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Post by bescheid on Dec 11, 2007 15:15:06 GMT -7
Pawian
I have previously of reply to Mary on this subject, and in good faith will so reply to you.
Michal asked of me his honest questions. I have replied as so.
I was a child in this time of war. If my will was to be, non of this would have occurred.
You very well know this, and yet, you have become emotional and angry with me for my candor. The questions were precise, and as so, my answers.
It was not of my will for the war, or for that matter the control of my country by the Nazi partie. And yet, you as a teacher, find my self as blame. For this, shame on you...
Should I be angry with you? No, of course not, I could not in good faith be angry, or for that matter, with Michael. For he is only in pursuit of answers, but the answers were not to his liking and he was hurt. My regret was it was of my self as cause of his hurt, and for this I am very truly sorry.
I know very well what occurred for history has recorded most, not all. I have not the right to speak for German people, for only the individual has that right, I have only the right to speak for my self, and this I do.
Yes, I am a German man, I have served my country in both military and within the government as of present. I serve not of just my entry oath, but by the honour and trust placed in me by my Government.
What I will say: For at the least now, truth has been brought forward by the heat of the moment, of your intrinsic thoughts of my self and my nationality.
Our face is that what we greet the world with, it is the mind behind the face that is allusive.
And so be it.
Charles
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Dec 11, 2007 15:56:46 GMT -7
Pawian I was a child in this time of war. If my will was to be, non of this would have occurred. You very well know this, and yet, you have become emotional and angry with me for my candor. The questions were precise, and as so, my answers. It was not of my will for the war, or for that matter the control of my country by the Nazi partie. And yet, you as a teacher, find my self as blame. For this, shame on you... Of course you are not serious now. Worse, you are manipulative, and that`s a great fault of yours. I said I don`t accuse you of anything connected with Nazism and its crimes during the war. The first thing that I didn`t like in your post was your unfair comparison of the USA to Nazi Germany. It was silly and untrue, that`s all. Besides, I also didn`t like the insensitive manner in which you were talking about the Holocaust and German procured genocide, as if those murdered people were cattle and their annihilation was a good deed of Germans. They were enemies and Germans treated them as ones! Germans used the best technology available!That`s a pathetic explanation of a would be Neo-Nazist, can`t you see it? No, let`s reverse this question. Should I be angry with you? No, I am not. I am only disappointed that all those historical discussions the forum had seen since our last argument provoked by your support for Nazism have brought very little change to your attitude. Which truth are you talking about? The truth that you tend to see good sides of Nazism, as we have already discussed it before? Stop this philosophy and start thinking.
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Post by bescheid on Dec 11, 2007 16:27:39 GMT -7
Pawian
In response to your post reply. Maniplative, yes of course, I am as that, very Maniplative, it is my nature/training and my work.
Withen the scope of the currant historical disccusion, yes, I have followed it with much interest, it is what it is, {historical discussion}events that occured over 62 years past.
My replies of Michaels questions, yes of course, I have answered them in the logical manner that was of that time, over 62 years past.
Neo Nazi typen that I am, I am very sorry for you, for that is not a truth.
If Michael and your self are unhappy with my answers, then do not ask the question.
Charles
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Post by valpomike on Dec 11, 2007 17:18:10 GMT -7
Charles,
This answer is what I need to know, that you feel sorry for this, the killing of so many Polish. I don't understand, a factual answer to precise question, fill me in, please.
Michael Dabrowski
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Post by valpomike on Dec 11, 2007 17:25:57 GMT -7
Charles,
Don't get upset, we are not unhappy with your people did to ours, but the feelings you had on this. I am upset with some of the actions, this, the U.S.A. did, but I will try and stop any thing unfair to others. Michael Dabrowski
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Post by bescheid on Dec 11, 2007 19:48:48 GMT -7
Charles, This answer is what I need to know, that you feel sorry for this, the killing of so many Polish. I don't understand, a factual answer to precise question, fill me in, please. Michael Dabrowski Michael I will answer both your currant post with one. From word book {Websters New World Dictionary} Precise}- Strictly defined; accurately stated;definite- Factual}-Of or containing facts- Michale, I am not angry with you or Pawian. I realize this subject is very close to your heart, and as so, you both are very sensitive. I do understand the feelings of you both and do not wish to hurt either of you. Ok? Charles
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Post by valpomike on Dec 11, 2007 21:24:50 GMT -7
O.K.
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Post by pieter on Dec 12, 2007 7:37:24 GMT -7
Mary But the war took place, and I can't change that! The nazi bastards gave cause for destruction of my country. Charles, I edited your item and let the most important part in tact, the fact that you blame the Nazi's and dislike them. Before that reply I doubted your stance, because like Pawian stated you sounded indifferent or as a technocratic functionairy, who just said we used " superior technology" to wipe out our enemy. The answers looked like the " Kriegersjustitz" sounds I hear from the far right in Germany, who often speak about " Allierten kriegs-verbrechen", and staying silent about the Holocaust and the German attrocities against European populations on the other side. They also take a Revisionist stance in denying the Holocaust, saying that it never took place, and neglecting all the evidence. But you are not a Holocaust denier, not a Nazi or Neo-Nazi and also not indifferant, because else you would not go to the hole of the Lion, a Polish Forum, and discuss historical topics with peolple who are stil very connected and emotional about that past war. I agree with Pawian and Michael that you sounded infifferant in that earlier answers to the suffering of the Slav, Jewish, Gypsy, but also fellow Germanisitc and Latin-European peoples. I did not understand why you took that stance, because it was in contrast with earlier participations on this Forum. I witnessed such contradictions ealier. One time you have a sensitive and sensable humanist stance, in which empathy and compassion rules, but in the same time or a while later you take a bureaucratic, Befehl ist Befehl, like stance like you are part of a National collective, without a free will of your own. That has always been the differance of the German civil servant or functionairy (and those of other countries or systems too), that people are part of a machinery, change their free will and individual responsable for beloning to a collective identity of people, movement, partym ideology or system. We saw the same thing with the east-German Stasi-people, their Vopo's (Volkspolizisten) en Nationale Volksarmee, which terrorised it's own population, was engaged in the opression of the Czechs in 1968, and in which collective system a German sort of totalitarianism existed. Because German communism was differant then the other branches of Communism, it had the example of the Thrid Reich and the Weimar clashes between the Communist (KPD) Rotfront and the SA (NSDAP)and the German police. In the DDR there were also ex-nazi's involeved in the new system. Nazi's changed into communists in one year. From the other side former Rotfrontkampfer changed into SA men during the Weimar period and in the Third Reich. This topic has stirred up emotions and people take sides! We can't change history, but we can take a stance, the Germany of today is differant than the Germany of 65 years ago! Pieter
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Dec 12, 2007 7:49:54 GMT -7
Pawian In response to your post reply. Maniplative, yes of course, I am as that, very Maniplative, it is my nature/training and my work. Hmm, have you ever worked in the East German Censorship Department? hahahahaha And that was your mistake! Why? Firstly, living today, with the modern knowledge of the past events, it is highly irresponsible to answer in the logical manner which is 60 years old. You could answer with such old logic if you had been personally engaged in those activities at the time. But you weren`t, as you said, were you? Secondly, the logic which you are using in your replies is Nazi logic. If you apply it in your reasoning, it means you sort of support it. Isn`t it so? Still wondering why I mentioned Neo- Nazism?? Didn`t you understand when I said "start thinking" We are very happy to ask you questions and get your answers. We are not happy with the answers themselves but it is a lesser problem. Most important is that we are talking.
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Dec 12, 2007 7:54:08 GMT -7
Please, those who have not made your input, please do so. I would like to see what more of you think on this. Michael Dabrowski We are still waiting.... So far only Peter has joined in. Good, Pieter, I had counted on your reply and you have contributed indeed. What about others??? I will give you a few hours more to react.... Then I will respond with all my resources... hahahahahaha
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Post by bescheid on Dec 12, 2007 8:33:58 GMT -7
Mary But the war took place, and I can't change that! The nazi bastards gave cause for destruction of my country. Charles, I edited your item and let the most important part in tact, the fact that you blame the Nazi's and dislike them. Before that reply I doubted your stance, because like Pawian stated you sounded indifferent or as a technocratic functionary, who just said we used " superior technology" to wipe out our enemy. The answers looked like the " Kriegersjustitz" sounds I hear from the far right in Germany, who often speak about " Allierten kriegs-verbrechen", and staying silent about the Holocaust and the German attrocitiesx against European populations on the other side. I agree with Pawian and Michael that you sounded infifferant in that earlier answers to the suffering of the Slav, Jewish, Gypsy, but also fellow Germanisitc and Latin-European peoples. This topic has stirred up emotions and people take sides! We can't change history, but we can take a stance, the Germany of today is differant than the Germany of 65 years ago! Pieter Pieter This discussion is of events of history that occurred over 62 years past. No matter the out come or eventual end of this discussion, the events of that history will not change, nor are we to change those events. What this consist of is not less then a beer hall debate. Nothing less or more. Yes, perhaps my replies are as you describe {official technological replies}, yes of course, they most likely do, for that is what I do. I assemble information, form it in to segmental report form, with associated headings/source descriptions/body of report/summation/personal comments and/or observations. As the situation will require, appear with these reports for detailed analysis before my superiors in presentation. My work in Kosovo was little different. We were only allowed the assignment for a rotation period of 8 months, then reassigned to office work for a rest. Yes, Petier, I understand your consternation with my appeared attitude. But this history under discussion is very past history. The dead are so dead, the stink no longer lingers. It is the living now, that folks need and should be attentioned with. There are events in works now close to Poland that may/will explode into some very active concerns to not just Poland, but America and our currant military presence. With the Neo-nazi people. Never underestimate them. For they now have legal rights originating in Baveria {Bayern}. Our internal department is losing out in the courts with efforts to force them out of Germany. I am confident you meet some in your land. And yes, I do talk with some on occasion. They are individuals and work to support them selves. Some are drop off out of society as useless, but, many are very well educated and use the organization as a vehicle to promote them selves. They are non-the-less internal enemies of my country. And as so, they are subject to observation and surveillance for tracking. But for my department, they are source of eye and ear. We simply create a zone of neutral meeting, use turn the individual as an asset as an information source. It is a form of very soft interrogation with out the individual comprehending as so. Pawian is very correct, I am Manipulative. But on this forum, I do not work, for this is for pleasure and for to provide a space of rest to my thoughts. Charles
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Post by valpomike on Dec 12, 2007 8:43:25 GMT -7
To the rest of you all,
What is your input on this. Tell us what you think, we want to know.
Michael Dabrowski
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Post by bescheid on Dec 12, 2007 9:21:04 GMT -7
Pawian
Thank you for the opportunity of an interesting exchange of thought. But the time has arrived that perhaps I will now bring to stop, my participation with this topic.
My reason of decision is as follows:
We need and must be cognizant of the feelings of other members, with perhaps much sensitivity, that perhaps may find this spirited exchange as very unsettling.
I hold a great confidence you will agree with this decision
I must return to my work, but will be in return in 2 hours. I will at that time, present an official public notice in direct relationship to fore-mentioned discussion.
Charles
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Dec 12, 2007 10:58:31 GMT -7
Pawian Thank you for the opportunity of an interesting exchange of thought. But the time has arrived that perhaps I will now bring to stop, my participation with this topic. No, not yet, please. We should finish it.... Why are you speaking for other memebrs? If they don`t like it, they will tell us personally or say nothing, just ignoring the discussion. Sorry, I will never agree to it!! hahahaha I can see you are evasive! hahahahaha Like Foreign Minister or even President! hahahaha PS. But I hope you won`t withdraw from the discussion altogether. It is better to be more active than passive, even if it involves different views wrestling. Remember, Charles, don`t disappoint me! Stay with us!
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Post by livia on Dec 12, 2007 13:44:04 GMT -7
Why are you speaking for other memebrs? If they don`t like it, they will tell us personally or say nothing, just ignoring the discussion. [/quote]
Not saying anything is not the same to disliking the exchange.. I dislike Charle's cynicism. I was shocked at first. I am not anymore.
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