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Post by Jaga on Dec 10, 2018 23:26:21 GMT -7
I am surprised but also pleased.... I think that people and politicians learn that saying "NO" is too easy but finding alternative solution is NOT. www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46515743Brexit: Theresa May to meet EU leaders in bid to rescue dealTheresa May will meet European leaders and EU officials later for talks aimed at rescuing her Brexit deal. She will hold talks with Dutch PM Mark Rutte and Germany's Angela Merkel after postponing MPs' final vote on the deal. The UK PM has said she needs "further assurances" about the Northern Ireland border plan to get Commons backing. European Council President Donald Tusk insisted the EU would "not renegotiate" but said leaders would discuss how to help "facilitate UK ratification". Work and Pensions Secretary Amber Rudd said further talks with Brussels would focus on the Brexit "backstop" on the Irish border, which Mrs May earlier admitted had caused MPs "widespread and deep concern". |
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Post by kaima on Dec 11, 2018 5:54:26 GMT -7
So it seems we have a situation where pride of a politician may set the fate of a country, not allowing the passage of time and approaching deadline to affect the snap decision that was made 2 years ago in the heat of passion. A passionate decision made under onslaught from partisan politicians arguing to prove a point and gain status rather than reach the best conditions for the country - and a decision that was 'approved' by some 80,000 of a nation of many millions.
It will be interesting to see if they do put this to a new and conclusive vote or if they ram through the quick decision made 2 years ago - which would confirm their informal title of "Island Apes".
Does May have the balls to stand up to asking the people?
Kai
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Post by karl on Dec 11, 2018 8:05:04 GMT -7
Jaga
The British national pride appears to be endless, they seem to believe that the world rises and ends in the UK. It would appear with this changing of horses midstream is a tactical manner of holding Europe in suspense. But for what actual and realistic reasons? for at this late date in time and space, conditions of related trade have been fairly well completed and a great deal of euros expended in the manner of their pull out decision that was supposed to be set in stone as an absolute.
Now, the Brits are having a change of heart for seemingly setting the cart infront of the horse, now who is to be believed?
It would so appear the Brits best change out their brand of tea or at least watch more close what they are putting in to their tea.
Karl
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Post by Jaga on Dec 11, 2018 23:03:10 GMT -7
Jaga The British national pride appears to be endless, they seem to believe that the world rises and ends in the UK. It would appear with this changing of horses midstream is a tactical manner of holding Europe in suspense. It would so appear the Brits best change out their brand of tea or at least watch more close what they are putting in to their tea. Karl Karl, Great Britain WAS an empire and faded, so there is no surprise that they still believe in their special status just the the US now, Russia wants to but it does not look this way, and Egypt a long time and and... Germany during WW II. |
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Post by Jaga on Dec 11, 2018 23:05:30 GMT -7
A passionate decision made under onslaught from partisan politicians arguing to prove a point and gain status rather than reach the best conditions for the country - and a decision that was 'approved' by some 80,000 of a nation of many millions. .... Does May have the balls to stand up to asking the people? Kai I agree that the passion is not the best way to win the argument, but "asking the people" is also not the best way, since the majority is not always right. I guess, maybe the referendum should have OTHER alternatives than just YES or No question. If NO then WHAT? would be better |
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Post by kaima on Dec 11, 2018 23:39:40 GMT -7
A passionate decision made under onslaught from partisan politicians arguing to prove a point and gain status rather than reach the best conditions for the country - and a decision that was 'approved' by some 80,000 of a nation of many millions. .... Does May have the balls to stand up to asking the people? Kai I agree that the passion is not the best way to win the argument, but "asking the people" is also not the best way, since the majority is not always right. I guess, maybe the referendum should have OTHER alternatives than just YES or No question. If NO then WHAT? would be better But then, who writes the "then What?" It has to be defined in advance and put on the ballot. Yes, the majority is not always right, as when they vote to enslave the minority, or in a lifeboat when 4 people vote to eat the 5th so they can survive. But choices have to be made and we have to live with them. In this case they have had time to think it over and ... revise their earlier decision, or to confirm it if they wish. It is their lives and let them live and die with the consequences, as we are doing with our governments, as Germany did with the Hitler time. Kai |
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Post by karl on Dec 12, 2018 8:53:47 GMT -7
Jaga Perhaps my first reply was a bit rash on the short side, it is perhaps best to add some meat and potatoes to the stew to better the flavour. It is self evident, Theresa May has painted her self in to a corner and as so, will certainly lose her first year as British PM. In short, she is buying time with her delay for a vote in Parliment until she gains a better foot hold to support her case for her Brexit plan. www.voanews.com/a/brexit-deal-vote/4695467.htmlAlthough the common plan of exit is based upon not adjusting to being told by Brussels how to handle the British affairs in regards to immigrants as to a majour point of issue. What chafs their hide is the matter of unemployment benefits being paid to non-Brits who then collect their benifits and live out side the UK to save living cost. But then, those collecting such unemployment beifits have earnt their points taken out of their former wages as matched by their respective employers. So, it would so appear, both sides do carry a good point in their favour. Although then comes the primary rational that whilst collecting unemployment benifits, that respective individual is expected to be activly searching for suitable employment in that respective land of The UK. europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/finding-job-abroad/transferring-unemployment-benefits/index_en.htmWhat has not apparently changed, is the British commitment in military resources with The EU in such case of a common threat. Of course this could change in due time as the currant situation is still in a case of flux. Karl |
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Post by Jaga on Dec 13, 2018 6:10:19 GMT -7
I understand learning eexperiences and consewuences of bad decisions should teach people the lesson. Still, if the decision is so irresonable.... but the country is used to listen to the will of the people - it is hard for politicians to manouver.
This is not exactly choosing Hitler...nobody would go to the military war for Brexit
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Post by Jaga on Dec 13, 2018 6:38:04 GMT -7
Karl, thanks for your very thoughtful reply. You had some great points in your message - collecting benefits for immigrants and also withdrawal of military helpf from the EU. What is surprising - Teresa May - survived the vote and I wish her well. Jaga Although the common plan of exit is based upon not adjusting to being told by Brussels how to handle the British affairs in regards to immigrants as to a majour point of issue. What chafs their hide is the matter of unemployment benefits being paid to non-Brits who then collect their benifits and live out side the UK to save living cost. But then, those collecting such unemployment beifits have earnt their points taken out of their former wages as matched by their respective employers. So, it would so appear, both sides do carry a good point in their favour. Although then comes the primary rational that whilst collecting unemployment benifits, that respective individual is expected to be activly searching for suitable employment in that respective land of The UK. europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/finding-job-abroad/transferring-unemployment-benefits/index_en.htmWhat has not apparently changed, is the British commitment in military resources with The EU in such case of a common threat. Of course this could change in due time as the currant situation is still in a case of flux. Karl |
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Post by kaima on Dec 14, 2018 8:26:11 GMT -7
I understand learning eexperiences and consewuences of bad decisions should teach people the lesson. Still, if the decision is so irresonable.... but the country is used to listen to the will of the people - it is hard for politicians to manouver. This is not exactly choosing Hitler...nobody would go to the military war for Brexit But Jaga, You are adding in foresight that the Germans did not have in 1933 when the NASDAP / Nazis took power - with only 38% of the vote. No one voted for war, but they voted in a nationalistic program that changed the rules and ended hopes of any further democratic elections. The war and its destructive consequences were hardly to be foreseen. Today in America we have a strong minority following for Trump and his nationalistic, personality cult leadership, and constant attacks on our democratic traditions of self-government, with strong movements to restrict the voice of the people, by changing rules of election and condemning our established institutions of government as a "deep state" that is portrayed as working against Trump and the benefit of the people. Today we have no vision of what our future holds, but surely our government and institutions have been changed forever, the route of our seof-government altered by this (presumably) 4 or 8 year diversion. My closing statement applies today as it did back then, we will live and die with the consequences, and as Germany was then , we are today - powerful enough to take the whole world with us, whatever direction we may go. Kai |
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Post by Jaga on Dec 16, 2018 7:40:58 GMT -7
Kai, yes, I realize that the Nazi system was built for quite a time. Still, it initial motivation was different then Nrexit, thereforeI dont siee such dire consequences of Brexit. Epspecially, since it may not happan
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