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Post by Jaga on Jun 14, 2007 19:45:44 GMT -7
I do not like this title but this is what others think about pres.Kaczynski and Poland. Ex president Kwasniewski stated that Poland should compromise. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Below is the article from Times On Line www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1935024.ecePoland is ready to let next week’s EU summit collapse rather than accept a new constitutional treaty that eats away at its voting power, President Kaczynski told The Times. The Polish leader said that he was not going to buckle under the diplomatic pressure that is piling up on Warsaw. “Poland has the right to protect its raison d’état, its interests,” he said. Europe could come to agreement, but “cooperation with and within Europe should not be dependent on agreement with Germany”. The summit seems set to be an epic duel, with Polish resistance to the constitutional treaty perhaps triggering moves towards a two-speed Europe and a fundamental shift in thinking about EU integration. Mr Kaczynski – who had quick-marched out of talks in Warsaw with President Sarkozy of France for the interview with The Times – said he could not countenance a result in which Poland emerged as one of the losers. ...
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Post by bescheid on Jun 15, 2007 5:58:33 GMT -7
Yes Jaga
This is and has been the historic reality of the mind set of Warsaw. It is not about about the EU or the constitution. It is about Germany. It is a reality of the Warsaw government to place into motion, any manner of removal of German power for what ever the cost.
It is this mind set, that will in time, place Poland in isolation position. Even though they are an equal member of the EU.
Mr. Nicolas Sarkozy within his short time at the helm of France, has began to quickly build up a considerable amount of credibility in his views and manner in the International community. For if this man was unable to bring about some resolution to this conflict of interest, the matter of the Constitution will be in jeopardy for any reality of passing in the foreseeable future.
The days of old scores to be settled, is long past out of date. A nation as of a family, must by requirement of international competition for resources and cross trade. Must stay in tune with the rest of the world. The results of other wise, is to take what is left over and make do. And perhaps this is what the currant government in Warsaw is about. For in this manner, it removes the stigma of risk {capitol gain and capital loss}.
Charles
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zooba
Full Pole
Posts: 369
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Post by zooba on Jun 15, 2007 7:16:18 GMT -7
Charles, it saddens me but I have to agree with your opinion. I'm not sure about the European constitution but looking at it only from Polish perspective and not seeing EU as a whole does not help in any issues. You cannot be in a family and treat it with lots of suspicion and fear - finally it will not stand together.
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Post by Jaga on Jun 15, 2007 8:18:52 GMT -7
Zooba,
Polish politicians need to go a long way to learn to compromise. It is sad....
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Post by ludikundera on Jun 15, 2007 10:53:13 GMT -7
Read the comments to that article.
I'm inclined to agree.
Why should Poland settle for less voting power?
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Post by Jaga on Jun 15, 2007 12:53:13 GMT -7
Why should Poland settle for less voting power? Becuase it is unjust to other countries. We need to compromise and see somebody else point of view.
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Post by ludikundera on Jun 15, 2007 22:18:59 GMT -7
Why should Poland settle for less voting power? Becuase it is unjust to other countries. We need to compromise and see somebody else point of view. Unless we face some kind of consequences that outweigh not giving away our current voting strength, I don't agree. The idea that the EU is a "family" seems like an idea convenient only to the EU's father figure(s). In the past, the EU and its earlier incarnations, for instance, quite often placated France with "unjust" powers and perks simply because France was a powerful member. And who can count the number of times France vetoed British entry into various European unions! What a farce. I say we should be as "unjust" as we can possibly be to get the most for ourselves, in order to counteract the "unjust" actions of countries that are more powerful than we are. Sucks to be on the bottom; glad we're at least in the middle. As the big fish eat us up, let's at least feast on the little ones.
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Post by Jaga on Jun 16, 2007 8:51:35 GMT -7
There is a chance that Poland will compromise:
Poland hints it might drop EU veto threat
Poland hinted on Friday it could drop its threat to veto talks on a new European Union treaty while Germany piled on more pressure for agreement at next week's summit. Poland's eurosceptic ruling Kaczynski twins have threatened to block progress on the charter for reforming EU institutions at a June 21-22 summit if their demands for re-weighting the EU voting system are not taken into account.
Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski told Polish daily Dziennik he was more optimistic of an agreement after the visit of conservative French President Nicolas Sarkozy on Thursday.
"I believe we can say some light has appeared. But it is too early to say anything definitive or give any details," said the nationalist prime minister who generally takes an even harder line on Europe than his brother, President Lech Kaczynski.
The prime minister's foreign policy adviser told Rzeczpospolita daily that Sarkozy had made a new proposal which was being analysed by the Polish side, but gave no details.
Sarkozy's visit was part of a joint diplomatic offensive to convince Poland not to obstruct the charter.
Warsaw believes the voting rules contained in the treaty give too much power to big countries -- Germany in particular. Poland's demands are backed only by the Czech Republic.
The Polish president will travel to Berlin at the weekend to meet the German Chancellor and EU presidency holder, Angela Merkel.
In an apparent warning to Poland and others wanting changes to the charter, Merkel said there were limits to what any state could demand. Britain wants no reference to the Charter of Fundamental Rights, for instance.
"There are many countries that have problems and the bigger the problems of some, the bigger those of others become because all have their red lines," Merkel said after meeting Spanish Prime Minister Jose Luis Zapatero in Berlin.
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Post by leslie on Jun 16, 2007 11:34:08 GMT -7
The meeting on June 21-22 promises to be a most interesting meeting, and I certainly wouldn't place a bet on any of the outcomes. It is interesting that Poland and only one other member state have made opposing views vocally. A lot of people are beginning to wonder whether Poland should indeed have joined the EU - perhaps it could have formed a United Eastern Europe?! It is also interesting that Britain who was a late entrant, albeit powerful, to the EU is being remarkably quiet, only making comments about the Human Rights EU legislation.
Very interesting
Leslie
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Post by pieter on Jun 16, 2007 14:29:21 GMT -7
Dear people,
I see something in all of your replies and found reading your contributions especially those of Jaga (she started the discussion and reacted very well on the other replies), and those of Charles and Zooba interesting. As you all know I am very concerned with Europe as a Continental European which has to deal with European matters, European influence and changing times, systems and structures. I can see both the Euroscepsis or critical attitude of the Poles towards the European Union under German chairmanship, and the rational (and probably emotional) reaction of Charles, because the resistance of Poland against German power in Europe is directed against his former Heimat. It is not an attempt to comfort you, but it is also a reality that a lot of Poles are calculating, rational, pragmatic people, who want to be part of Europe, have good political and diplomatic ties with Germany and ofcourse trade relations, because Poland and Germany ofcourse have a lot of financial and economical ties with eachother as neigbouring countries with differant kind of economies. I don't think the Polish resistance is only targeted against Germany, but against other WEstern-European countries two who have a fearful or defensive policy towards Poland, because they fear mass Polish immigration, while they are facing huge problems with their present Multi-cultural migrant absorbing societies.
Jaga is right in her standpoint that Poland should have a more dilplomatic stance, in which it has to give and take in negociations, make compromises in some fields and stand firm on other fields. Poland must realise that it is an adult European memberstate, and that it has rights but also obligations as a family member of the European family of nations. The country should negociate about the voting system. If it would find a majority coalition of memberstates (of middle big and small countries) that would reject the voting system (with the assistance of for instance Great-Brittain), it would have a point. When Poland is the only state and would use it's veto it would isolate itself in Europe.
Europe is a subject I have to study on, because I was to bussy with the Dutch and neigbouring countries (Belgium, Germany) and the Middle east (Lebanon, Palestine) lately.
Ludikundera and leslie have also made their positions on this issue clear!
Pieter
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Jun 16, 2007 15:28:01 GMT -7
This is and has been the historic reality of the mind set of Warsaw. It is not about about the EU or the constitution. It is about Germany. It is a reality of the Warsaw government to place into motion, any manner of removal of German power for what ever the cost. I also read such commentaries and I tend to believe it all might be true. Are Polish politicians trying to preserve the voting power of Poland? No, they rather try to diminish the voting power of Germany. Why? Kaczynski brothers are bearing a serious grudge against Germans for two main reasons: 1. The joint Russo-German venture of the construction of gas pipeline across the Baltic. It is seen as a threat to Polish interests. 2. The refusal of the German government to pass law nullifying all German claims to Polish territory which belonged to Germany before WW2. Add to this the deep distrust that Kaczynski brothers cherish towards European Union and we get what we get.
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Post by ludikundera on Jun 16, 2007 17:35:28 GMT -7
www.poland.pl/news/article,Scandal_in_EU_negotiations_over_vodka,id,280366.htm " Polish MEPs are shocked by the incident surrounding a debate in the European Parliament on the definition of vodka.A representative of the German government sent a letter to 24 countries asking for their support for redefining vodka so that it stands also for products made of different ingredients than the traditional vodka. However, the German letter was not sent either to the Polish or the Lithuanian delegations. Polish MEP Bogusław Sonik issued a statement, in which he expressed his outrage at the way in which Germans were trying to do business behind the back of some EU countries. He stressed, that to exclude Poland and Lithuania even in a single matter is a sign of discrimination. Polish MEP demanded an immediate reaction from Chancellor Angela Merkel and an investigation of apparent connections between German officials who issued the controversial letter and groups lobbying for a wider definition of vodka." The Germans like us, they really like us... In the words of Seinfeld's immortal soup Nazi: Germany, less votes for you!Of course, stories like these, about decisions which would have rather substantial economic effects, aren't really reported in European, international media. It's only when Poland acts against Germany (and not Germany against Poland) that talk of "wrecking" makes the newspapers. So, besides grudges, we also have our vodka argument.
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Post by bescheid on Jun 16, 2007 18:18:38 GMT -7
This is and has been the historic reality of the mind set of Warsaw. It is not about about the EU or the constitution. It is about Germany. It is a reality of the Warsaw government to place into motion, any manner of removal of German power for what ever the cost. I also read such commentaries and I tend to believe it all might be true. Are Polish politicians trying to preserve the voting power of Poland? No, they rather try to diminish the voting power of Germany. Why? Kaczynski brothers are bearing a serious grudge against Germans for two main reasons: 1. The joint Russo-German venture of the construction of gas pipeline across the Baltic. It is seen as a threat to Polish interests. 2. The refusal of the German government to pass law nullifying all German claims to Polish territory which belonged to Germany before WW2. Add to this the deep distrust that Kaczynski brothers cherish towards European Union and we get what we get. Pawian It is good to see a clear thinker on this issue. For the reasons you have provided are very much in line with the situation. There are also that of some personal issues the Kaczynski twins have dating the war years. There is a game being played out here between Lech Kaczynski and Angele Merkel. It is a one-up-manship. Kaczynski {Lech} has placed him self personally with his earlier threat to veto on the 11th hour, the constitution vote. As with these actions, he would be placing his nation, of that he represents, at risk of isolation with only the Czech Republic as his reliable table mate. If this was to actually take place with his decision of a negative vote. Then it is possible, Poland will be by passed and in so, place Poland as to a side line. He {Kaczynski} knows this as an obvious risk. If you know the game of poker, then his tactic is clear. He is bluffing to the end with out a winning hand. At the last minute, to save face, he will provide the announcement just prior to the vote, that he will save the constitution and vote yes... In this action, he will attempt to place Poland as the saver of the constitution to keep the Laural's off the head of Angela Merkel. Am I wrong on this? I do not think so. In as much to pipe situation. The plans as provided to the Polish government, was an extension was engineered into the pipe for access. The requirement is construction of the terminal. This was very clearly lay ed out long ago. Charles Charles
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Post by bescheid on Jun 16, 2007 18:48:49 GMT -7
www.poland.pl/news/article,Scandal_in_EU_negotiations_over_vodka,id,280366.htm " Polish MEPs are shocked by the incident surrounding a debate in the European Parliament on the definition of vodka.A representative of the German government sent a letter to 24 countries asking for their support for redefining vodka so that it stands also for products made of different ingredients than the traditional vodka. However, the German letter was not sent either to the Polish or the Lithuanian delegations. Polish MEP Bogusław Sonik issued a statement, in which he expressed his outrage at the way in which Germans were trying to do business behind the back of some EU countries. He stressed, that to exclude Poland and Lithuania even in a single matter is a sign of discrimination. Polish MEP demanded an immediate reaction from Chancellor Angela Merkel and an investigation of apparent connections between German officials who issued the controversial letter and groups lobbying for a wider definition of vodka." The Germans like us, they really like us... In the words of Seinfeld's immortal soup Nazi: Germany, less votes for you!Of course, stories like these, about decisions which would have rather substantial economic effects, aren't really reported in European, international media. It's only when Poland acts against Germany (and not Germany against Poland) that talk of "wrecking" makes the newspapers. So, besides grudges, we also have our vodka argument. Mr. Ludikundera I see where this is heading, and that is ok. In the world of commerce, where is the requirement of what products are sold on which market? And for that matter, to who? It is a free market, that is what the EU is about. For these reasons it was very much encouraged for Poland to enter into the EU as a leveling field of opportunity, for to better market access. No restrictions were in-placed for which market or what market would be required for Poland to access or be of restricted from. It is a free market for all. It would so seem this is what we would name as {sour grapes} Besides, I like Vodka, all Vodka rather it is from potatoes, dead fish, or turnips or what ever. {Was dem einenrecht ist, ist dem anderen billig} [What is right for one, is fair for the other] or would you agree? This is just a begin for Polish export to the German market. For there is at present, 26 new generation coal fired generation units on the design table. These will require un-interruptible supplies of Polish coal for fuel. Prior to start up, there is by necessity, a required stock pile for a run up of 30 days with out fuel delivery, this for reasons of unavoidable mine delivery delays {unforeseeable strikes, weather, mine problems and what ever}. The world of business and commerce proceeds rather we worry about vodka or which market it is to be retailed from. And yes, believe it or not, you are well liked by Germany and we will care for you. Charles
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Post by ludikundera on Jun 16, 2007 20:29:15 GMT -7
The EU is a free market? Here are some snippets from Wikipedia's page on the EU's Common Agricultural Policy: " The Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) is a system of European Union agricultural subsidies and programmes. It represents about 44% of the EU's budget (€55 billion scheduled spending for 2007 [1]). These subsidies work by guaranteeing a minimum price to producers and by direct payment of a subsidy for crops planted." Notice especially the last sentence: since when does a free market guarantee minimum prices... Next, some snippets from the Wiki article about the EU's Stability and Growth Pact: " Some remark that it has been applied inconsistently, after the Council of Ministers failed to apply sanctions against France and Germany, despite punitive proceedings being started when dealing with Portugal (2002) and Greece (2005), though fines were never applied. In 2002 the European Commission President (1999-2004)[5] Romano Prodi described it as "stupid"[6], but was still required by the Treaty to seek to apply its provisions.
The pact has proved not to be enforceable against big countries such as France and Germany, which, ironically, was the biggest promoter of it when it was created. These countries have run "excessive" deficits under the pact definition for some years. The reasons that larger countries have not been punished include their influence and large number of votes on the Council of Ministers, which must approve sanctions; their greater resistance to "naming and shaming" tactics, since their electorates tend to be less concerned by their perceptions in the European Community; their comparatively weak commitment to the Euro, as compared to smaller states; the relatively greater role of government spending in their larger and more enclosed economies.
To external observers of the pact in countries where there is a movement to join the eurozone, such as in the UK, Denmark, and Sweden, the failure of the pact to enforce its provisions on France and Germany is seen as a reason against joining the eurozone. This is cited as another major example of Franco-German bullying of other member states when it suits them." Redefining the definition of "vodka" (so that it can be made from things other than potato or grain and still called "vodka" without distinction) will hurt Polish vodka sales. This is, in itself, not bad, if, as you say, the EU market is free (anyone can make anything and sell to anyone). However, the EU market is not free. Even the EU alcohol market is not free. Can Poles make brandy and call it "cognac"? PS: Being "cared for" by Germany is exactly what Poland is afraid of; we've only just stopped being "cared for" by the Soviet Union.
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