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Post by Jaga on Jul 28, 2007 8:59:22 GMT -7
I thought this was quite interesting: CULTURE Germany and Poland in dispute over looted cultural assets Germany and Poland have been in discussions since 1992 about the mutual handover of numerous cultural assets that were either confiscated or destroyed during World War II. Former Polish Foreign Minister Wladyslaw Bartoszewski says he is outraged about yesterday's article in the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung under the headline, "The last German prisoners of war": "That is a particularly irritating matter. I myself have been dealing with it. If the talks fell apart, it wasn't Poland's fault. The blame can be placed on Germany's former Red-Green coalition government. In fact, we rescued a lot of German cultural assets from being destroyed or stolen by the Red Army. And then for many years we worked on restoration, and preserved documents and books. This article is even worse when you realize that the Germans themselves have never returned the cultural assets they stole from Poland." europe.courrierinternational.com/eurotopics/article.asp?langue=uk&publication=27/07/2007&cat=CULTURE&pi=0
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Post by Jaga on Aug 8, 2007 22:04:15 GMT -7
Poland rejects call to return German artworks WARSAW: Poland has rejected calls for it to return a collection of German cultural treasures - including original manuscripts by Goethe, Beethoven, Mozart and Bach - held in Polish archives since World War II, calling such demands "entirely groundless." In a statement Tuesday, the Polish Foreign Ministry said "all artworks, library and archive materials and all other objects of German origin that found themselves on Polish territory in connection with World War II were taken over by the Polish state on the basis of the appropriate legal acts." The ministry added that the judgment was "final" and said any claims were "entirely groundless and could not be taken into consideration." Any mention of German claims from World War II is a sore point in Poland, which was invaded by Nazi Germany in 1939 and subjected to a brutal five-year occupation in which six million Polish citizens died. Last week, the leading German daily Frankfurter Allegemeine Zeitung criticized Poland for not returning treasures from the so-called Prussian State Library, a collection of priceless German books and manuscripts, calling them "the last German prisoners of war." But German claims on cultural items offend Poles, who remember how Nazis plundered Polish artworks, burned libraries and archives and systematically razed Warsaw, dynamiting cultural landmarks, including churches and royal palaces. "Polish public opinion still remembers the artworks carted away, the burned libraries and archives, whose loss was never made up for," the Foreign Ministry statement said. ... The Nazis transferred the Prussian collection from Berlin to 29 places across the Third Reich to protect it from Allied bombing. About 500 wooden boxes with thousands of manuscripts and documents were hidden at the Ksiaz Castle in the Sudety mountains, and later moved to a convent further south in what was then Germany. But they wound up on Polish territory when the border was shifted west after the war. The Polish authorities moved the collection to the Jagiellonian University Library in Krakow for safekeeping. A small part of the collection was returned to Germany in 1977, when the leader of Communist Poland, Edward Gierek, gave the East German Communist leader, Erich Honecker, seven musical items. They included Mozart's handwritten sheet music to the opera "The Magic Flute" and part of Beethoven's manuscript of his Ninth Symphony, said the director of the Jagiellonian Library, Zdzislaw Pietrzyk. www.iht.com/articles/2007/08/08/europe/poland.php
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Post by Jaga on Aug 8, 2007 22:05:26 GMT -7
By the way, my father was a PhD advisor of Dr. Zdzislaw Pietrzyk, the current director of Jagiellonian University, mentioned at the end of the article
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Post by ludikundera on Aug 9, 2007 3:09:48 GMT -7
Attack a country, conquer a country, murder its people, destroy its cities... and then ask for looted assets? Err, can we ask for Warsaw back?
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Post by Jaga on Aug 9, 2007 14:14:26 GMT -7
Attack a country, conquer a country, murder its people, destroy its cities... and then ask for looted assets? Err, can we ask for Warsaw back? I agree with you on that...
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Aug 9, 2007 17:20:27 GMT -7
German activity in Warsaw after the Rising ruined the city
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Post by Jaga on Aug 9, 2007 21:01:44 GMT -7
Jerzy,
is it a fragment of a real book? Is it yours?
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Post by ludikundera on Aug 10, 2007 10:57:45 GMT -7
There was a page from a comic book here before, no?
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Aug 10, 2007 13:47:52 GMT -7
There was a page from a comic book here before, no? It was a comic story called something like Robinsons of the Ruins. About people who didn`t leave Warsaw when Nazis issued such an order but stayed and hid in ruins for 5 months. They witnessed the planned destruction of the city by special German units: Brandkommandos. I decided it was too light and replaced with a real documentary. As for giving anything back, I could support it on condition that the losses of Polish culture are covered by Germans. Germans must make up for what they stole, plundered, burnt and destroyed in Poland during WW2. Why not? I don`t need German composers` manuscripts, their place is in Berlin, not Krakow. I want back the picture by Rafael, stolen from Krakow`s museum by Hans Frank in 1945. If it is impossible to recover the picture, it can be another of the same value. Rafael Santi, the Portrait of a Young Man, never found.
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Post by Jaga on Aug 16, 2007 7:57:16 GMT -7
I agree with Pawian, I do believe that the manuscripts of German composers should go back to Berlin, in spite of the fact that Germans started WW II. I wish we could get something from Germany in exchange Germany, Poland Fight Over Manuscripts KRAKOW, Poland - A priceless manuscript at a Polish library shows how Mozart wrote down his Piano Concerto No. 27 in B-flat Major - neat, small notes, no corrections. Its neighbor in the collection, Beethoven's original copy of the third movement of his Symphony No. 8, bears witness to his creative agonies, with furious jottings and deletions. Both manuscripts are towering monuments of Germanic culture. But they've been in Poland since World War II - and despite pressure from the German government Poland says it has no intention of giving them back. The documents at the Jagiellonian Library are among tens of thousands of manuscripts the Nazis took out of Berlin's national library to protect from Allied bombings. They were initially moved to a military fortress and then hidden away in a remote Benedictine monastery. After the war, Polish authorities transported the manuscripts to the university library in Krakow. A recent article in Germany's Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung referred to the manuscripts from the former Prussian State Library as "the last German prisoners of war." www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/08/15/ap4023192.html
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Post by bescheid on Aug 16, 2007 9:15:06 GMT -7
I am sorry, but I do not agree with Pawian. I understand his feelings and I do respect those feelings in kind, in-as-much as also do I hold a great respekt to that of yours. For these feelings are intrinsic and are the road map of your lives.
As a person, I hold very little regard to the actions of the war. For the war is over, for even the stink of the dead is gone. What we have now, is today, the currant and present. Our future will be decided by our actions of today and as so, we must do our work with care.
In as much to these manuscripts, I do not agree with my country on these. For what does it matter as to which hands hold the works of the masters? For these works were created for all people as an enjoyment to the senses. Rather it be that of: Mozart/Beethoven/Wagner, these are non-the-less a few of the great masters, and should be revered as so.
It would be nice to keep those priceless works in the land of origin, but, not entirely necessary, for they are universal works of art,not matter the location of protection.
If the matter is so important to the Polish, then they need to act smart and use some good sense in place of emotional reactions and use a logical approach to this issue.
It is in the matter of exchange that is the logical approach. The holder of value {Poland} need only to provide to the wisher {Germany} of exact content of value currently held as ransom {this has been accomplished}. Then terms of exchange may only be determined once the holder of this value {Poland} will provide the wisher {Germany}, what it wants in exchange.
Once both parties have come to an agreement of equal value in exchange, then both parties may complete the exchange at the prior-agreed upon location.
For why is this not so painfully evident?
The whole matter is so very stupid...Or, am I missing a Polish point in the matter. Is this a Polish manner of deception to further irritate German people?
Or am I as a person, not able to see and understand this Polish viewpoint because of my in-born matter of logical thinking and over sense of reality?? Or perhaps I have been in civil service too much of my life and have suffered the decadence of decency, sensitivity of others?
Charles
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Post by pieter on Aug 16, 2007 15:11:02 GMT -7
I have to say that I agree with Charles! I often do not understand the overemotional or sentimental Polish mind or soul, that may be my Dutch half or my Dutch uprbinging? I don't know!
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george
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 568
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Post by george on Aug 16, 2007 16:40:53 GMT -7
For once i almost agree with Charles. However, he is tricky when it comes to an exchange of the countries valuables. He wants an exact exchange. I have a better idea. How about if Poland returns German cultural property to Germany left behind from the post war land exchange, and Germany returns ALL of the Polish cultural items Germany stole like a common thief during the war. Sounds a lot more fair to me. And while their at it, maybe Poland can bill Bonn for the destruction of Warsaw. And yes Charles, i think you have worked too long as a " civil servant".
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Aug 26, 2007 2:16:54 GMT -7
I am sorry, but I do not agree with Pawian. I understand his feelings and I do respect those feelings in kind, in-as-much as also do I hold a great respekt to that of yours. For these feelings are intrinsic and are the road map of your lives. As a person, I hold very little regard to the actions of the war. For the war is over, for even the stink of the dead is gone. What we have now, is today, the currant and present. Our future will be decided by our actions of today and as so, we must do our work with care. In as much to these manuscripts, I do not agree with my country on these. For what does it matter as to which hands hold the works of the masters? For these works were created for all people as an enjoyment to the senses. Rather it be that of: Mozart/Beethoven/Wagner, these are non-the-less a few of the great masters, and should be revered as so. It would be nice to keep those priceless works in the land of origin, but, not entirely necessary, for they are universal works of art,not matter the location of protection. If the matter is so important to the Polish, then they need to act smart and use some good sense in place of emotional reactions and use a logical approach to this issue. It is in the matter of exchange that is the logical approach. The holder of value {Poland} need only to provide to the wisher {Germany} of exact content of value currently held as ransom {this has been accomplished}. Then terms of exchange may only be determined once the holder of this value {Poland} will provide the wisher {Germany}, what it wants in exchange. Once both parties have come to an agreement of equal value in exchange, then both parties may complete the exchange at the prior-agreed upon location. For why is this not so painfully evident? The whole matter is so very stupid...Or, am I missing a Polish point in the matter. Is this a Polish manner of deception to further irritate German people? Or am I as a person, not able to see and understand this Polish viewpoint because of my in-born matter of logical thinking and over sense of reality?? Or perhaps I have been in civil service too much of my life and have suffered the decadence of decency, sensitivity of others? Charles I don`t understand what it is that I have written and you don`t agree with? You seem to suggest trading which I wouldn`t object to? So, what do you mean?
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Aug 26, 2007 2:37:56 GMT -7
For once i almost agree with Charles. However, he is tricky when it comes to an exchange of the countries valuables. He wants an exact exchange. I have a better idea. How about if Poland returns German cultural property to Germany left behind from the post war land exchange, and Germany returns ALL of the Polish cultural items Germany stole like a common thief during the war. Sounds a lot more fair to me. Look at German cultural property which they left behind after the land exchange. The major German city of Wrocław, ruined in 70% by allied air raids, German defence and looters from the Red Army: The major German city of Szczecin, ruined in 45% by allied air raids, German defence and looters from the Red Army: The major German city of Gdańsk, ruined in 80% by allied air raids, German defence and looters from the Red Army: More pics here: sabaoth.infoserve.pl/danzig-online/1945.htmlfor example, a nice row of front walls. See the empty spaces behind them? That nicely symbolises the worth of German property in Polish hands! As it is, like Charles said, a long time after the war and the stench of corpses is long gone, allow me to use my usual hahahahahahahahaha while looking at the German cultural property handed over to Poles. Hey, isn`t Berlin the capital of Germany? hahahaha
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