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Post by bescheid on Dec 9, 2007 20:40:58 GMT -7
Pieter, hi. I read your informative post with true interest. I don't object equalizing Dutch and Polish attitude to the Jews. From what I read in your post the Pole's and the Dutch's attitude differed slightly only. In Poland, the lower the social layer, the more open the bloodthirsty or the moneythirsty opportunism took its horrendous toll. I objected ( still do) equalizng the attitude to the main evil doer, the hitlerian Germany. The data in your post seem to confirm my objections. Livia, Yes, we agree on these things. Unfortunately opportunism and greed was present in all occupied countries, and all European peoples had traitors. The differance was that the Dutch had more traitors than the Poles. The Poles had no Nazi's, but they had far right fascistoïd resistance movements, under whom the controversial Narodowe Sily Zbrojne (National Armed Forces). Pieter Pieter and Livia I do trust you will not be offended by a small addition to your very fine post exchange of this subject. Normally, I generally do not engage with the war time post for those times were very unpleasant for all. In as to the times, it was fought by most for many different reasons of that we do not understand for of those many years have passed. What I wish to add is this: In as much to traiters, for how, or for why are we to judge now? For each were an act of bravery in self, for acting into action, what these people conducted in reference to that of what they belived in with the ultimate sacrifice of their lives for a cause. In as much of the solders that fought and died of all sides. These people fought for what ever reasons to an end, that was of their indiviudal deaths, for what ever national insigna. As Pieter has brought forward, many of the Dutch served in the German military in as much to the various countries as some examples: Dänemark/Finnish/nederland/French/Romanian/Spanisch/Swedish/Swiss and British. All volenteers. By far the most was of the Nederland in many of the SS unit regements. A reason for many though. Upon their volenteering of service, many were mislead by SS officers of recruitment. They were promised for their service to be in units of troop entertainment/operating a canteen in various front and back line units. It was not untill they found them selves in training in Berlin, they were assigned to active combate units. Primarly that in the many Panzer brigades as {SS-Panzergrenadiers}. An SS Panzer unit, will take ground as a spear point, it will quickly advance to destroy all opposition. But, it requires the foot solders especially trained in Panzer tactics as a protective arm for the Panzer. And as normal course of combat, the Panzergrenadiers will suffer a high rate of casualities. With an SS Panzer unit, these casuality rate will be much more suvier. The SS Panzer units are/were not stationary unts of assignments in as much to the Wehrmacht {Heer}. For they were used as not just attact unit battaliens, but for as safe guard back up to any Wehrmacht combat unit{Panzer} found to be in an unattainable position with high probablity of extreme unacceptable losses. For this reason, was the priority of the best and most advanced models of Panzer and related equipment, alwas forwarded as first choice to the SS Panzer units. SS regiments always generally followed a numbered pattern such as exampled as: 5th SS Panzergrenader Division Wiking. Or in as of one of many of volenteers from the Neiderlandisch Nr 1 / {Norway} Norge 23/Dänemark {my adopted country during and after end of war}. {23} SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Division Nederland (niederlandische Nr. 1) consisted of Dutch volunteers and was formed 10 Feb 1945 when SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Brigade Nederland was upgraded. Nederland was given the number 23 when the Kama division was disbanded. It fought on the Eastern front seeing action on the Oder and south of Berlin where it was caught in the Halbe pocket, before surrendering to US forces at the end of the war. The Dutch soldiers were planned to be a part of the Nordland division but after protests from the Dutch nazi-party, Nationaal Socialistische Beweging (NSB), it was decided that they would form their own division. Lineage SS-Freiwilligen-Verband-Niederlande (July 1941 - Aug 1941) SS-Freiwilligen-Legion-Niederlande (Aug 1941 - Oct 1943) 4. SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Brigade Nederland (Oct 1943 - Oct 1944) SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Brigade Nederland (Oct 1944 - Feb 1945) 23. SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Division Nederland (niederlandische Nr. 1) (Feb 1945 - May 1945) Commanders SS-Brigadeführer Jürgen Wagner (10 Feb 1945 - 1 May 1945) Chief of Staff SS-Sturmbannführer Jürgen von Bock (10 Feb 1945 - 1 Mar 1945) SS-Sturmbannführer Reinhard Wörner (? 1945 - ? 1945) Quartermaster SS-Hauptsturmführer Fritz Beister (10 Feb 1945 - 1 Mar 1945) Area of operations Berlin (Mar 1945 - Mar 1945) Manpower strength Dec 1944 6.000 Order of battle SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 48 General Seyffard SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 49 de Ruyter SS-Artillerie-Regiment 23 SS-Nachrichten-Abteilung 23 SS-Panzerjäger-Abteilung 23 SS-Pionier-Bataillon 23 SS-Flak-Abteilung 23 SS-Feldersatz-Bataillon 23 SS-Nachschubtruppen 23 Insignia The "Legion Niederlande" cuff title was authorized for this unit, it was replaced by "Frw. Legion Niederlande", "Frw. Legion Nederland" and finally "Nederland". The "De Ruiter" cuff title was authorized for SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 49 de Ruyter. The "General Seyffard" cuff title was authorized for SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 48 General Seyffard. Reference material on this unit Perry Pierik - From Leningrad to Berlin: Dutch Volunteers in the German Waffen-SS Charles
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Post by kaima on Dec 10, 2007 2:37:01 GMT -7
Hello CHarles -
Yes, any army is happy to accept more cannon fodder, and foreign cannon fodder is better yet. The habit of expending neighbor's troops before your own is a timeless tradition going back before Alexander the Great.
One point worth adding is that all of the "traitors" and allies who fought on the side of nazi Germany were not nazis. Some were faschist, some monarchists, some good Christians fighting against the anti-god Soviets. Others were nationalists who simply saw a route to their national aim on the side of the powers that be - the Nazis. Anti Slavic and anti Jewish motives were just bonus reasons if one was so inclined.
Determination of who is the traitor is settled by who wins the war. If the Brits had won the American Revolution, our respected fore-fathers would have been the lowly traitors.
Today we have a much more civilized approach. We kill them all and let God/Allah sort them out.
Kai
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Post by pieter on Dec 10, 2007 3:07:25 GMT -7
Livia, Yes, we agree on these things. Unfortunately opportunism and greed was present in all occupied countries, and all European peoples had traitors. The differance was that the Dutch had more traitors than the Poles. The Poles had no Nazi's, but they had far right fascistoïd resistance movements, under whom the controversial Narodowe Sily Zbrojne (National Armed Forces). Pieter Pieter and Livia I do trust you will not be offended by a small addition to your very fine post exchange of this subject. Normally, I generally do not engage with the war time post for those times were very unpleasant for all. In as to the times, it was fought by most for many different reasons of that we do not understand for of those many years have passed. What I wish to add is this: In as much to traiters, for how, or for why are we to judge now? For each were an act of bravery in self, for acting into action, what these people conducted in reference to that of what they belived in with the ultimate sacrifice of their lives for a cause. In as much of the solders that fought and died of all sides. These people fought for what ever reasons to an end, that was of their indiviudal deaths, for what ever national insigna. As Pieter has brought forward, many of the Dutch served in the German military in as much to the various countries as some examples: Dänemark/Finnish/nederland/French/Romanian/Spanisch/Swedish/Swiss and British. All volenteers. By far the most was of the Nederland in many of the SS unit regements. A reason for many though. Upon their volenteering of service, many were mislead by SS officers of recruitment. They were promised for their service to be in units of troop entertainment/operating a canteen in various front and back line units. It was not untill they found them selves in training in Berlin, they were assigned to active combate units. Primarly that in the many Panzer brigades as {SS-Panzergrenadiers}. SS regiments always generally followed a numbered pattern such as exampled as: 5th SS Panzergrenader Division Wiking. Or in as of one of many of volenteers from the Neiderlandisch Nr 1 / {Norway} Norge 23/Dänemark {my adopted country during and after end of war}. {23} SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Division Nederland (niederlandische Nr. 1) consisted of Dutch volunteers and was formed 10 Feb 1945 when SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Brigade Nederland was upgraded. Nederland was given the number 23 when the Kama division was disbanded. It fought on the Eastern front seeing action on the Oder and south of Berlin where it was caught in the Halbe pocket, before surrendering to US forces at the end of the war. The Dutch soldiers were planned to be a part of the Nordland division but after protests from the Dutch nazi-party, Nationaal Socialistische Beweging (NSB), it was decided that they would form their own division. Lineage SS-Freiwilligen-Verband-Niederlande (July 1941 - Aug 1941) SS-Freiwilligen-Legion-Niederlande (Aug 1941 - Oct 1943) 4. SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Brigade Nederland (Oct 1943 - Oct 1944) SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Brigade Nederland (Oct 1944 - Feb 1945) 23. SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Division Nederland (niederlandische Nr. 1) (Feb 1945 - May 1945) Charles Charles, I am sorry, but I disagree with you totally, the Dutch SS was recruited from the Dutch WA (a sort of Dutch blackskirt force of the Dutch nazi party, which looked like the German SA). These blackskirts were a feared and loathed, and hated. Why? Because they terrorised jews in their neigbourhood in Amsterdam and took actively part in rounding up jews, together with the German SS, SD and Grune polizei. While many adventurers and idealists joined the SS as part of the fight against Communism, many of the later recruits joined or were conscripted for different reasons. For example, Dutchmen who joined the 34.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division Landstorm Nederland were granted exemption from forced labour and provided with food, pay and accommodation. Recruits who joined for such reasons rarely proved good soldiers, and several units composed of such volunteers were involved in atrocities. Dutch SS was also engaged in combat against the British and Polish forces in Arnhem, during Market Garden. The SS was labeled a criminal organisation at the Neurenberg war tribunal in 1946. A family member was killed by the Dutch SS in the east of the Netherlands in the city of Hengelo near the German border, when he tried to take over a factory which was filled with Dutch SS, fanatical men that fought to the bitter end. This accident occured on May the 5th of 1945. The man, a former Dutch huzaar officer, was the brother of my uncle. The Dutch SS were traitors, because they fought against the liberation of our Nation, killed English, American, Canadian, Polish and Dutch soldiers and officers, and believed in the giving up of the Netherlands for a Great Germanistic illusion, which in fact ment the Germanisation of the Netherlands. Because future plans of the Nazi's, was to make the Neterlands a German province filled with German settlers. The Dutch would have been sent to Poland and Ukraine as settlers, after the Slav population would have been eliminated. The Dutch SS was part of the Groß Germanische branch of the Dutch Nazi movement, while the National leader Anton Mussert, hoped for a Dutch republic in a Federation of Germanistic states. Pieter Links: Dutch collaborators ( traitors) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Mussert / pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Musserten.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelis_van_Geelkerken / pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelis_van_Geelkerkenen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meinoud_Rost_van_Tonningennl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afbeelding:Rost_van_Tonningen%2C_circa_1940.jpgde.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florentine_Rost_van_Tonningen (in German) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henk_Feldmeijer / pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Hendrik_FeldmeijerCollaborationist movements: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Movement_in_the_Netherlandspl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narodowo-Socjalistyczny_Ruch_Holenderskipl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationale_Jeugdstormpl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holenderskie_SSnl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afbeelding:WA_marcheert_1934.jpgpl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landstorm_Nederland
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Post by livia on Dec 10, 2007 4:11:29 GMT -7
Charles, I can only celebrate I can benefit from your input to this board (at last...). I understand you are a German living in USA and holding on to your original background. I respect it. Never in my life I had a chance to talk about these ancient times (ooops, will you excuse me with a German of that generation. I found your post informative. I trust you in turn will not be offended by the comment I'd like to add. The feelings behind my comment is not defiant or criss-cross, although yes you've got it right I am defiant sometimes. I hope not to grow out of it. Nor is there any bad feelings to you. You wrote //Normally, I generally do not engage with the war time post for those times were very unpleasant for all.// The war was not unpleasant for the Poles. The word >unpleasant< does not fit here. The war was a horror. I may agree the war was unpleasant for the Germans when the armies entered your land. But not earlier. Earlier they lived in peace and rising wealth. Profiting from what your soldiers stole from us, including our dead. German economy profiting from the slave work. I know for some Germans the horror begun when they had to taste the same medicine they served to us. And later when the guilty conscience awoke in some, it was unpleasant. But it doesn't justify the equalizing sentence I object.
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Post by livia on Dec 10, 2007 4:14:40 GMT -7
The Poles had no Nazi's, but they had far right fascistoïd resistance movements, under whom the controversial Narodowe Sily Zbrojne (National Armed Forces).
Pieter[/quote]
Pieter, NSZ faught both Germany and Soviet Russia. They were never collaborating. How can you even compare!
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Post by valpomike on Dec 10, 2007 8:31:13 GMT -7
Be careful, Charles is a big dog here, and can make it hard on you.
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Post by bescheid on Dec 10, 2007 8:47:27 GMT -7
Hello CHarles - Yes, any army is happy to accept more cannon fodder, and foreign cannon fodder is better yet. The habit of expending neighbor's troops before your own is a timeless tradition going back before Alexander the Great. One point worth adding is that all of the "traitors" and allies who fought on the side of nazi Germany were not nazis. Some were faschist, some monarchists, some good Christians fighting against the anti-god Soviets. Others were nationalists who simply saw a route to their national aim on the side of the powers that be - the Nazis. Anti Slavic and anti Jewish motives were just bonus reasons if one was so inclined. Determination of who is the traitor is settled by who wins the war. If the Brits had won the American Revolution, our respected fore-fathers would have been the lowly traitors. Today we have a much more civilized approach. We kill them all and let God/Allah sort them out. Kai Kai I only wish to add a comment...Whilst reading through your post and upon to the end, I was to laugh and with my morning coffee to splash. In your manner of humour and accuracy, you have summed up in few words, very exactly the process of a very complex, and broad administration designed exactly for the 2 fold purpose: The successful prosecution of a complex war, and successful elimination of a people. Charles
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Post by bescheid on Dec 10, 2007 8:52:27 GMT -7
Be careful, Charles is a big dog here, and can make it hard on you. Dear Michael My good heavens! What on this earth is this of? How possibly might you think of such?? Charles
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Post by bescheid on Dec 10, 2007 9:27:01 GMT -7
Pieter
I was at a cross road as rather to present this, for it was a great risk of considerable irritation to you and others. I took the risk for presentation of another side for information input. I take no great pleasure in presenting that war.
And yes, of course you are very correct with your input. For there must have been within each individual Dutch person, to base of their decision upon their actions, for this we will never gain that knowledge.
In your viewpoint of the constitution of traitor. Yes of course, I will agree with you, for you are correct. For in this case, it was to the many, that was given away by the few. And as so, this would constitute a betrayal.
But to the individual, must by virtue of personal values, takes upon them selves with such action as demonstrated, with certain knowledge of condemnation risk from their fellow Dutch. For a person to enlist into a foreign military would be in self, for the most part, an act of considerable courage. Rather this act was committed in desperation or following of an intrinsic belief would be only to that individual.
The fact standing though, is a very large many Dutch volunteered into the SS services.
It was not just always of men for arms. There were many woman auxiliaries enlistee. These ladies were primarily recruited out of the various national organizations of that time. Mainly from the vast ranks of the BDM {Bund Deutscher Mädel}[League of German Girls].
Charles
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Post by valpomike on Dec 10, 2007 9:39:52 GMT -7
Charles,
I just told you what you wanted to hear, and what you think, but could not be the case. Are there others out there who think like I do? Tell him, what you do think. Let him know that he is not any better than the rest of us, but he thinks he is.
Michael Dabrowski
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Post by bescheid on Dec 10, 2007 9:40:26 GMT -7
Charles, I can only celebrate I can benefit from your input to this board (at last...). I understand you are a German living in USA and holding on to your original background. I respect it. Never in my life I had a chance to talk about these ancient times (ooops, will you excuse me with a German of that generation. I found your post informative. I trust you in turn will not be offended by the comment I'd like to add. The feelings behind my comment is not defiant or criss-cross, although yes you've got it right I am defiant sometimes. I hope not to grow out of it. Nor is there any bad feelings to you. You wrote //Normally, I generally do not engage with the war time post for those times were very unpleasant for all.// The war was not unpleasant for the Poles. The word >unpleasant< does not fit here. The war was a horror. I may agree the war was unpleasant for the Germans when the armies entered your land. But not earlier. Earlier they lived in peace and rising wealth. Profiting from what your soldiers stole from us, including our dead. German economy profiting from the slave work. I know for some Germans the horror begun when they had to taste the same medicine they served to us. And later when the guilty conscience awoke in some, it was unpleasant. But it doesn't justify the equalizing sentence I object. Livia Of course I am not offended by your comments. For it is good to exchange our experiences. I am curius of your life in Poland as of it appears that you are of mine. I do enjoy such an exchange, for it enriches us both. Pawian has been very informative to life in Poland and effects of the war. He is honest and very well describes the war effects past and present. Yes, I was very fortunant with the events that controled my life. And for some reason, enjoy still the good fortunes of life. I have though, been very curious of every day life in war time Poland. For I know there is more then just the camps and holicaust. I have a great curiosity of the food and staples of life that were available. The type of paper required of purchase. What ever questions you may have, please, freely do ask, for this will then open the door for exchange. Thank you for your kind reply Charles
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Post by valpomike on Dec 10, 2007 13:10:07 GMT -7
Charles,
How could the German people kill so many Polish, without cause. Do the people of Germany feel bad for what there fathers and grandfathers did to the world. Do you care? I feel sorry that our people, the U.S.A. could not have done more to help with this. I am sure, that the U.S.A. will never let this happen again to the Polish. We the Americans did also kill many in war, but most of the time, after action was taken againts us first, and did so in battle. We did not line them up and just kill them, or send them to a gas chamber.
Michael Dabrowski
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Post by pieter on Dec 10, 2007 13:32:31 GMT -7
Pieter, NSZ faught both Germany and Soviet Russia. They were never collaborating. How can you even compare! Livia, I did not say that they were collaborating, I mention that they were far right, because they came from the Narodowa Demokracja ( ND or Endecja) a Polish right-wing nationalist political movement and strong advocate of Polonization policies. The NSZ fought against the nazi's, Sovjets and fellow Poles, both Polish and jewish, and from other minority groups, like Ukrainians and Belarussians. In that perspective it looked like the Urkainian Insergent Army UPA ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army ), although the NSZ was smaller than both UPA and AK. Second RepublicIn the newly independent Second Polish Republic (1918-1939), the ND was represented first by Zwi?zek Ludowo-Narodowy (the National Populist Union), and from 1928 by Stronnictwo Narodowe (the National Party). A chief characteristic of ND policies was their emphasis on Polonization of minorities: ND politicians such as Dmowski and Stanislaw Grabski contributed to the failure of Pilsudski's proposed Miedzymorze federation and of the alliance with the Ukrainian leader Symon Petlura, and to the alienation of Poland's ethnic minorities. After Pilsudski's May 1926 Coup d'État, the ND found itself in constant opposition to his Sanation regime. To fight the Sanation movement, the ND created Obóz Wielkiej Polski (the Great Poland Camp). Simultaneously the ND emphasized its anti-Jewish program, aimed at excluding Jews from Polish social and economic life and ultimately at pushing them to emigrate from Poland. Antisemitic actions and incidents – boycotts, demonstrations, even pogroms – organized or inspired by National Democrats mounted in the 1930s. The most notorious actions were taken by radical young NDs who formed the fascist-inspired, antisemitic National Radical Camp (ONR). World War II During World War II, the ND became part of a coalition which formed the Polish Government in Exile. It was closely linked with the Narodowe Sily Zbrojne (National Armed Forces), an underground organization which became a part of the Polish resistance movement. Due to ND anti-minority policies, ND armed organizations fought not only against Nazi Germany but against the Soviet Union and against organizations of Polish minorities. As a result, they had relatively little support and many enemies. War's endAfter the war, when Poland found itself controled by Polish communists and the Soviet Union, most remaining ND either emigrated to the West or continued an ultimately futile struggle against the Soviet occupation. Others joined the new regime – most notably, the ONR-Falanga leader Boleslaw Piasecki, who co-organized a regime-controlled Catholic movement. National Radical CampNational Radical Camp (Polish: Obóz Narodowo Radykalny, ONR) was a Polish nationalist political party, formed on May 14, 1934 mostly by the youth radicals who left the Narodowa Demokracja movement. The party was created on the insistence of former members of the Great Poland Camp ( Obóz Wielkiej Polski), most notably Jan Mosdorf, Tadeusz Gluzinski and Henryk Rossman. The organisation was mostly secret and followed the fascist ideology. It supported class solidarity, nationalisation of foreign and especially Jewish-owned companies and introduction of anti-semitic laws. It also supported defence of private property and a centralised state. The ONR was popular mostly among the students and other groups of urban youth. Because of its involvement in boycott of Jewish-owned companies[citation needed], as well as numerous attacks on left-wing worker demonstrations[citation needed], the ONR was delegalised after three months of existence, in July 1934. Several leaders were interned in Detention Camp Bereza Kartuska, where the organisation split into two separate factions: the ONR-Falanga ( Ruch Narodowo-Radykalny) led by Boleslaw Piasecki and the ONR-ABC ( Obóz Narodowo-Radykalny) formed around the A.B.C. journal and led by Henryk Rossman. While officially illegal[citation needed], both organizations were tolerated, especially after 1936. During World War II both organisations created underground resistance organizations: the earlier was transformed into the Zwizzek Jaszczurczy ( Lizard Union) and Szaniec (Rampart), while the latter created the Konfederacja Narodu (Confederation of the Nation). Today's PolandSince the fall of communism, when Poland became once again a democratically governed country, several political parties have sought to re-establish some ND traditions; their adherents prefer to call themselves the " national movement" (ruch narodowy). The latest only significant party that declares itself a successor to the ND is Liga Polskich Rodzin (the League of Polish Families), founded in 2001 by Roman Giertych, son of Maciej Giertych; at elections, it has garnered 8-16% of votes. The contemporary ONR was recreated in 1993 and works closely with the Narodowe Odrodzenie Polski (NOP)[citation needed]. On April 15, 2003 the Regional Court in Opole supported the mayor of Brzeg, stating that the pre-1939 ONR was an " extreme right organisation, used antisemitic rhetoric, openly opposed the government and was derived from fascist models". In 2005 the ONR had an estimated 300 members. The ONR (together with NOP) has been involved in homophobia, including violence against gay pride parades in Warsaw and Pozna? in 2005 and 2006, during which stones and bottles were thrown at parade participants. Pieter links: pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narodowa_Demokracjapl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Dmowski ( Roman Dmowski died in 1939, but he inspired National democrats, reactionairy Polish nationalists in the second world war) encyklopedia.interia.pl/haslo?hid=89280wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/zw_nsz.htmwww.nop.org.pl/www.polish-youth.org/konserwatyzm.pl/content/view/2305/111/
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Post by hollister on Dec 10, 2007 13:40:50 GMT -7
Michael, Charles is one of the most decent, honorable souls on this board and I am deeply offended by your insinuation. Not that you care one whit about my feelings or anyone that disagrees with you. Your lack of historical knowledge is overwhelming and troubling.
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Post by valpomike on Dec 10, 2007 13:53:15 GMT -7
Hollister,
I wanted his feedback, this was not posted to hurt anyone. I just asked a question, as I did to other German people who I talk with. I am open for any questions, and don't think anyone wants to hurt me by asking. What are you his attorney. Let him speak for himself, he is a big boy.
Michael Dabrowski
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