈɡɒːn] (I have gone/I went) seilen [zaˑɪln] (to sail): He hett seilt [hɛɪhɛtˈzaˑɪlt] (He (has) sailed) kopen [ˈkʰoʊpm] (to buy): Wi harrn köfft [vihaːŋˈkɶft] (We had bought) kamen [kɒːmˑ] (to come): Ji sünd kamen [ɟizʏŋˈkɒːmˑ] (You (all) have come/You came) eten [ˈʔeːtn] (to eat): Se hebbt eten [zɛɪhɛptˈʔeːtn] (They have eaten/They ate) The diminutive (-je) (Dutch and Eastern Frisian -tje, Eastphalian -ke, High German -chen, Alemannic -le, li) is hardly used. Some examples are Buscherumpje, a fisherman's shirt, or lüttje, a diminutive of lütt, little. Instead the adjective lütt is used, e.g. dat lütte Huus, de lütte Deern, de lütte Jung.
There are a lot of special characteristics in the vocabulary, too, but they are shared partly with other languages and dialects, e.g.:
Personal pronouns: ik [ʔɪk] (like Dutch ik), du [du] (like German Du), he [hɛɪ] (like English he), se [zɛɪ], dat [dat] (Dutch dat), wi [vi], ji [ɟi] (similar to English ye, Dutch jij), se [zɛɪ]. Interrogatives (English/High German): wo [voʊ], woans [voʊˈʔaˑns] (how/wie), wo laat [voʊˈlɒːt] (how late/wie spät), wokeen [voʊˈkʰɛˑɪn] (who/wer), [voʊˈneːm] woneem (where/wo), wokeen sien [voʊˈkʰɛˑɪnziːn] / wen sien [vɛˑnziːn] (whose/wessen) Adverbs (English/High German): laat [lɒːt] (late/spät), gau [ɡaˑʊ] (fast/schnell), suutje [ˈzutɕe] (slowly, carefully/langsam, vorsichtig, from Dutch zoetjes [ˈzutɕəs] ‘nice and easy’, adverbial diminutive of zoet [ˈzut] ‘sweet’), vigeliensch [fiɡeˈliːnʃ] (difficult, tricky/schwierig) Prepositions (English/High German): bi [biː] (by, at/bei), achter [ˈʔaxtɜ] (behind/hinter), vör [fɶɜ] (before, in front of/vor), blangen [blaˑŋˑ] (beside, next to, alongside/neben), twüschen [ˈtvʏʃn] (betwixt, between/zwischen), mang, mank [maˑŋk] (among/unter)
Karl
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