kanga
Freshman Pole
Posts: 39
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Post by kanga on Sept 4, 2007 1:47:32 GMT -7
Short burst? Good times come and go? hahahahahaha Do you think that something can be stopped? Or that a major disaster is going to happen in Poland soon? Like the end of the world in 2012? hahahahahahaha Besides, many countries in Europe have also fought for their christianity and today they are secular. Vide: France, Spain. Or Germany with 20% believers. So, whether it was 1000 years or longer means very little. The process of secularization has started and nothing can stop it. You can only dispute how long it is going to take and what final percent of believers will remain. One thing I find quite amazing is how some Poles just love to throw away what they have been given, to be somehow accepted by the west, what a joke. No the end of the world will not occur in 2012. LOL. Poland will return to being faithful to its faith and Catholic Church.
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Sept 4, 2007 7:02:32 GMT -7
One thing I find quite amazing is how some Poles just love to throw away what they have been given, to be somehow accepted by the west, what a joke. Poland will return to being faithful to its faith and Catholic Church. Firstly, you would need to clarify what exactly Poles have been given and by whom. Secondly, I must say that you are a very stubborn person. I have been trying to reason with you but to no avail. Talking about the process of the secularization which has already started I mean a phenomenon of social nature which is as unavoidable as women`s liberation, for example. You just can`t prevent people from losing faith just like you couldn`t prevent women from liberating themselves in your country a few decades ago. It happened in such bastion of christianity as Spain, it is going to happen in Poland too. Thirdly, it has nothing to do with fawning to the West. I can assure you about it. The truth is much simpler - people feel they don`t need God or religion to cope with their everyday life problems. You have the right to believe so although I know it is wishful thinking and day-dreaming.
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Post by troubledgoodangel on Sept 4, 2007 11:58:28 GMT -7
I will respond to Zooba, first. I do not know where you get your information. My information comes from Cracow. I have been told by two or three banks, that "the home loans are given with zero deposit for all Polish citizens with stable work." It cannot be that these bankers are lying! The announcements are pasted all over the bank windows, besides! No one ever told me that there is a down payment in those banks! My original statement was not that all the banks do this, but that it is possible today to buy a home in Cracow without a down payment, if work and citizenship requirements are met. It may be true that there is no such program in Poznañ, but this does not invalidate what I said.
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Post by troubledgoodangel on Sept 4, 2007 12:11:04 GMT -7
I forget to mention that Zooba's assertion that "Polish people in the 14,000 a year income bracket cannot build homes," is also seriously flowed. What is forgotten, is that the Polish citizens in the 14,000 low income bracket are actually very rich compared to the U.S. standards! Why? Because 90% of these people already own either "spó³dzielnia" apartments for which they had paid the 1 z³oty "symbolic" down payment under Communism, or they own building lots and dashas in the countryside around great cities, which under Communism were worth close to nothing, but which after Communism became priceless assets! Not paying for food and housing, these people now have abundant money left to modernize or build new homes on their land! Believe me, I see this happening each day around me! And this is what I was talking about.
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Post by troubledgoodangel on Sept 4, 2007 12:17:11 GMT -7
Now to Jaga. Your niece must have applied before the new laws were passed on government subsidized home loans! Today, one or two national banks (I do not recall which), offer such loans under this new law, which allows up to (something like 200,000 z³otych), on zero deposit for citizens working! A year ago, neither I have seen these announcements anywhere in Poland. But the times are changing fast.
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Sept 4, 2007 12:33:59 GMT -7
I will respond to Zooba, first. I do not know where you get your information. My information comes from Cracow. I have been told by two or three banks, that "the home loans are given with zero deposit for all Polish citizens with stable work." It cannot be that these bankers are lying! OK, we were wrong about it because we hadn`t refreshed our knowledge about bank loans... You are right, many banks offer loans with zero deposit, however, you must prove that you are able to cover monthly instalments with your salary. And the bank owns your house until you pay the debt, of course. I don`t know how it looks in practice but , yes, it is theoretically possible. You are right here, I checked the current bank offers. No, I think it is the same everywhere, also in Poznań, Zooba and I just didn`t keep in touch with newest trends, the situation has been changing so rapidly....
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Sept 4, 2007 12:41:17 GMT -7
Dear Angel, please, don`t forget about me!!!
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Post by troubledgoodangel on Sept 4, 2007 13:32:59 GMT -7
Finally to Pawian, I am sorry for you, but I repeat that I find your "thoroughly analyzing my comments" unacceptable. I thought that I have made this clear to Jaga, when you were on vacation. If you disagree with my comments, so be it. But you have no right to to be personally antagonistic! If you continue in this way, count me off this blog! People who are contentious do not belong in a civilized idea sharing on a cultural show! You have to learn to respect others, if you want to be respected! Now to your points. (1) you are wrong that "people want to hear about stock market money loses" simply because you do not say which people! Those who have lost in the last stock market crush, are a small group of multimillioners and foreign investors! They may want to hear. But the average person, I mean ordinary Poles I meant in my remark, could care less whether the wealthy go down! (2) decent Poles, and they are in the millions, give a darn whether Lepper survives or not ... and they are even less preoccupied what he thinks about himself! Most educated Poles know, that Lepper is not a good model for their children! (3) you are also wrong that "a few, some people build houses." Today, thanks to generous bank loans, in virtually all of Poland, millions of delapidated city and rural houses, I repeat, millions, are being either torn down and rebuilt, or are being reconstructed into modern housing! Of course, this is a process in becoming, in different stages. But this is the massive trend that begins to take shape. (4) next, you are dead wrong that there are not new laws now enabling house loans with zero deposit! These loans have nothing to do with "stupidity or non-stupidity of the banks," but have everything to do with governmental guarantees and subsidies that some national banks have chosen to abide by! Neither are teenage couples excluded from such loans, provided that the are married and working! (5) whether a foreigner "can take a loan easily," this depends in each country. In European Union, for instance, no country is allowed to discriminate on loans for its members! It is the Polish law, like most Polish laws still a residue from Communism, that is coming into conflict! (6) you have misinterpreted my words on computer connection and home telephone connection impediments for foreigners. What I meant, is that in Poland no American can get the Neostrada on his own, and no private telephone (a Communist law!), but he or she has to rent in a house where there is one, and beg the owner to allow him to connect his computer to his telephone! This law, I said, is a disgusting discrimination, having a crushing effect on foreign students, and inviting their dependency on often churlish and manipulating landlords! I have lived through this, so I speak from experience! I have already filed several protests with the Neostrada, the Ministry of Education, the Ministry of Communications, and President Kaczyñski. Time permitting, I will be doing the same thing with the European Union! Americans are not slaves to be made dependent on others for basic services .. by Communist era laws still on the books must go! (7) You also misstate the number of floors at Galeria Krakowska: it has three, not two! I have lived 30 years in America, and have never seen anything like it, certainly not in New Jersey, or Chicago, or new Orleans or anywhere else in the world! (8) finally you are also mistaken on Poland's chances, as compared to the U.S. Today, hundreds of thousands of heavy drinkers in Poland that would have been catalogued as "bums" by the U.S. standards and culture, own houses and plots of land, while countless intellectuals, especially from abroad, have to rent ... from them! It is moreover the children of these people who emigrate for work. They are not homeless; the parents' houses await them if they fail! On the contrary, they send money to refurbish their houses in Poland, and for vodka on the side. I conclude by saying: there is no room in a Polish Culture blog for "personal competition" between writers and moderators! Opinions can be challenged, and challenges can be met, by all means. But agrumentums ad hominem are not a valid response, and should not be tolerated by anyone! I will rather quit, than have to go through this again!
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Sept 4, 2007 14:16:37 GMT -7
Finally to Pawian, I am sorry for you, but I repeat that I find your "thoroughly analyzing my comments" unacceptable. I thought that I have made this clear to Jaga, when you were on vacation. If you disagree with my comments, so be it. But you have no right to to be personally antagonistic! If you continue in this way, count me off this blog! People who are contentious do not belong in a civilized idea sharing on a cultural show! You have to learn to respect others, if you want to be respected! I conclude by saying: there is no room in a Polish Culture blog for "personal competition" between writers and moderators! Opinions can be challenged, and challenges can be met, by all means. But agrumentums ad hominem are not a valid response, and should not be tolerated by anyone! I will rather quit, than have to go through this again! O la la I am afraid to comment on your post in fear of you leaving the forum.... I certainly wouldn`t like that, Dear Angel. If I hurt your feelings, I am so sorry... But, as I understand it, you want me to stop disagreeing with you because you will leave? You expect me to always corroborate your opinions and views? This is really an extraordinary demand ......
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george
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 568
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Post by george on Sept 4, 2007 15:25:32 GMT -7
Quote: Will the boom times benefit all Polish people, hmmm No, or will it be like the Communist times were the party members were the haves and non party members done it tough, are we now seeing the business people as the ones who have it all and the others are doing it tough?
Pawian wrote Is it much different in the West? Where, for example, apartments and houses are owned by 20% people, while the rest have to rent because they cannot afford buying one?
Correction. In America ( part of the west) 68% of households are homeowners. Oooh La La
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Post by Jaga on Sept 4, 2007 21:14:36 GMT -7
Now to Jaga. Your niece must have applied before the new laws were passed on government subsidized home loans! Today, one or two national banks (I do not recall which), offer such loans under this new law, which allows up to (something like 200,000 z³otych), on zero deposit for citizens working! A year ago, neither I have seen these announcements anywhere in Poland. But the times are changing fast. Thanks for this information I will check with my brother how things work. Maybe they are entitled to a better loan by government.
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kanga
Freshman Pole
Posts: 39
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Post by kanga on Sept 4, 2007 21:34:59 GMT -7
Secondly, I must say that you are a very stubborn person. I have been trying to reason with you but to no avail. Talking about the process of the secularization which has already started I mean a phenomenon of social nature which is as unavoidable as women`s liberation, for example. You just can`t prevent people from losing faith just like you couldn`t prevent women from liberating themselves in your country a few decades ago. It happened in such bastion of christianity as Spain, it is going to happen in Poland too.
Pawian, Thanks for your encouraging reply, It's nice to know that somebody knows everything and everything. It would be nice to know a bit about your background! are you a prophet? or do you read tea leaves to make such comments?
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Sept 5, 2007 6:43:50 GMT -7
Pawian wrote Is it much different in the West? Where, for example, apartments and houses are owned by 20% people, while the rest have to rent because they cannot afford buying one? Correction. In America ( part of the west) 68% of households are homeowners. Oooh La La OK, most houses are owned and occupied by legal owners and the percent rate is high. But let me draw your attention to the fact that I put apartments in the first place and only then houses. The ownership of apartments is much lower than houses. All in all, it is quite possible that putting those two numbers together we will receive the result mentioned by you, 68%. That`t the USA. How about Europe?
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Sept 5, 2007 7:18:03 GMT -7
Pawian, Thanks for your encouraging reply, It's nice to know that somebody knows everything and everything. Not at all. It`s nice to know that there are people who are able to appreciate a person who knows everything and everything. As such an appreciator you are a very valuable individual, needed by every society. hahahahahahahaha hahahahahaha I am not o prophet. I am a teacher and a genius. I have an amazing knack to foresee what is going to happen in the future. When I say to a lazy student that he/she won`t pass the exam unless they start learning, you know what??!! I am seldom mistaken!! No. Besides this that I am a genius teacher, I am a mature person who has been paying close attention to certain things around me for some years now. I suppose it is not necessary to enlighten you that I have been living in Poland, the country of our interest, all these years. One of the things I have been observing is church attendance and people`s attitude to religion. What I told you about the process of secularization can be proven by fewer people going to church today than in the past. I have photos taken in the same church on the same religious holiday over some time to see the difference. Now, what arguments can you present to support your view about Poles coming back to their faith and church one day in the future? So far you have based your arguments on faith.....
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Sept 5, 2007 8:07:06 GMT -7
If you disagree with my comments, so be it. But you have no right to to be personally antagonistic! OK, I will disagree with your comments (at appropriate moments) without being antagonistic! (just like I have been doing it so far, btw). I certainly respect you very much! What makes you think otherwise? Of course not. I am not a foreign investor, I am an average person and I am worried (not so much really hahahahaha) about my losses (actually, they are not losses but a bit lower profit). And so are many average people in Poland. Do you know the statistics of how invest funds swelled in recent year? It wasn`t thanks to multimillionaires, it was the flood of money from small investors! HWen I have time, I will find this statistics for you. I agree. I was joking about Lepper. (3) Millions is an overgeneralised exaggeration which I can accept as a certain metaphor. Let it be so. OK, OK, let it be so, at least in theory and advertisements. We could only check it by sending a teenage couple to a bank for a loan.... Do you know anybody like that? Hmm.... Yes, it is true in case of monopolistic TPSA. But you weren`t careful in your reading when I suggested that there are several dozen of local providers who don`t care about nationalities. I gave you an example how easy it is to get a connection. But if you want Neostrada, then you have a problem... Yes, I agree. To no avail. They are occupied with their dirty wars ...... Ooops, I didn`t count the zero floor which is underground. But yes, technically, Galeria Krakowska is a three story building. How about Honolulu? Seriously, there are many three-story buildings. Not only in Moscow, Berlin and Riyadh in Saudi Arabia. Also in the USA. You probably never visited the Mall of America. The Mall of America is basically square in shape, with fairly conventional three-story shopping malls forming the four sides. In the center is Camp Snoopy, an indoor amusement park, with roller coaster, log ride, carousel, and all the usual rides.upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Interior_mall_of_america.jpg That is again some overgeneralization which needs to be decided by statistics, namely, how many heavy drinkers classified as bums according to American standards own houses of what worth.
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