Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Nov 21, 2007 11:26:26 GMT -7
Pawi, I read this as recurring non-sense that has been propagated for decades and will continue long after we are all gone. 'The allies should have bombed the camps'. With precision bombing of the day? Our propaganda called it 'precision bombing' and people think of it as such today, just as the careless and inaccurate use of the phrase 'Polish death camp' hurts Poland today. The camps were not Polish, they were German-Nazi camps in what was conquered Poland. The 'precision bombing' of the day most often got within half a mile or so of the target at best. The Japs laughed at our great top secret Norden Bomb sight when they got hold of one. The results of the bombing of Europe were horrendously inaccurate. What do these people imagine, one bomb for the ovens, one bomb for the guard's barracks, another for the camp commandant's house, all neatly blown up with debris falling in a neat stack, prisoners unhurt? Bombing was not a realistic alternative. It would have been mass slaughter of the prisoners. Decades after the war, when the Germans would find a dud 500 pound bomb buried in Berlin, they would evacuate all buildings for about 5 city blocks in all directions. Yes, one little bomb (big for the day) would have such damage that it would endanger people so far away. Given the distances to the camps, fuel, air defenses and such anything precise like dive bombing was out of the question. These people live in a world perpetuating fantasy and finger pointing. Kai hey, you forgot, I am writing this on behalf of BJK. You should address him, not me! Still on his behalf, I dare to disagree! How do you know about the deadly results if no attempts were ever made to destroy a single camp? Did they ever try?
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bjk
Freshman Pole
Posts: 31
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Post by bjk on Nov 21, 2007 11:45:15 GMT -7
[They are INDIFFERENT. Do you know what I mean? Indifferent like during the war] Where these Poles also indifferent, like during the war? (The following is a link to the book in question. I am not a bookseller, I do not own stock in Amazon. This is the simplest way of permitting a reader to see what I'm referring to. The professional editorial commentary-as well as reader comments-are of value, and are the primary reason behind my links to them): www.amazon.com/Zegota-Irene-Tomaszewski/dp/1896881157
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Post by pieter on Nov 21, 2007 11:51:37 GMT -7
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Nov 21, 2007 11:56:07 GMT -7
[They are INDIFFERENT. Do you know what I mean? Indifferent like during the war] Where these Poles also indifferent, like during the war? (The following is a link to the book in question. I am not a bookseller, I do not own stock in Amazon. This is the simplest way of permitting a reader to see what I'm referring to. The professional editorial commentary-as well as reader comments-are of value, and are the primary reason behind my links to them): www.amazon.com/Zegota-Irene-Tomaszewski/dp/1896881157Yes, very good. You are on the right track, that`s the way to go. Let`s develop this topic together. PS. One more thing - if you kindly permit me to offer you one more piece of advice - don`t just give a link to an interesting site. Try to read it and choose the most interesting parts which you can paste into the forum with your own commentary. That is more personal and as such more valuable, it also makes it easier for a reader to grasp what you mean. You can also try to find other sites on the subject, not only reviews. For example, to prepare my previous helpful posts about Karski and his mission to the West it was enough to google: Karski Jews report.
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bjk
Freshman Pole
Posts: 31
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Post by bjk on Nov 21, 2007 12:05:48 GMT -7
Let me give you a bit of advice. It is a very dangerous thing to assume you know (as in my case) what a person has read, what his knowledge base is. For example, in your assumption (based on some magical powers you have, maybe) that I have'nt read any of the books that I've provided links to. Or that I know so little about Karski that I need to have long tracts of his reports printed back to me. Or that Americans are ignorant of world matters. Just last week, we here in NYC honored Karski with the unveiling of a new statue placed in the residence of the Polish Consulate: www.nysun.com/article/66269I can speak on my own behalf, I don't need anyone to advocate for me.
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bjk
Freshman Pole
Posts: 31
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Post by bjk on Nov 21, 2007 12:20:41 GMT -7
"Not popular sentiment by any means, and if I suggested so before, I should correct it now. The antisemitic grafitti is made by a few crazed youngsters who think they should follow the fascist ideology."
This is an accurate, correct statement. I would even go so far as to say that the kids who are doing this (and it is invariably juvenile delinquents responsible) have no coherent ideology whatsoever: they seek to create instant attention and notoriety with outrageous acts of vandalism. There was one instance on the Columbia University campus here in NYC ~ 3 weeks ago. It was labelled a 'hate crime' and investigated by the NYC Police Dept. Within a few days, there were 'copycat' acts all over the city. As reprehensible as these images are, to attribute anything more than juvenile stupidity to these acts would be too generous an assessment for those responsible.
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bjk
Freshman Pole
Posts: 31
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Post by bjk on Nov 21, 2007 12:31:43 GMT -7
I just wanted to comment that this letter encapsulates eloquently the continued frustration that Polish-Americans feel in the face of this 'selective' history. Two days ago, there was another recent emergence of this in the popular culture here in the US, something that would be unthinkable if it were said in regard to any other religious/ethnic group: www.nysun.com/article/66739Thanks for posting this for our readers.
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Nov 21, 2007 12:35:31 GMT -7
BJK, Pieter is also lending you his hand. This link is valuable for your discussion. It proves your point that anti-Jewish sentiment is not spread in Poland. Polish teenagers demonstrate against anti-Semitic graffiti
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Post by kaima on Nov 21, 2007 12:38:43 GMT -7
hey, you forgot, I am writing this on behalf of BJK. You should address him, not me! Still on his behalf, I dare to disagree! How do you know about the deadly results if no attempts were ever made to destroy a single camp? Did they ever try? I recognized and addressed the quotation. Don't waste my time trying to speak for bjk. He and I are quite capable of speaking for ourselves, and we will carry on the discourse that WE choose, not what you wish to say for us. If you keep this up you might as well be writing novels and earning a living from it. 'How do you know ... ' If you suggest that if experience is the only teacher, take a hammer and whack yourself in the head. Make it a good whack. You will never know if it really hurts until you try it! 'How do I know about the deadly results...' you don't learn from history or technology or scientific experimentation, do you? If you miss 1000 times, you will try the same method 1001 times and hope for a bullseye? You and George Bush! Kai PS There used to be a saying that if you took 1000 monkeys (pavians) and put them at 1000 typewriters for 1000 years, one of them would end up writing the works of Shakespeare. I guess the internet has proven that theory wrong. Don't take that personally, you are only 1 pavian of many 1000's!
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bjk
Freshman Pole
Posts: 31
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Post by bjk on Nov 21, 2007 12:47:14 GMT -7
BJK, Pieter is also lending you his hand. This link is valuable for your discussion. It proves your point that anti-Jewish sentiment is not spread in Poland. quote] For the record, I did not mention anything about current anti-Jewish sentiment, as I am an American living in the US, and I have no idea what is happening 'on the ground' in Poland. That's why I wanted clarification re: the very first photos you posted, with the German expressions. If, indeed, such graffiti remains untouched, as you claim, then that would be disturbing to me. Here, any such hateful signs are instantly removed. I came across a very interesting article in the last two years that was a discussion of the current climate among Poles today. (I have been unsuccessful as yet in finding a direct link, but give me time). The conclusion was that anti-semiticism is widely and almost universally abhorred by Poles, that many there are disturbed about the image of Poland in places like the US and Israel.
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Nov 21, 2007 12:53:02 GMT -7
Let me give you a bit of advice. It is a very dangerous thing to assume you know (as in my case) what a person has read, what his knowledge base is. It is always so that after a few encounters with a new comer we are able to form an opinion which is based only on our assumptions. The real acquaintance develops after tens, hundreds of posts. There`s a long way ahead. You must forgive me, but in my HO giving links to book advertisements isn`t a good way to let people know that you have read those books. If you knew about Karski, why didn`t you mention him? You only stated: "Everything is known and provided by historians so I am not going to repeat it." I am sorry, BJK, but nothing is known and you should find time to do some googling on your own. It is other people visiting this forum who don`t have time - they won`t do their own research, you must do it for them. You must provide links, paste some quotes and add commentary. If you think they know it already, you are mistaken. Only a few know. Yes, it`s true. But, are you sure you knew it before, and not just today when you googled Karski? OK, then tell us more about Żegota - the organization created by Poles to help Polish Jews.
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Nov 21, 2007 13:00:23 GMT -7
I would even go so far as to say that the kids who are doing this (and it is invariably juvenile delinquents responsible) have no coherent ideology whatsoever: they seek to create instant attention and notoriety with outrageous acts of vandalism. There was one instance on the Columbia University campus here in NYC ~ 3 weeks ago. It was labelled a 'hate crime' and investigated by the NYC Police Dept. Within a few days, there were 'copycat' acts all over the city. As reprehensible as these images are, to attribute anything more than juvenile stupidity to these acts would be too generous an assessment for those responsible. Hey, I can agree on that! Am I not an amiable guy? hahahahaha
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Nov 21, 2007 13:07:47 GMT -7
I recognized and addressed the quotation. Kai, you are so smart! Ooops, I am so sorry. I must have been mistaken about you both. My assumptions were too superficial! hahahahaha I will write a documentary about our discussions. It will be a hit! No, I won`t. I know you want to get rid of me but I won`t give you this satisfaction hahahahahaha Kai, my dear, please calm down. There is really no need to get so excited. Hmmm? How about taking a rest hahahahahaha? The duties of the administrator certainly exhaust you!
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Nov 21, 2007 13:13:50 GMT -7
I came across a very interesting article in the last two years that was a discussion of the current climate among Poles today. The conclusion was that anti-semiticism is widely and almost universally abhorred by Poles, that many there are disturbed about the image of Poland in places like the US and Israel. You should add: abhorred by educated Poles. The problem is that those educated, i.e., with university degrees, make only 13% of the population. The majority is indifferent and minority is openly or covertly anti-semitic. What I worry about is those indifferent ones. Every nation which has had a Jewish population contains antisemitic element. But indifference is also guilt. Like those Poles who went to the funfair next to the fighting ghetto. They were having their fun while Jews were fighting for their honour, burnt alive in their shelters by Nazis. The current director of the Jewish Historical Institute, prof. Feliks Tych, tells about his memories: On the square they installed sort of funfair. Swings, merry-go-round. They were popular. Nearby the fight was going on in the ghetto, one could hear shots and explosions. Those on the swings and merry-go- round seemed undisturbed by it. I could feel it wasn`t their war.And more: I hesitated to get on the carriage. I looked behind the corner. There was a German cannon and a group of youngsters helping German soldiers. They shouted Jude, Jude and pointed to obscure human shapes that appeared in the windows of burning ghetto houses. I felt like game. I got on the horse carriage. A man sitting in front of me said: Jews are frying, but nobody picked up the discussion. Gazeta Wyborcza" wydała z tej okazji specjalny dodatek, w którym opublikowano m.in. tekst napisany przez obecnego dyrektora Żydowskiego Instytutu Historycznego, który wówczas, jako 13-letni chłopiec, ukrywał się po aryjskiej stronie. Prof. Feliks Tych wspomina: "Na placu Krasińskich gościł wtedy rodzaj lunaparku. Stały huśtawki, karuzela, nie pamiętam, czy było coś więcej. Cieszyły się powodzeniem. Było tak, jak to zapamiętał Andrzejewski w 'Wielkim Tygodniu' i Miłosz w 'Campo di Fiori'. (...) Nad placem unosił się dym płonących nieopodal domów, słychać było strzały i wybuchy. Bawiącym się na karuzeli i na huśtawkach najwidoczniej to nie przeszkadzało. Czuło się, że nie była to ich wojna. Nie wsiadłem od razu na platformę konną. Zajrzałem za łuk. Przy rogu Świętojerskiej zobaczyłem działko niemieckie, a wokół niego grupę wyrostków, którzy z okrzykiem 'Jude! Jude!' wskazywali artylerzystom jakieś prawdziwe lub domniemane postacie ukazujące się w oknach domów płonących za murem. Poczułem się zwierzyną łowną. Zawróciłem szybko w kierunku postoju platform konnych i wsiadłem. Kiedy wóz ruszył, jakiś niechlujnie ubrany siedzący naprzeciw mnie mężczyzna powiedział: 'Żydki się smażą', ale nikt nie podjął tematu. Przez resztę podróży wśród pasażerów panowało milczenie".
So, as you can see, there were not only indifferent people but Nazi helpers too.
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Post by Jaga on Nov 21, 2007 14:13:52 GMT -7
Referring just to the graffiti part. These drawings are done by some mindless youth, people who sometimes did not even met a Jewish person in their lifetime. They do it for fun, from boredom. There is no any organized force behind it. Sometimes they use German words to make it stronger. anti-Jewish graffiti is less common that sport graffiti etc. It cannot be taken as a proof that the majority of Polish population is anti-semitic at all! I wish all types of grafffiti were cleaned more often from the walls. Sometimes they "sit" there for many years.
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