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Post by troubledgoodangel on Aug 18, 2007 6:42:47 GMT -7
One wonders how wealthy is Poland today, but it is probably something beyond imagination, compared to what it was 15 years ago. Yesterday, 35 billion z³otych were wiped out on the Warsaw Stock Exchange. It is a huge sum, and in America this would make a big news. Certainly, it seems a huge sum for me. But here the life goes on, and most citizens barely even noticed it. They simply do not want to hear. The newspapers are also silent, more concerned with trivialities like for instance how much political life there is left for Andrzej Lepper. People swim in an unprecedented opulence, unheard of in this part of the world. They do not care that the government has been "in crisis" for years. Many own million z³oty homes all around Cracow, with at least two cars in the garages. The television set in the place where I rent covers half the wall. The view is so spectacular, that it has nothing to envy to Beverly Hills. There are millions similar homes elsewhere in the country. Every young person, even teenagers, can buy a home today almost instantly if they are Polish citizens working, with zero deposit. I do not recall such bonanza in my 30 years in the U.S.! The Americans of course have to pay cash. They are not even allowed a computer connection, lest they have a karta pobytu (a permit to stay which costs 340 z³otych and three months of their time). As a result, I write from a Caffee Internet at Galeria Krakowska. It is a huge fully airconditioned shopping center in the midst of Cracow. It is an impresive structure, so impresive that I can't remember one like it in the U.S. Built by ECE Projectmanagement Polska, which directs 90 similar centers in Europe and the Middle East, it is one of four similar shoping galleries in Poland, one in £ódz, one in Wroc³aw, , one in Gdañsk, and another in Gdañsk is to open this year. The ECE has so far invested 620 million euro in Poland. Typically, its galeries are built in the very heart of the cities, and are by far the most visited. Opened in the Fall of 2006, Galeria Krakowska is definitely one of the largest and most beautiful commercial centers with its 60 thousand square meters and 270 major world class stores and restaurants represented. Going back to the topic of economy, as far as I can see Poland is headed to an unprecedented in her history economic expansion. What is remarkable, is that virtually everybody will soon own a home, and unemployment will soon be a thing of the past. I wish the United States could have a similar optimistic future!
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zooba
Full Pole
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Post by zooba on Aug 20, 2007 2:11:03 GMT -7
Every young person, even teenagers, can buy a home today almost instantly if they are Polish citizens working, with zero deposit. This almost made me laugh - of course they can't buy houses like that. There are procedures, negotiations, you must give the bank guarantees, have a least some of the money needed for the house/apartment (20-30%), not mentioning that the prices are soaring. That's a pity that there are so many obstacles for foreigners to have Internet access and other services - that's stupid regulations and everybody comes across such stuff all the time. Yes, there are residences being built all around big cities but about 90% of Polish citizens belong to the lowest tax group earning up to 14 thousand dollars per year.
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Post by Jaga on Aug 20, 2007 8:07:49 GMT -7
my niece was refused the loan for the house in the country in Poland. She had enough as a downpayment but the bank refused stating that the house... was too cheap.
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Post by leslie on Aug 20, 2007 8:48:19 GMT -7
Ian and Pawi You both live in Poland - what is your reaction to the comments at the start of this thread? Certainly I, and I am sure others would be very interested. Leslie
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kanga
Freshman Pole
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Post by kanga on Aug 21, 2007 0:53:59 GMT -7
The comments made by "troubledgoodangel" are interesting, hmmm I must have worn blinkers on my last visit to Poland, I can't see too many people seeing Poland as the new America and returning in droves. I agree progress is being made and at what expense! One has to always factor in that the average Pole earns 3000zl per month. Its not much after food, transport and accommodation expenses. The banks don't offer credit to anybody, it has very strict guidelines.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Aug 26, 2007 0:17:20 GMT -7
Ian and Pawi You both live in Poland - what is your reaction to the comments at the start of this thread? Certainly I, and I am sure others would be very interested. Leslie I am going to analyse Angel`s post thouroughly, as usual. Then you will learn my opinion. Also stay tuned to the Polish Impressions thread where I am going to put the pictures of Polish houses taken both in towns and cities as well as in the countryside during my vacation to the seaside and mountains this year. PS. Don`t you think this last sentence is too long? hahahahahahahaha
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Aug 26, 2007 1:13:47 GMT -7
One wonders how wealthy is Poland today, but it is probably something beyond imagination, compared to what it was 15 years ago. Yes, 15 years ago, in 1992, Poland was a post communist country where most people were poor and knew very little about the free market. No, they want to hear. The report about the falling stock exchange opened the evening news. I know becasue that was the only news I watched on vacation, I was interested. I have invested some money in the fund, but I don`t care too much because it is a long term investment. Now I see how the prices are going up again. It is not a triviality, it is the matter if life and death for Lepper! hahahahahaha You should have added: A few/some people swim in unprecedented opulence. That`s true. Compared to 1992, let alone communist times, people with business talents make a lot of money and they are ready to sho it to the public. How? ...by building a house. But certainly it is not millions. Probably hundreds. It only looks millions to us because we remember times when there was one or two posh houses in Krakow and everybody admired them. Today there are hundreds and the difference between old and modern times is really striking. Of course not. Not every young person, let alone teenagers. Not zero deposit. It is true that most houses and apartments are bought today with bank loans but banks are not stupid, they don`t offer loan to everybody. Is it different in Western countries? Can a foreigner take a loan in the bank so easily? Probably you mean they are not allowed the connection from the official provider, monopolistic TP. But there are dozens of small privately owned providers operating in Krakow. It is just enough to rent a flat connected to such a provider and the procedure is easy - you just sign the contract, that`s all. I know because I helped to install a connection for people who live temporarily in Krakow. I was surprised it is so easy. Hmm, it is just a giant mall in the shape of a long rectangular block with many shops along glass and steel corridors on two stories. It is so dull. I don`t think it is so impressive to American standards. I think it is normal. It could be quite outstanding in Krakow if it had been built earlier but Galeria Kazimierz was first and it looks much more impressive. Galeria Kazimierz is much more interesting because it was built on the area of historical value. They were not allowed to demolish some buildings already existing there, they had to renovate them. Today there are galleries and pubs. See how this composition looks like. upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/f/f3/20060604111353!Galeria_Kazimierz.JPG www.penetron.pl/UserFiles/realizacje/galeria_kazimierz2.jpgwww.zwiadowca.pl/produkt/files/Epj,IY0n,,5JNn0r3RA.OHM2..diAf8B/GaleriaKazimierz.jpg www.isover.pl/_files/Gallery/tn/Galeria_Kazimierz_003mbgk.jpgGaleria Krakowska described by you is rather dull and typical. www.dagnez.com.pl/img-index/gkk.jpgbank.muratorplus.pl/images//Vol0002/26924.jpgIt looks better at night plfoto.com/zdjecia_new/1065187.jpgI agree. The boom started after the collapse of communism, and was given momentum after accessing the Union. Poles are richer, but at the same time certain negative processes are taking place. For example, Poles become less and less religious every year. Well, the truth is that most people in Poland make ends meet by working hard all day, during weekends, going abroad for better wages and salaries, saving a lot, avoiding unnecesary purchases. It doesn`t matter much that there are a few tycoons who have money to burn, ebery countrym even the poorest have such people. But we must also look at the other part of the population, the majority. It is still a long road to reach the Western countries` level of development and style of life. I am an optimist about it too, it might happen in my lifetime or not, I don`t care, but it will.
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kanga
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Post by kanga on Aug 27, 2007 17:49:34 GMT -7
For example, Poles become less and less religious every year. QUOTE.
Pawian, whilst I agree with that statement, sadly its not that they are less religious, its more anti religious. During my last visit to Poland, I couldn't help to notice that young people have a very negative attitude to the church, churches which were packed out years ago are just only full. Under communism people saw the church as a symbol of hope, now that communism is gone, people have embraced the new system and religion has no meaning. Materialism has become a new god. I wonder if in the first place Poles were really religious or was it a cultural thing?
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Aug 27, 2007 22:48:44 GMT -7
For example, Poles become less and less religious every year. QUOTE. Pawian, whilst I agree with that statement, sadly its not that they are less religious, its more anti religious. During my last visit to Poland, I couldn't help to notice that young people have a very negative attitude to the church, churches which were packed out years ago are just only full. It is not a problem, young people are always anti-everything, that`s typical. What do you think I was like when I was young? hahahahaha Most of these young people who are anti today will choose the church wedding when the time comes, they will christen their children and send them to the Holly Communion etc. If they do it in true faith or not, that will be the question. What young people are against today is not God or even religion. They are against greedy, materialistic, intolerant priests who collect eathly riches or take part in dirty politics and at the same time dare to preach religious virtues to people. That`s true. Apart from this, there were other reasons too. A well-known phenomenon took place - in stressful times, people turned to God and religion. A Polish saying - Kiedy trwoga, to do Boga (when scared, we go to God). Today the times are less stressful, so people feee no need to find consolation in religion. Poles are not much different than other European nations, including those secularised ones. There are true believers in Poland, but when you hear that 95% are Catholics, you should remain sceptical about it. Many of this percent consider religion a cultural thing - they only believe that they believe because they simply go to church on Sunday - they are so called Sunday catholics. On other days they do not care much about commandments etc. These "cultural" people are those who are leaving religion today. Their new culture is materialism, as we have already agreed. I estimate that from these 95% today, in 20 years` time only about 30% will remain.
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zooba
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Post by zooba on Aug 28, 2007 5:45:38 GMT -7
) there is one more angle to that - for years, if not centuries, the church in Poland rather served a a bond for the Polish nation, not so much as the spiritual guidance. When finally the communism crashed, a lot of priests could not find the language to reach people. some of them turned to praise the old times, seek enemies (Fr. Rydzyk), some other are looking for the ways of approaching people (e.g. a Dominican monk FR. Jan Góra from Poznan) the rest is quite lost. To tell the truth, I go to church every Sunday but hardly ever I hear a sermon that teaches anything, that explains the readings etc. I know I could try harder to find a better place in church, where I could build my relations with God, but after all I guess this happens in heart, not in some buildings. But the economic boom is here - although I have 20 years of mortgage ahead of us, we do have a house
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Post by leslie on Aug 28, 2007 7:04:24 GMT -7
Pawi I believe your comments about Sunday Catholics, or any other religion, are simply paying lip service and the 95% Catholicism of Poland is a myth. My belief (or one of them) is based on the sayings of George Fox - the founder of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers) in that: "God dwelleth in the hearts of his obedient people: religious experience is not confined to a church building of brick, stone or wood". Indeed, Fox refused to apply the word "Church" to a building, using instead the name "steeple-house", a usage maintained by many Quakers today. Fox would just as soon worship in fields and orchards, believing that God's presence could be felt anywhere. It is my belief - although as you know I do not force this type of thing on anyone - it is again fear of the strength of the Polish Catholic Church that has produced the myth that I stated earlier (for example the DEMAND to the EU that 'Christianity' should be included in the EU Constitution (or whatever word is used now to avoid upsetting people as a result of the last Referendum). Perhaps it is my Friends upbringing that leads me in my desire that people should believe in whatever God they wish to do so; that they should be allowed to worship that belief in whichever way their beliefs guide them; and that people with other beliefs should respect these different approaches. Sorry for the sermon on the computer chair Leslie
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Aug 28, 2007 10:43:41 GMT -7
Pawi I believe your comments about Sunday Catholics, or any other religion, are simply paying lip service and the 95% Catholicism of Poland is a myth. I had to check the meaning of this idiom "pay lip service." It means to pretend to agree with someone or approve of an idea, etc without really doing so. I must say I can`t understand what you mean at all. I also consider it a myth, I have already written before: There are true believers in Poland, but when you hear that 95% are Catholics, you should remain sceptical about it.. So, why are you using this idiom? I must be getting old. I don`t understand what is written to me...
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Aug 28, 2007 10:49:28 GMT -7
) To tell the truth, I go to church every Sunday but hardly ever I hear a sermon that teaches anything, that explains the readings etc. It depends on a priest, then. I am lucky to hear an educational sermon almost every Sunday.
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kanga
Freshman Pole
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Post by kanga on Sept 1, 2007 20:21:53 GMT -7
I estimate that from these 95% today, in 20 years` time only about 30% will remain.[/quote]
I disagree, the Polish people have fought young and old to maintain there Christianity over a 1000 years, and a short burst of economic boom will not change this, sure the new economic times have eaten like a cancer into the lives of young Poles, but good times come and go and Poland will always be a country were the majority of people believe. Will the boom times benefit all Polish people, hmmm No, or will it be like the Communist times were the party members were the haves and non party members done it tough, are we now seeing the business people as the ones who have it all and the others are doing it tough?
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Sept 1, 2007 23:53:02 GMT -7
I disagree, the Polish people have fought young and old to maintain there Christianity over a 1000 years, and a short burst of economic boom will not change this, sure the new economic times have eaten like a cancer into the lives of young Poles, but good times come and go and Poland will always be a country were the majority of people believe. Short burst? Good times come and go? hahahahahaha Do you think that something can be stopped? Or that a major disaster is going to happen in Poland soon? Like the end of the world in 2012? hahahahahahaha Besides, many countries in Europe have also fought for their christianity and today they are secular. Vide: France, Spain. Or Germany with 20% believers. So, whether it was 1000 years or longer means very little. The process of secularization has started and nothing can stop it. You can only dispute how long it is going to take and what final percent of believers will remain. Is it much different in the West? Where, for example, apartments and houses are owned by 20% people, while the rest have to rent because they cannot afford buying one?
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