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Post by justjohn on Jun 21, 2007 12:34:57 GMT -7
We'd have more power in EU if Germans hadn't 'reduced our population' in World War II, says Polish PM 20.06.07 The Polish PM has stunned European leaders today with an astonishing attack on Germany for starting the Second World War. In a spectacularly undiplomatic outburst, he said his country was losing out in today's European Union as a direct result of the millions of deaths that followed its invasion by Germany in 1939. "We are only demanding one thing - that we get back what was taken from us," said Jaroslaw Kaczynski at the opening of the EU summit in Brussels, chaired by German chancellor Angela Merkel. "If Poland had not had to live through the years of 1939-45, Poland would be today looking at the demographics of a country of 66 million." The issue of population is at the heart of a heated row over voting rights that could wreck Tony Blair's last EU summit. A proposed new system of sharing out votes rewards countries such as Germany with the biggest numbers - and Poland is angrily demanding more. Poland's population is 38 million - implying that Mr Kaczynski blames the Germans for the loss of 28 million people. Mr Kaczynski and his twin brother Lech, Poland's president, are said to be Second World War obsessives, with an encyclopaedic knowledge of their country's sufferings under occupation. The identical twins, whose father fought in the 1944 Warsaw uprising, have become infamous for their unrestrained comments and dislike of EU integration. Luxembourg's premier, Jean-Claude Juncker, said they should stop living in the past. "You have to jump into the present," he told FT Deutschland. "You will not be happy in the long run if you are always looking in the rear-view mirror."
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Jun 21, 2007 14:41:21 GMT -7
The arguments they use are silly. Nobody knows what the population of Poland would be if there hadn`t been WW2.
Let alone victims. But what about Eastern nations which lived in territories belonging to Poland before WW2 and after it were moved to the Soviet Union? Are they counted too?
If Kaczynski Brothers want to have a serious debate and convince Euromemebrs to their cause, they should have come up with better ideas than that.
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Post by ludikundera on Jun 21, 2007 14:54:06 GMT -7
"Let's forget history," says the country that makes it illegal to deny the Holocaust, and wants to extend that illegality throughout the European Union. "Let's let the past be the past," proclaims the country that has paid out millions of dollars in Holocaust restitution. As for Mr. Jancker, maybe he would also like to forget that his father was in the Wehrmacht. Bad memories, bad memories. Best to sweep them away under the rug of Eastern Europe, forget them, let them be, tra-la-la-la-lah. Oh, and there are also the joyous contradictions. Here's a snippet from a speech by German chancellor Angela Merkel celebrating 50 years of the signing of the Treaties of Rome: " We, the citizens of Europe, have united for the better. For we know, Europe is our common future.
That was a dream for many generations. Our history reminds us that we must protect this for the good of future generations.
And so I hope that the citizens of Europe will say in 50 years' time:
Back then in Berlin, the united Europe set the right course." (http://www.eu2007.de/en/News/Speeches_Interviews/March/0325BKBerliner.html) And, here I was, under the distinct impression that things which happened half a century ago were no longer relevant, best to be left in the past. However, if one hopes that in 50 years the citizens of Europe should be able to "look back", then the same courtesy should be afforded now. And when I look back 50 years, I see lots of Poles dying. I think Kaczynski's statement is rather stupid, incorrect and unnecessary; but the way in which it's being countered is both silly and dangerous. History should not be forgotten. Living in the present should take into account the past for the good of the future. Anything else is pure manipulation.
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Post by leslie on Jun 21, 2007 15:37:17 GMT -7
Luikundera Remember that history is usually written so nobody forgets what happened in the past, but history is always written from the point of view of the victor! Even if the was that for only a certain length of time, although certain things happened during that time. Always remember history and try to read a true account into it - even the Bible is but a history book - then look at the world today and think how we can make the world en courant a better place. Brits could always remember, from the historical accounts, what happened post-1066 and the evil doings of the Normans - but how much good would that do. Ordinary Brits are not really in favour of belonging to the EU, but I get the feeling that certain people in Poland regret joining, in spite of all the EU money is being poured into Poland, even more so than the Brits. I think this week will reveal a lot. Leslie
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Post by bescheid on Jun 21, 2007 16:11:58 GMT -7
Dear Mr. Ludikundera
Thank you for your comments and speaking of your thoughts, for to speak of ones mind and heart, is truth.
It is to topics of this nature that bring out the truth of a persons feelings and intrinsic natural truth.
In the short time of this month, it has brought forward much animosity and hatred of German people. It is ok for people to hate, but, not good to hold back and lie with a false face.
I am of a cruel people, I know this. For we are builders and creators. We make things happen, but in this, we forget that others do not do the same. And for this, we are disappointed for we expect too much of others. As this is best exampled with the currant conflict of interest between that of Germany and Poland.
It is best not to over expect, for then, disappointment is absent.
Charles
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Post by leslie on Jun 21, 2007 17:31:31 GMT -7
Sorry Ludikundera - when I was typing your name in my last post to you, I think my fingers must have run away from my brain!! Leslie
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Post by ludikundera on Jun 21, 2007 20:33:06 GMT -7
I don't hate Germans.
I think we both actually dislike the same thing, bescheid: dishonesty. And what I see happening a lot in Euro-politics is dishonesty: arguments for sometimes-valid causes spoken in lies and doublespeak. What bugs me is when discussion about economics and political power are veiled with vague words like "family" and "justice" that try to persuade through stirred emotions and connotation rather than reason.
The way this works is kind of like this:
"Because the EU is a family, Poland should do what's best for its relatives."
This is not a difficult statement to agree with; but, it's a sneaky one. It's actually making two arguments at once, while pretending to make only one. And, if we assume the validity of the first, the hidden, argument (that the EU is a family), then the second argument follows easily enough.
It's like pointing out someone in the street and yelling, "he stole my purse, someone stop him!" The result is that you'll soon get a mob of people chasing the poor fellow down because they've assumed the that the man is guilty, that he has stolen a purse. If this assumption is true, their efforts can be commendable. However, if this assumption is untrue (and seldom does anyone who calls the EU a "family" make an explanation), then the mob reaction is wrong. Although the man's guilt is implicit in the statement doesn't make it true. And we'd all do well to question these kinds of implicit arguments once in a while, either to strengthen them if they're valid or strike them down if they're not.
"Because the Earth is flat, we should be wary of falling off the edge."
Back to the German issue:
Although I don't argue the German position on this forum very often, I actually argue it rather more frequently offline. Much like Americans do in their various endeavors, Germany (along with one or two other countries) pays for the development of most countries in the EU, and especially the poorer, newer additions. Based on the amount of money it contributes, Germany should have much more to say in EU dealings than Poland or Estonia or Portugal. That's an argument I understand, and one that I've made myself many times. However, that's not the argument that Euro politicians are currently putting forward. Instead, they're preaching idioms and "values". And that's what I object to. Give me figures and cold reason, and even if I'd want to argue against, say, increased German influence in the EU, I'd be hard-pressed to do a good job.
Which is not to say that Poland doesn't do the same type of thing. Polish politicians often do! But, in the case of two parties each doing the same wrong, I'm inclined to take the side of the weaker party. In this case, with its lesser wealth and lesser international clout, the weaker party is Poland. As that old newspaper saying goes, "comfort the afflicted, and afflict the comforted."
I'd also like to echo and extend something that Pawian said: if the EU wants to move forward, there needs to be a wholesale shift toward serious debate and actual ideas, supported by facts and linked by argument. Bloated, cloudy talk about sweet nothings and half-baked, unbacked theories about historical what-if scenarios just won't do.
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Post by kaima on Jun 21, 2007 23:13:09 GMT -7
***Based on the amount of money it contributes, Germany should have much more to say in EU dealings than Poland or Estonia or Portugal. That's an argument I understand, and one that I've made myself many times.*** Following the logic example you presented earlier, then you are here asking us to accept that 'he who contributes the most financially should have the greatest vote'. Ah, so you go along with the Dollar rules over alles? I thought that is what got us in this materialistic and moral mess that we are in today. I prefer the complicated and less effective way the US chose 200+ years ago, of having large and smalls states represented in two houses, one proportioned by population, the other on an equal footing, state to state. Perhaps today we should add a third house, one based on who provides the most for the economy. I do believe the Europeans have to work on their system of representation. Oh, and I have nothing against the Krauts. Kai
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Post by bescheid on Jun 22, 2007 7:14:30 GMT -7
Thank you Ludikundera and Kai, for your very thoughtful replies. Both of you hold some very quality view points befitting the Diplomatic Services. The American idea of two houses of represent ion to cover the states of wealth and one to represent population makes good sense. And it is no more wasteful then some practices in the German Government that are asinine with waste. What has been accomplished through this process of turmoil between the governments that of {Warsaw and Berlin} has been to bring out into the open, a very long standing aggravation between our two countries. It is as of water, it will flow down from the top and effect all at the bottom. How ever the vote Will go, Bundeskanzlerin Angela Merkel is up to her arm pits in trouble on the home front. She is considered ineffective in this situation with the Warsaw leadership with not effectively dealing with two opposite manners of negotiation. The Kaczynkis are masters of Political Marketing with the style of confrontation. Whilst the style of negotiation used by Angela Merkel is the Democratic use of negotiation. The other home complaint, is she not only gives away the piggy bank, she throws in the money with it to the Polish Government. Some of these monies were prepared for development funds to be used in Eastern Germany, now it is down the toilet. The following url is an excellent write up by Spiegel that is rather lengthy, but, for the most part, accurate. tinyurl.com/2fx2wnThe good news is, if the vote is negative, then that should be ok. For it will be as it has been, a treaty, and as such,much more simple to amend. Charles
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Post by kaima on Jun 22, 2007 8:37:39 GMT -7
***The following url is an excellent write up by Spiegel that is rather lengthy, but, for the most part, accurate. tinyurl.com/2fx2wn*** Thanks for the link, CHarles. I was trying to post the graph from the article late last night, but could not get it to work. Let's try again: Kai PS For others to know, you & I know each other now for years, and I ahve a long history with Germans, so I feel free to kid them (thus you too). Therefore my earlier comment about Germans. In reality I know mostly sweet Krauts, and just a few sour Krauts.
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Post by bescheid on Jun 22, 2007 9:06:51 GMT -7
Kai Nice graph! It is simple, easy to understand and excellent readable. I like it And thank you for the addition you added to your post. I think perhaps I have been a bit over sensitive here of late, sorry. Charles
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Jun 22, 2007 13:22:09 GMT -7
Following the news from Brussels resembles watching an exciting game. Kaczynski and his men put forward their propositions and threaten with a veto. Polish journalists manage to gather insider information about serious quarrels between Polish Foreign Minister Mrs Fotyga and a Polish team of professional negotiators, so called Sherps. The Sherps are said to have been put aside and she is taking over the negotiations.
The recent news: Chancellor Merkel proposed to organize the Conference without Poland. According to European Union regulations, it is a legal move. Merkel hopes she will gain more time to convince the twins to agree to German propositions.
I think it would be interesting to read comments by Polish readers of the news service. I translated them one by one, without any selection:
1. Congratulations for the Polish delegation. They must be real ignoramuses to end up like that.
2. Did anybody mention democracy in the Union? This meeting is a new Yalta conference. We must leave this kolchoz because we might fall into slavery for many years.
3. I hate Germans. I hate Germans!
4. Radium, polonium? Aren`t they radioactive? I think the brains of the Polish delegation have been burnt out...
5. Bravo Merkel! It`s high time to finish off this Polish idiocy!
6. Kaczynski will lead Poland to a place where united Europe will be a distant continent.
7. Bravo Germans! Europe without Duckmen!
8. We don`t object to 60 milliard aid but we are unable to reach a compromise. It is a typical Polish megalomania, troublemaking and waving a sword. Polish vices in pure form.
9. Europe, I apologise.
10. Merkel is hitting hard. But it is a bluff to break us. We must be persistent.
11. Kaczynski, come back and save us the shame.
12. Germans have been anti-Polish for centuries. When will they stop making trouble?
13. Kaczynski is a lousy negotiator.
14. And this is the ay to deal with Kaczynskis! Down with the twins!
15. Hahahahahaha we are not afraid!
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Jun 22, 2007 13:45:43 GMT -7
More translations:
16. Bravo Kaczynski brothers! Let`s show what a superpower we are in Europe!
17. How lucky we are to have Kaczynski brothers! Without them we would have already become a rag to clean European toilets!
18. For the time being Kaczynskis are the best Polish politicians of the 21 century. They represent Poland with dignity, set out strict conditions for the West, they are nobody`s servants.
19. I support Kaczynski brothers. At last we have honest people at the helm.
20. This is a scandal, they should be dismissed, they destroy everything, Russia is enjoying the situation.
21. I feel so embarrassed that we have a president and prime minister who cannot speak Polish properly, let alone a foreign language. I am ashamed that they have such complexes.
22. Now I am wondering how our government is going to solve the problem of energetic security or Russian embargo on our meat.
23. The West is getting angry, it means they wanted to take us for a ride...
24. Either Poland gets the same voices as Germany or we leave the Union and we shall go on strike in your companies and shall boycott your goods.
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Jun 22, 2007 13:57:20 GMT -7
Ordinary Brits are not really in favour of belonging to the EU, but I get the feeling that certain people in Poland regret joining, in spite of all the EU money is being poured into Poland, even more so than the Brits. I think this week will reveal a lot. Leslie The cold cruel statistics report that 85% (eighty five) of Poles support the Union. It is probably the highest result in all European countries. Kaczynski brothers strongly believe they have the right to speak on behalf of these people. In two years time people, be means of voting, will deprive Kaczynskis of their power which they abuse and misuse. The truth is they are best at destroying, they are Great Destructors, and they are substantially unable to build anything.
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Jun 22, 2007 13:59:07 GMT -7
Sorry Ludikundera - when I was typing your name in my last post to you, I think my fingers must have run away from my brain!! Leslie Not at all! Your fingers seem to always slip while typing our names. E.g., you frequently address me as Pawi. hahahahaahahhahahahaha
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