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Post by pieter on Mar 26, 2019 15:39:47 GMT -7
Karl,
We have different opinions about Thierry Baudet, and that is okay, because in our Danish, German, Polish, American and Dutch democracies we can have different opinions, choices and votes. Thierry Baudet in my opinion is to vain, arrogant, stuck-up ; self-satisfied ; pedantic; full of himself, narcistic, self centered, egocentric, conceited and to much of a flip flop to be called or regarded as a serious politician, leader or future minister or prime minister.
He hasn't achieved nothing yet, and he is a paradox and contradictio in terminis himself. He attacks the intellectual academic elite, while he himself is an academic intellectual. He uses words, sentences, expressions and statements the majority of his following do not understand. Geert Wilders although he lost has a longer political experience, has more charisma and his party the PVV (Freedom Party) existed longer than leftwing, center left and center right opponents thought he and his party would last. Geert Wilders avoided LPF circumstances, the political party of Pim Fortuyn which went down after a lot of internal strive, quarrels, clashes.
Geert Wilders and Thierry Baudet learned from what happened with Pim Fortuyn, Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Both Geert Wilders and Thierry Baudet are threatened by the extreme left and Islamists. I do believe that Thierry Baudet will have to live the same life like Geert Wilders, because radical environmentalists, animal rights activists, Feminists, Antifa (Anti-fascists), communists, anarchists, leftwing socialists, Social Democrats, radical (social) liberals and Muslim migrants really dislike Thierry Baudet . And Thierry Baudet's center right conservative-liberal, social conservative and christian democratic competitors see him as a dangerous rival who takes away votes and members from their parties.
I am sure that the AIVD (the Dutch intelligence service) is monitoring Forum for Democracy, because far right elements in the Dutch society (Peoples Nationalists, Neo-Nazi's, Identitarians, Nativists, Alt right in the Netherlands - www.erkenbrand.eu/en/ -) feel attracted to Forum for Democracy. People want change, and many are looking for a party which is different and more open and democratic and yet nationalist and rightwing populist. And that party is Forum for Democracy. In my opinion the Dutch Alternative für Deutschland and the Dutch FPÖ.Cheers, Pieter
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Post by pieter on Mar 26, 2019 15:46:39 GMT -7
Thierry Baudet in Hungary with English subtitles
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Post by pieter on Mar 26, 2019 15:56:51 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Mar 26, 2019 16:04:41 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Mar 26, 2019 16:08:37 GMT -7
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Post by Jaga on Mar 26, 2019 21:59:01 GMT -7
Pieter,
It is a bit scary to see all these right wingers in Netherlands winning with their anti-EU nationalistic agendas. You are right that the world changed in a way that people are not politically correct. Trumpism is one of the effect of what is happening. I think that the closeness of some of the muslim immigrants - with women in black nigabs, unwilling to adapt, also made the society more willing to reject these new incomers and being more ready to say it openly.
I hope that the final outcome would be the common sense on both sides, but we may have to wait for it.
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Post by pieter on Mar 27, 2019 8:51:44 GMT -7
Dear Jaga,
These Dutch rightwingers (rightwing nationalistic populists) connect to the British Brexit supporters, Polish/Hungarian/Austrian rightwing government supporters, the Trump movement in the USA, the French Rassemblement national (National Rally), the German Alternative für Deutschland (AfD, Alternative for Germany), the Flemish Vlaams Belang (Flemish Interest), the Dansk Folkeparti (DF, the Danish People's Party) and the Sverigedemokraterna (Sweden Democrats).
The distrust and rejection of the center left, centrist and center right political establishment in Continental Europe is large. Ethnocentrism, isolationalism, nationalism, nativism, identitarianism, Euroscepticism, xenophobia, racism and islamophobia are growing in Western-Europe. I think that you are right that a lack of integration, muslim segregation and alienation of the native European populations (who see more and more niqabs, chadors and burqa's) creates hostilities, aversions and voting patterns. People today dare to openly reject migrants, foreigners or aliens. Own people first (Eigen volk eerst), racial nationalism (like black nationalism -Black Power, Black is beautiful- and white nationalism -white power, replacement theories, the Nordic race ideology-), the call to close borders or to built fences or walls are not exclusively American, British, Hungarian or Polish anymore.
The support for Nationalism, isolationalism and xenophobia is growing all over Europe, and that goes with the rejection of progressive ideas, liberalism, tolerance, cosmopolitanism and internationalism. Nationalists, rightwing populists and conservatives find each other in hailing the national state, stressing the importance of national democracies, the Europe of the European Celtic, Germanic, Latin-Romanesque, Slavic, Baltic and Hungarian peoples.
In 70 years we haven't seen something like this. This ethnocentrism and this European international of rightwing populists, National conservatives, ultra-conservative Roman-Catholics and Orthodox christians and nationalists.
In the Netherlands we saw the openly rejection of minorities like Moroccan Dutch and Turkish Dutch people by Geert Wilders and Thierry Baudet. They want less migrants, to close the borders and no refugees. They would love to see the Muslim minorities leaving the Netherlands and Europe.
Cheers, Pieter
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Post by pieter on Mar 27, 2019 9:00:56 GMT -7
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Post by karl on Mar 27, 2019 9:06:47 GMT -7
Pieter
Perhaps my self am on the wrong page of the wrong book with agreement with Mr. Thierry Baudet, for you know him by far more then I do as you work on the same street as him being your work. It is just of observation from afar upon my part of our changing world around us is more so now, in constant change.
It was as my self believe in strong leadership in the stead of the soft shoe manner we see today in our political leadership. Perhaps this is more so in Germany then other wise. We have issues that are being danced about with scared politicians that are trying to keep their positions with the voters, and yet trying to please ever one.
I say the above in spite of being a non-voter, for if at one time a requirement comes up to place an investigation against one, there will no hesitation upon my part. But, this means not that I do not care, for I do care.
People in politics walk a narrow fence, it only takes a bump to knock them off the bandwagen. With this, is the manner of their work that invarible gives cause to venture in areas that they will get dirt on their skirts.
Karl
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Post by pieter on Mar 27, 2019 9:15:24 GMT -7
The Slovenian Democratic Party (Slovene: Slovenska demokratska stranka, SDS), formerly the Social Democratic Party of Slovenia (Slovene: Socialdemokratska stranka Slovenije, SDSS), is a liberal-conservative political party in Slovenia. The Ideology of the SDS is Slovenian nationalism, National conservatism, Liberal conservatism, Right-wing populism, and Anti-immigration. The historically Centre-right to to centre-left SDSS/SDS has moved to the right, like other political parties in Southern-Europe, Eastern-Europe, Central-Europe and Western-Europe.
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Post by karl on Mar 27, 2019 9:30:05 GMT -7
Pieter
Withen the confines of your work, you have exposure to both the people on the street and the politions with their work. In the video: Dutch Neo Nationalism and Geert Wilders response to the reporter as shown. In your estimation, is there a resurgence currantly of Neo Nationalism at present in The Netherlands? My self am not knowing, and for this reason is to ask the question to you. I understand, the question perhaps may sound as of a loaded question, if not to answer, is ok.
Karl
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Post by pieter on Mar 27, 2019 17:31:43 GMT -7
NPO Radio 1 is a public-service radio channel in the Netherlands, broadcasting mainly news and sport. It is part of the Netherlands Public Broadcasting system, NPO. It can be compared with BBC Radio 5 Live.Content rhetoric Baudet goes back to neo-fascist tradition'Saturday, 23 March 2019 | NTR | Editorial staffThe Netherlands is still talking about the special victory speech that Thierry Baudet, party leader of Forum for Democracy, gave this week. For an analysis of this speech, Nieuws en Co consulted with Joep Leerssen, cultural historian and nationalism expert at the University of Amsterdam."Our boreal world is being destroyed", "in this crisis the owl of Minerva has taken off", "we are the product of 300,000 years of evolution". These are a number of remarkable quotes from the speech that Thierry Baudet gave following winning the provincial elections.Very old rhetoricAccording to Leerssen, the roots of this philosophy originate in the beginning of the 20th century. "At that time there was also a kind of cultural pessimism that Europe had its best time," says the cultural historian. "The rhetoric is actually very old". The ideas from that time were also swallowed up by fascism.
But for the inspiration for Baudet's ideas, according to Leerssen, you must go back to a tradition that began with neo-Nazis and neo-fascists in the 1950s. They were looking for a way to justify their own intellectual roots after the havoc of the Second World war. This tradition continued through thinkers such as Alain de Benoist, Jared Taylor and extreme right-wing figures from the circle of Jean-Marie Le Pen.Alain de Benoist (/də bəˈnwɑː/; French: [də bənwa]; born 11 December 1943) is a French academic, philosopher, a founder of the Nouvelle Droite (New Right), and head of the French think tank GRECE.
Benoist is opposed to Christianity, the United States, free markets, neoliberalism, democracy, and egalitarianism. His work has been influential with the alt-right movement in the United States, and he presented a lecture on identity at a National Policy Institute conference hosted by Richard B. Spencer; however, he has distanced himself from the movement.Samuel Jared Taylor (born September 15, 1951) is an American white supremacist and editor of American Renaissance, a white supremacist online magazine Taylor founded in 1990. He is also an author and the president of American Renaissance's parent organization, New Century Foundation, through which many of his books have been published. He is a former member of the advisory board of The Occidental Quarterly and a former director of the National Policy Institute, a Virginia-based white nationalist think tank. He is also a board member and spokesperson of the Council of Conservative Citizens.Jean-Marie Le Pen (French pronunciation: [ʒɑ̃ ma.ʁi lə.pɛn]; born 20 June 1928) is a French politician who served as President of the National Front from 1972 to 2011. A Member of the European Parliament (MEP) since 2004, he had previously been elected to the same position between 1984 and 2003. He also served as Honorary President of the National Front from 2011 to 2018.Strong characteristics of social DarwinismAn earlier statement by Baudet about "the homeopathic dilution" or that of Theo Hiddema about race and IQ stems, according to Leerssen, from social Darwinism. An unscientific view of Darwin's theory of evolution that also stems from the period around 1900 and was also overwhelmed by fascism.
Leerssen: "These philosophical thinkers assumed a survival-of-the-fittest principle in human society and civilizations. A jungle struggle between different cultures, traditions and races in the world, in which it is important that a country has its own keeps ethnic traditions pure and free from hostile races and hostile influences. " According to Leerssen, it is therefore no coincidence that Baudet spoke in his victory speech about "fragments of what was once the largest and most beautiful civilization the world has ever known, a civilization that covered all corners of the globe".
Leerssen has written several books about national stereotypes, historical awareness and nationalism. His field of study, imagology, is not so much concerned with the truthfulness of ideas about the state of society, but how these ideas have spread through time and space. Leerssen is also the lead author of a major encyclopedia about romantic nationalism in Europe.
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Post by karl on Mar 27, 2019 18:49:49 GMT -7
Pieter
{According to Leerßen, the roots of this philosophy originate in the beginning of the 20th century. "At that time there was also a kind of cultural pessimism that Europe had its best time," says the cultural historian. "The rhetoric is actually very old". The ideas from that time were also swallowed up by fascism.}
But for the inspiration for Baudet's ideas, according to Leerßen, you must go back to a tradition that began with neo-Nazis and neo-fascists in the 1950s. They were looking for a way to justify their own intellectual roots after the havoc of the Second World war. This tradition continued through thinkers such as Alain de Benoist, Jared Taylor and extreme right-wing figures from the circle of Jean-Marie Le Pen.}
It is to my own estimation of these words of Mr. Leerßen is very much off target. He is attempting to disqualifie what Mr. Baudet has brought forward. It is an old politician manner of promoting him self as the savour over another.
It is simular to simply saying {The person is lying, but to smooth this over is to instead, say: There is an aberration of the truth here}
The game of politics is very vicious indeed as it is so.
Karl
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Post by pieter on Mar 28, 2019 1:26:17 GMT -7
Dear Karl,Joseph Theodoor "Joep" LeerssenJoseph Theodoor "Joep" Leerssen (born 12 June 1955, Leiden) is a cultural historian, Dutch comparatist and nationalism expert and not a politician.
He is professor of European studies at the University of Amsterdam, where he also holds a Royal Netherlands Academy Research Professorship. He was awarded the Spinozapremie in 2008.
Leerssen studied Comparative literature in Aachen (M.A. 1979) and Anglo-Irish Studies at University College Dublin (M.A. 1980), and received his doctorate from Utrecht University in 1986. He was appointed lecturer in European Studies in Amsterdam in 1986 and was given a professorial chair in the same subject in 1991. In addition, he has held guest professorships and visiting fellowships in Harvard (Erasmus Chair), Cambridge (Magdalene College) and Göttingen. He headed the Huizinga Institute,[2] the Dutch National Research Institute for Cultural History, from 1996 until 2005.
Leerssen has worked in the fields of Irish Studies, imagology and European studies. His main research focus is on the relationship between national (self-)stereotyping and nationalism, and on the historical development of cultural and romantic nationalism in nineteenth-century Europe, using literary texts as a source for the history of ideas.Joseph Theodoor "Joep" Leerssenwww.uva.nl/profiel/l/e/j.t.leerssen/j.t.leerssen.html?1553765089628www.uni-goettingen.de/en/joep+%28joseph+theodoor%29+leerssen/264238.htmlwww.ria.ie/joseph-theodoor-joep-leerssenCheers, Pieter
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Post by pieter on Mar 28, 2019 2:29:49 GMT -7
Dear Karl,
Within the confines of my work, I have exposure to people on the street, civil servants, Public relations and communication people of the local muncipality authorities and the Provincial authorities, corporate people, people of every political colour and political party (from Geert Wilders PVV people and Thierry Baudets Forum for Democracy people, to VVD, D66, CDA, GreenLeft, Labour Party, Socialist Party, the Party for the Animals, ChristianUnion, SGP [Orthodox biblical Calvinist] to Denk [the populist migrant political party]) and the politicians with their work. In the video: Dutch Neo Nationalism and Geert Wilders response to the reporter as shown. In my estimation, a new sort of Dutch Nationalism emerged since the nineties, and that is a nationalism which reacts on the modern, multi-cultural, social-cultural, financial, economical and geopolitical realities of today. I do not agree wit the term Neo Nationalism, because in the past pillarized society we had 4 major pillars; the rather conservative Protestant (Calvinist) pillar, the social conservative Roman-Catholic pillar, the Social Democratic pillar and the general liberal (secular humanist) pillar?
It is true that the Protestant (Calvinist) pillar and the social conservative Roman-Catholic pillar had rather patriotic elements. Especially the Calvinist one, because the royal Dutch house (monarchy) was lead by a Dutch reformed (Queen). Pim Fortuyn, the Fortuynist ideology, Geert Wilders, Thierry Baudet and partly the Christian Democratic leader Sybrand van Haersma Buma had and have some elements of that old 19th century and early 20th century Patriotism. They look at Dutch history, achievements, roots, the Dutch people, their values and the difference of these values with the newcomers, the migrants.
The new element is that they go farther in stressing the differences between native Dutch Western-European people and people who have roots elsewhere in the Netherlands.
I will not compare them to the National Socialist Movement, NSB, from the thirties and early forties in the Netherlands. But they have elements of old 19th century Dutch Patriotism, early 20th century (1900-1910, 1910-1920 and some elements of conservative, nationalist and authoritarian thinkers and politicians of the thirties). But they are not NSB people, neither are their followers. They are to much rooted in the late 20th century (seventies, eighties and nineties) and the 21th century (the last 19 years). The Cold war, Dutch history, the Dutch society, Western-Europe, British and American influences, Continental European culture and history, 911, the murders of Pim Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh, the terror attacks all over Europe, mass immigration, the refugee crisis, the economical crisis from 2008 and the Netherlands today has shaped their mindset.
Yes, they are Dutch patriots, Dutch nationalists, National conservative guys, Eurosceptic, and want less migrants, but there are also differences between them. Sybrand van Haersma Buma is less Eurosceptic, anti-migrant, less anti-Islamic and more mainstream, moderate centrist than Pim Fortuyn, Geert Wilders and Thierry Baudet. Pim Fortuyn was less extreme than Geert Wilders and Thierry Baudet. But it is a fact that Pim Fortuyn inspired Geert Wilders and Thierry Baudet. Baudets party Forum for Democracy is a Fortuynist political party in my (Pieters) opinion. ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pim_Fortuyn )
Cheers, Pieter
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