Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Nov 22, 2007 22:45:22 GMT -7
Jaga, I take no side in this discussion. People do what they feel they must in order to survive. And others who may have suffered as a result, do what they feel they must as a payback. My personal opinions as to what or who is right or wrong in this protracted argument (dare I call it a dialogue?) is not important. What began as a request from you to help in responding to the view of your secular(atheist?) Jewish friend re Polish anti-Semitism has digressed to a diatribe among Paw, Kai, bjk and yourself. Oh, come on, don`t be so oversensitive! We need to become more energetic in the forum from time to time, that`s all. Most threads here are too sweet and cozy. If you can`t bear lively threads, you`d better stick to Happy Birthday wishes. Top section of the site! hahahahahahaha Wrong! You didn` t see me when I was a punk....I looked great then! Are you another fan of conspiracy theories?
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Post by kaima on Nov 22, 2007 23:44:42 GMT -7
Hej Pawi, I am all for indifference! How can you care for all of the people around the world, it would drive anyone nuts! If people had been less indifferent to Jews` tragedy, how many more lives could have been saved? Even one would matter. OK, enough of hollow ideals and fancy words over past events. If you are not indifferent than certainly you are currently involved in resolving the tragedies of Darfur, mass murder and rapes that are taking place today. "Every genocide is hideous, each in its own grotesque way." With your argument for less indifference and rescuing even one soul, please give us some idea of what your current activities toward this goal are. If you have none, then I must assume your words are hollow. Kai
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Nov 23, 2007 2:21:14 GMT -7
If people had been less indifferent to Jews` tragedy, how many more lives could have been saved? Even one would matter. OK, enough of hollow ideals and fancy words over past events. If you are not indifferent than certainly you are currently involved in resolving the tragedies of Darfur, mass murder and rapes that are taking place today. "Every genocide is hideous, each in its own grotesque way." With your argument for less indifference and rescuing even one soul, please give us some idea of what your current activities toward this goal are. If you have none, then I must assume your words are hollow. Kai Kai, give up your silly demagogery. Or wipe your eyes from the night`s sleep. Do I live in Sudan? I wrote clearly about the indifference to Jewish tragedy that Polish people presented. If it wasn`t enough. I will repeat it clearly: Polish people living in Poland showed indifference to the tragedy of Jews, Polish citizens and neighbours, living in Poland too. Next door. You should have asked me what I would do being a citizen of the occupied Poland under Nazi rule, not of Darfur. I can tell you what: I could take a Jewish child under my roof. Bring it up together with own children. It was a much easier task than hiding an adult person who needed a lot of food and had to remain undiscovered. Children were not so conspicuous. As easy as it was, how many Jewish children weren`t saved by Poles? Satisfied with my answer? PS. Really, every post of yours is worse than the previous. Kai, what has been happening to you? I really expect more from you, I know you can manage better. Is it just exhaustion or something else too? Remember, I always believe in you! ;D
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Nov 23, 2007 2:37:10 GMT -7
Oops, I have found a post which I hadn`t read before. It sort of skipped my attention. I am so sorry, let me make up for it now. Now if it bothered you, why didn't you jump on me then, instead of concentrating your anger at the other fellow? Kai Kai, I didn`t read your post then. After I found BJK`s first post, I started answering it, photos included etc. I was too busy to read other posts. I read your words quoted in one of BJK`s posts. I would never imagine that anyone in our forum was able to use such a phrase. I was sure that BJK brought it from another forum because he constantly referred to some blog. I thought he used his texts twice in two places. Later I read it at last and was very surprised. I hadn`t known you such. That`s all.
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Post by pieter on Nov 23, 2007 2:42:05 GMT -7
Pawian, there was a German police (SS), Polish blue police in general gouvernor part of Poland and also Jewish police in the ghettos. I have to admit, the Jewish policemen do not really look very happy and confident in this picture. Here is one of the picture of the German and Jewish police: Jaga, I my opinion the guy on the right is clearly a German Wehrmacht soldier, and the guy with the Police hat on the left Jewish Getto police. The unhappy jews in the Middle could be prisoners, or members of the Judenrat ("Jewish council", "rada Zydowska", Joodsche Raad in Dutch), because they wear Civilian cloths, look like educated people (probably the elite of the Jewish people), and have a humiliated and sad expression on their faces. The Jewish policeman on the left is smiling. I wonder why? A working class jew who has power over high class jews? Or is that to much classification, and seen from a Dutch point of view. Members of the Judenrat were hated by the Dutch jews, because of their collaboration with the Germans, they were the registrators and administrators of the Germans. But eventhough they were the elite, also they were threatened by the Nazi's. If you do not cooperate with us Asscher (or Cohen) we will deport your wife, son and daughter to the "Labourcamps" in the east. The majority of the Dutch jews were working class or middle class people, the people in the Judenrat were Dutch politicians, bankers, docters and etc. In the war Polish jews had a greater chance to survive than the Dutch and German jews, because they knew Polish and were better prepared for the harsh conditions, because many of them were poor before the war. They knew the environment they lived in and had connections outside the Getto walls, camps and prisons, the Dutch, German, Hungarian, French and Greek jews did'nt. Besides that people of one nationality did not always trust people of another nationality. Dutch jews did not always like the German jewish refugees before and during the war, because the German jews could be "German" arrogant, and in the camps Polish jews were often Orthodox or Jiddish speaking, while many Dutch and German jews were assimilated, Dutch or German feeling jews, who were secular or liberal (religious). Ofcourse you had Orthodox jews in Germany and Holland to, but they were not the majority. Today after the holocaust, many jews became more religious, and the majority of religious jews in the Netherlands and Belgium are Orthodox, even liberal jews turned to orthodoxy. But the majority of jews is secular (non-religious) in my country. I don't know much about the Jewish community in Poland today, only that it is growing and that there is a flight connection between Krakow and Tel Aviv, and that Poland is popular among Israeli's with Polish descent. I know some jews today on a Dutch forum, who do not like the constant attention for the past, and who try to focus more on the living Jewish community, the tradition and cultural elements that were saved. They say there was and is the proof of Jewish life after the Holocaust. We are the proof of Hitlers defeat, together with the state of Israel and the Jewish communities that stayed out of the hands of the Nazi's. The resurection and the succes of the growing of the German Jewish community and the Polish Jewish communities are a proof of that. Germany is even more popular as a destination for Jewish immigrants from the Russian federation and other countries than Israel. The EU as a whole is a popular place to settle for jews nowadays, even though (paradoxicly) there is Islamic and secular (Nationalist) *anti-semitism in Europe (especially Western-Europe). Pieter Links: Image of the Dutch Jewish council in Amsterdam in 1942: nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afbeelding:Joodsche_Raad%2C_najaar_1942.jpgen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Jewish_council* Anti-semitism in Europe comes from Neo-Nazi's, Muslim immigrants (Algerians, Maroccans, Turks, Arabs in generral), Hooligans, and some far left, Anti-Israeli groups who can't destinguish Judaism from Zionism. Many people who point at the Jewish collaboration with Communism forget the Communist anti-semitism, and many Jewish Stalinists were opportunist Atheists who did not give a darn about Judaism. Jews are like any other people you have good, indifferant and bad people amongst them. You had collaborators and vicious traitors among them too who betrayed fellow jews, urned from handing themover to the Nazi's. I read a Dutch book from a Dutch Jewish writer, about a Jewish Kapo in a Dutch concentration camp. This guy was as bad as the German SS, Dutch Nazi's and the Ukrainian Capo's who abused, tortured and killed Jews and (Catholic) Poles in the Concentration camps and during the Warsaw uprising.
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Nov 23, 2007 2:56:14 GMT -7
The Jewish policeman on the left is smiling. I wonder why? A working class jew who has power over high class jews? Or is that to much classification, and seen from a Dutch point of view. I think it is simpler than class divisions. His smile is forced, through tears. He perfectly realizes how dirty his job is, he knows he has turned into an insensitive machine who suports murderers. But, he is ready to adapt to every situation. Germans expect him to round the Jews, he does it. Club them when necessary - he does it. Probably a German photographer expects him to smile for the photo - he does it too.
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Post by pieter on Nov 23, 2007 3:53:08 GMT -7
You are probably right Pawian, I have read about the humiliation of Jewish Police officers by SS-officers, who forced them to dance like in a puppet game, and used them as henchmen. I am glad that the Bund, ZZW and ZOB managed to give the Nazi's a blow in the face with their Getto Uprising. I see the Getto Uprising differantly than the Warsaw uprising. When you know that you are going to die from hunger and thirst, by constant herassment and humiliation until you die, by deportation and death in the camps, you better take up some arms and fight until you die. That is what the Polish jews did in Warsaw, with the help of a few dousen Polish resistance fighters that came to their aid.
People do everything to stay alive, and I know the Jewish Police did, but you had cruel bastards among them as well, they bullied, executed and hang fellow jews like the SS-officers and soldiers and their Blue police henchmen.
I read to many books about the war, and saw to many documentries, movies and documents to be able to get rid of that memory. The best books were that of Primo Levi, Tadeusz Borowski, Heinrich Böll, Gunter Grass, Norman Davies, the diary of Goebbels secretary of the ministry of propaganda, and Victor Klemperer who wrote diaries detailing his life in Nazi Germany. Klemperer used the Nazi vocabulary of that time and descibes very exellently the claustrofobic and impossible way of surviving in a hostile environment that wants your elimination.
Guilty landscape
Visiting Auschwitz and Birkenau was not a cosy Touristic trip for me, because I felt tense and uneasy when I had to go throught the gate "Arabeit macht Frei", and there I understood the meaning of "guilty landscape", I was walking there and remembered fragments of all I had read, seen and heard before. It all melted into one overwhelming experiance. The most freaky thing was, the feeling "I am there" or "I am back". There was a personal connection, I don't know why? I experianced it several times in my life that I was at a certain place and that the "Guilty landscape" was there. There is a unheimische (the German word for uneasy, tense) feeling of not wanting to be there, there is a past which is wrong in that certain place, to much blood, ashes, bones, and bad or evil things have happend there. I felt the same when I was standing in Warsaw next to the Pawiak monument or museum, that is a spot of torture, human suffering, loss, cruelty and evil. In the Netherlands these places are Westerbork, Camp Amersfoort, Vught, the Old jewish neighboorhood (the Amsterdam equivalent of the Warsaw Getto, the Amsterdam Getto), which was destroyed. The ugly new neigbourhood has that uneasy feeling too. I never like to be there and so seldom go to that place which could not get rid of it's past.
Guilty people
Many people have blood on their hands, many people have houses, furniture, art, books, gold and silver from Jews that never came back or did came back at the end of the war, and found out that their house was occupied by another compatriot and that their belongings had gone. People got rich from dead jews, and started companies or businesses with money that was not theirs, in many European countries. The family of the Austrian politician George Haider is an example from such a parasitarian people.
Pieter
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Post by pieter on Nov 23, 2007 4:25:53 GMT -7
Zygielbojm Letter to Polish President
May 11, 1943
To His Excellency
The President of the Republic of Poland
Wladyslaw Raczkiewicz
Prime Minister
General Wladyslaw Sikorski
Mr. President,
Mr. Prime Minister,
I am taking the liberty of addressing to you, Sirs, these my last words, and through you to the Polish Government and the people of Poland, and to the governments and people of the Allies, and to the conscience of the whole world:
The latest news that has reached us from Poland makes it clear beyond any doubt that the Germans are now murdering the last remnants of the Jews in Poland with unbridled cruelty. Behind the walls of the ghetto the last act of this tragedy is now being played out.
The responsibility for the crime of the murder of the whole Jewish nationality in Poland rests first of all on those who are carrying it out, but indirectly it falls also upon the whole of humanity, on the peoples of the Allied nations and on their governments, who up to this day have not taken any real steps to halt this crime. By looking on passively upon this murder of defenseless millions – tortured children, women and men – they have become partners to the responsibility.
I am obliged to state that although the Polish Government contributed largely to the arousing of public opinion in the world, it still did not do enough. It did not do anything that was not routine, that might have been appropriate to the dimensions of the tragedy taking place in Poland.
Of close to 3.5 million Polish Jews and about 700,000 Jews who have been deported to Poland from other countries, there were, according to the official figures of the Bund transmitted by the Representative of the Government,** only 300,000 still alive in April of this year. And the murder continues without end.
I cannot continue to live and to be silent while the remnants of Polish Jewry, whose representative I am, are being murdered. My comrades in the Warsaw ghetto fell with arms in their hands in the last heroic battle. I was not permitted to fall like them, together with them, but I belong with them, to their mass grave.
By my death, I wish to give expression to my most profound protest against the inaction in which the world watches and permits the destruction of the Jewish people.
I know that there is no great value to the life of a man, especially today. But since I did not succeed in achieving it in my lifetime, perhaps I shall be able by my death to contribute to the arousing from lethargy of those who could and must act in order that even now, perhaps at the last moment, the handful of Polish Jews who are still alive can be saved from certain destruction.
My life belongs to the Jewish people of Poland, and therefore I hand it over to them now. I yearn that the remnant that has remained of the millions of Polish Jews may live to see liberation together with the Polish masses, and that it shall be permitted to breathe freely in Poland and in a world of freedom and socialistic justice, in compensation for the inhuman suffering and torture inflicted on them. And I believe that such a Poland will arise and such a world will come about. I am certain that the President and the Prime Minister will send out these words of mine to all those to whom they are addressed, and that the Polish Government will embark immediately on diplomatic action and explanation of the situation, in order to save the living remnant of the Polish Jews from destruction.
I take leave of you with greetings, from everybody, and from everything that was dear to me and that I loved.
S. Zygielbojm
* Szmul Zygielbojm committed suicide early on the morning of May 12, 1943.
** Authorized representative with full powers in the Polish Underground on behalf of the Polish Government-in-Exile in London.
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Post by pieter on Nov 23, 2007 4:45:03 GMT -7
The Persecution of jews in the Netherlands during the second world war
Shortly after it was established, the military regime began to persecute the Jews of the Netherlands. In 1940, there were no deportations and only small measures were taken against the Jews. In February 1941, the Nazis deported a small group of Dutch Jews to the concentration camp Mauthausen. The Dutch reacted with the February strike as a nationwide protest against the deportations, unique in the history of Nazi-occupied Europe. Although the strike did not accomplish much—its leaders were executed—it was a major setback for Seyss-Inquart as he had planned to both deport the Jews and to win the Dutch over to the Nazi cause. As a reaction to the February strike, the Nazis installed that same month a Jewish Council (rada Zydowska, Joodsche Raad): a board of Jews who served as an instrument for organising the identification and deportation of Jews more efficiently, while the Jews on the council were told and convinced they were helping the Jews. In May 1942, the Nazi leaders ordered Dutch Jews to wear the Star of David. Around the same time the Roman Catholic Church of the Netherlands publicly condemned the government’s action in a letter read at all Sunday parish services. Thereafter, the Nazi government treated the Dutch more harshly: notable socialists were imprisoned, and, later in the war, Roman Catholic priests, including Titus Brandsma, were deported to concentration camps. In 1942, a transit camp was built near Westerbork by converting an existing internment camp for immigrants; at Vught and Amersfoort the Germans built concentration camps as well.
High Jewish death toll
Of the 140,000 Jews that had lived in the Netherlands prior to 1940, only 30,000 survived the war. This high death toll had a number of reasons. One was the excellent state of Dutch civil records: the Dutch state, prior to the war, had recorded substantial information on every Dutch national. This allowed the Nazi regime to easily determine who was Jewish (whether fully or partly of Jewish ancestry) simply by accessing the data. Another factor was the disbelief of both the Dutch public as a whole and the Dutch Jews themselves. Most could not believe that the Jews would be subjected to genocide and sent to death camps. This meant the Jews needed to hide in others’ homes, but that was punishable by death. Despite the risks, many Dutch people helped Jews. One-third of the people who hid Jews did not survive the war.
German occupation
Gleichschaltung
Following the refusal of the Dutch government to return, the Netherlands was controlled by a German civilian governor—unlike France, Denmark and Norway, which had their own governments, or Belgium, which was placed under German military control. The civil government was headed by the Austrian Nazi Arthur Seyss-Inquart. The German occupiers implemented a policy of Gleichschaltung (“enforced conformity”), which was characterized by the systematic elimination of non-Nazi organizations. This was an enormous shock to Dutch society because of decades of pillarisation, which meant that nearly every social group (for example socialists, liberals, Catholics and Protestants) had its own institutions. The Roman Catholic Church and some Socialist parties fiercely opposed these actions. All Roman Catholics were urged in 1941 by Dutch bishops to leave associations that had been Nazified. The policy was a complete failure, mainly due to the war and because of the economic situation in the Netherlands. The national-socialist ideology was alien to the approach of different Dutch ideologies in which humanism was the most important element.
Position of the Dutch within the Nazi ideology
Another aim of the German occupiers was to dissolve the Dutch nation and make it part of a greater Germanic, or Aryan, one. The German officials, including those of the SS, Arthur Seyss-Inquart, and Adolf Hitler himself regarded the Dutch as part of the Aryan Herrenvolk.
Oppression
Arbeitseinsatz—the drafting of civilians for forced labour—was imposed on the Netherlands. This obliged every man between 18 and 45 to work in German factories, which were bombed regularly by the western Allies. Those who refused were forced into hiding. As food and many other goods were taken out of the Netherlands, rationing (with ration cards) became a way of controlling the population. Anyone who violated German laws, such as hiding or hiding another, automatically lost his or her food ration. The Atlantic Wall, a gigantic coastal defence line built by the Germans along the entire European coast from southwestern France to Denmark and Norway, included the coastline of the Netherlands. Some towns, such as Scheveningen, were evacuated because of this. In The Hague, 3,200 houses were demolished and 2,594 were dismantled. 20,000 houses were cleared, and 65,000 people were forced to move. The Arbeitseinsatz also included forcing the Dutch to work on these projects, but a passive form of resistance took place here by working slowly or poorly. For the resistance to succeed, it was sometimes necessary for its members to feign collaboration with the Germans. After the war this led to difficulties for those who pretended to collaborate when they could not prove they had been in the resistance —something that was difficult because it was in the nature of the job to keep it a secret.
Collaboration Not all Dutch offered active or passive resistance against the German occupation. Some Dutch men and women chose or were forced to collaborate with the German regime or joined the German army (which usually would mean being placed in the Waffen-SS).
The NSB (National Socialist Movement), during most of the war the only allowed Dutch political party, actively collaborated with the German occupants. In 1941, when Germany still seemed certain to win the war, about three percent of the adult male population belonged to the NSB.
In 1940 the German regime had outlawed all socialist and communist parties; in 1941 it forbade all parties, except for the NSB. The NSB openly collaborated with the occupation forces. Its membership grew to about 100,000. The NSB played an important role in lower government and civil service; every new mayor appointed by the German occupation government was a member of the NSB.
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Post by kaima on Nov 23, 2007 7:24:01 GMT -7
So Pawi,
You are now to the point where you admit to your own indifference to the misery of humanity. You restrict - for the first time - your empathy you expressed earlier to the Jewish people in Poland (and what of the Jews in the rest of Europe, do you include them, or is that a false assumption?). Your call for eliminating indifference does NOT apply to other peoples, to today, or to situations you can actually work to solve and work to save people subjected to genocide today. You remain a mouthpiece for repeating the perpetual bla-bla of talk about the Holocaust of 60 years ago, and refuse to do it homage by working against holocausts of the present day!
You are talking hollow talk using empty words. You have run out of words to present your opinions and a foundation for them, and cannot answer questions that inquire about the basic logic and the foundation of the ideas you present, so you are resorting to personal attacks to create a smoke screen.
Two of your last three posts have been laced with poison pen accusations and personal attacks, not with presentation of your ideas or exposition on the foundation of any ideas. That is recognized as a last resort of the desperate when they can no longer rely on their ideas and reason alone, they attack the person.
It appears you are interested only in the Jewish Holocaust in Europe of 60 years ago, and your words are presented only in this narrow context. Your fancy words are not to be applied to a desire to reduce the misery of mankind and the genocide today, or taking action today to avoid echoes of the historic tragedy. It is very disappointing.
Kai
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Post by freetobe on Nov 23, 2007 12:48:56 GMT -7
Paw, Do you always reply to a post to Jaga? I agree that the forum could use a more interesting form of discourse. I am capable of debate with any body on the forum even you.ha ha ha That is not the subject, here. History as interpreted by later day writers is based on the writer's OPINION which is often clouded by bias. This OPINION is generally accepted and may or may not be correct. If you just want to "break chops" you have succeeded. Your posts containing historical data are very interesting and are likely accurate. Your interpretations as to their relevance is your OPINION. But that is my OPINION. Finally, I'm still waiting for our fearless leader ha ha ha to weigh in with her OPINIONS. Jaga, why not tell your secular Jewish friend that your OPINIONS preclude any discussions on the subject and it is more important to you to maintain her friendship than to state your OPINIONS.
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Nov 23, 2007 13:19:20 GMT -7
Paw, Do you always reply to a post to Jaga? Have I done so before? hahahaha Well, that`s a manner I learnt from another forum. When I scolded a foolish lady for her intrusions into two-people discussion, she answered I could stick myself those self-proclaimed non-intrusion rules you know where and added that if I wanted to prevent other people from replying to my posts, I could send a private e-mail, instead of writing in the public. It could and it uses it in other threads. But here we have to go like that because we are hot heads and can`t restrain our emotions. Hmmm, really? When shall we start? I promise I will be gentle with you..... in the beginning hahahahahahahaha Exactly. Tha`ts what I am doing here. I am presenting certain opinions which are strictly personal. Why do people call me a "punk" (BJK) and "pile of cow`s manure" (Kaima), I don`t grasp it??? Thanks. That`s something that some guys here, especially Kai, don`t understand. He demands incredible things from me, like going to this misery land of Darfur and play God there, while my primary aim in this thread is to show the entangled paths that Poles trod during the war. I started on the Philo-Semite side and I will continue it but I am also working on behalf of BJK who seems to be reluctant in providing us with arguments from his side. Exactly, but tell it to obsessed Kai who cannot accept certain things. Hey, freetube, you sound very relaxed, but self-confident too. hahahahahaha
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Post by leslie on Nov 23, 2007 14:00:04 GMT -7
Pawi
Didn't mean to enter this discussion, but you know me - can't keep my nose out of things.
Just wanted to question whether in your history books of the treatment of the Jews by the Poles (and I am not referring to the 14th, 15th, 16 centuries) but i assume there is mention, probably defensive, of the events in Jedwabne involving Polish Jews, Poles and a burning barn? The date July 1941 and is recorded in several Polish history books.
You always ask when I state an opinion what my sources are!
Leslie
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
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Post by Pawian on Nov 23, 2007 14:01:47 GMT -7
Kai, this is pure manipulation what you are writing in your last post. I have been in doubt whether I should answer all this foolishness but I decided to do it. So Pawi, You are now to the point where you admit to your own indifference to the misery of humanity. Show me one post of mine in this thread in which I talk about humanity. It is you who mention it all the time. But, as you refused to act on my strings, I also refuse to act on yours. You invented this humanity while I focus on Jews and I am not going to change it. All your demands about my considering humanity are silly. Kai, again I have to remind you the thread is about Polish Jews and Polish Poles who lived in Poland. How many times do I have to say this? Can`t you really read my posts more carefully? Of course it doesn`t! I know my limitations. Do you think I consider myself a Jesus? Where do you get those missed arguments from at all? But, I imagine, that living in occupied Poland, I could be minor Jesus by rescuing at least one Jewish child, with God`s help more. Finishing the issue of humanity, let me answer you with the words of a Polish poet: The man who rescues one human life, rescues whole mankind.
Enough? Man, this is pure obsession. I think that is an argument that Anti-semites use in their discussions with the rightoeus gentiles. That the latter have no right to condemn Holocaust because they are doing nothing to prevent genocide today. Kai, are you Anti-Semite? Why aren`t you frank with us but keep attacking me for my views? I start fearing you and your obsession because I don`t know what is behind it. You are such a Darkman. Show me an example of my lack of logic. So far I think I was very logical. I presented certain material and expressed my personal opinions based on it. What`s illogical in it? ?? I am afraid that you have mistaken me with yourself. I can say it is you who is illogical. E.g., you demand from me to go to Darfur and when I answer that my main interest here is Jews, you say it is illogical? ? Kai, what`s wrong with you? Which two posts do you mean? My last post before yours was to Pieter about the photograph of policemen. My last but one post was to you and I explained in it how I I skipped your infamous Jewish Nazi thought police expression. Was it a personal attack? Aaaah, now I see. You hold a grudge against me for scolding you in a delicate manner for that nasty Jewish thought police! I knew it! You preferred to veil a cloud of silence over it but someone stood up and made a fuss. Now you are going ape because of your own mistake? Besides, accusing me of personal attacks sounds really ridiculous when suggested by you, who resorted to personal attacks yourself. What about my stupidity and later a pile of cow`s manure and other things? Kai, that`s really cheeky of you to impute personal attacks and use them yourself. In the end, if there was something in my posts to you what I considered funny admonition and what you treat as personal attack, it was never on its own but always accompanied by serious explanation or argument. If you tend to see only personal attack and ignore serious things, it means you are manipulative in your choices. It`s sad but I will live through it. I am almost already used to it! Who exactly are you talking to? Me or yourself? Yes, of course I am interested in Jewish Holocaust. Jews have always been my fascination. That`s is why I have been spending a lot of time here, wasting it on you although you don`t deserve it, but I do it because Jewish Nazi thought police is an utter racism and it really proves your indifference you advocate. Kai, you sound like a possessed preacher now. It is very disappointing. hahahahahahahahahaha PS. Kai, I beseech you again, give up these foolish arguments! They don`t suit an intelligent man! PS. OK. Next one, please!! hahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahha
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Nov 23, 2007 14:12:59 GMT -7
Pawi Didn't mean to enter this discussion, but you know me - can't keep my nose out of things. Good, we need more participants here. The more, the merrier. Les, the racial genocide in Jedwabne hadn`t been known to Poles until about 2001, I think Gross` book was published then. The revelation was a giant shock which immediately divided Polish society into different opinions. Some believed that Poles should acknowledge their guilt and apologise. Others thought the opposite, that Jews should apologise as first for their trecherous cooperation with bolsheviks, the enemies of Poland. Some tried to argue the numbers, that it wasn` t1600 but "only" 300 victims. Jedwabne has found its permanent place in Polish history books. Most writers agree that it took place and was committed by Poles with German supervision. What differs is the motives of murderers. Me? No, it must be Kai! hahahahahaha I only ask about your credentials! What are they so that you enter this thread so boisterously freely? It is for serious men, not such jesters as you!
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