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Post by troubledgoodangel on Dec 15, 2007 3:58:25 GMT -7
My time is very limited, but I want to synthesize all that has been said. I have nothing personal against Mike. The only thing that has rubbed me the wrong way, is the inconsistency in his saying that "you work to change things you think need change" - something I strongly agree with (you can read my Huffington Post entries, to see how much I am doing to change America) - and his simultaneous invitation for people "to leave, if they don't like the way the things are." This problem is not just Mike's - this problem is universal! You hear the same exact "invitation" wherever you go in today's world. In Guatemala I was told "to leave" after I criticized Col. Ramirez, a high ranking member of the military junta. My own father bought me an airplane ticket next day, and told me to run for my life (I stayed). In Italy, where I emigrated in 1999, I have been told "why don't you leave" each time I criticized publicly the 'ndrangheta Calabrese and the Sicilian Mafia. Some people get upset when I tell them that the sidewalks should not be spit upon. Others tell me "to leave" because I criticize the mistreatment of the immigrants. Still others, even priests, tell me, a theologian, "to leave" wherever I want to improve something in the Canon Law. Virtually all tell me "to leave" each time I voice my outrage at the present state of the Italian culture. And on and on and on. This reaction comes with the territory for those who love humanity, who want to change things for the better, and who will never settle for the status quo.
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Post by valpomike on Dec 15, 2007 10:43:24 GMT -7
freetobe,
Who are you to judge if I am or not the problem? Looks to me, like no place want you. The U.S.A. does want me, and I am sure. I work on changes every day.
Michael Dabrowski
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Post by freetobe on Dec 15, 2007 11:51:33 GMT -7
Mary, Are you aware that the Fed government may examine you and your familys public library records? What you read may be a danger to national security. Your telephone records are provided to the feds with out benefit of a warrant and your knowledge. I have no idea if my right to privacy was trod upon by the feds checking what I read or who I call because they don't have to tell me. I don't agree with the notion that as long as you have nothing to hide you should not be concerned. Public niavete about the workings of fed spying on Americans in the name of security is mind boggling. Old Mike the non-veteran private investigator is probably laughing his toes off right now. Investigators, public, private or whatever just love the opportunity to tune into their targets privacy. Doesn't make any difference if the target is the guilty party or not. The U.S. Constitution is being violated by the feds every day, all with the approval of the right wingers in control of our government. I get very annoyed (shouldn't because it is not going to influence your thinking) at the ignorance and bias displayed on this site. In some ways I am just as stubborn as the rest of you and I don't expect to change.
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Post by freetobe on Dec 15, 2007 11:53:37 GMT -7
Mike, Practice what you preach, "who are you to judge"!
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Post by valpomike on Dec 15, 2007 17:29:54 GMT -7
feetobe,
First off, I am a veteran, Second, Why can't I judge, you do? Next, you can read a book on bomb making, if you can read. Do you want some nut to be able to get this information. What makes you think the feds want your phone records? You don't know anything of Investigators, Private or Public, I see, but I am not suppriesed. You need move to Germay, where your thinking you are better than the rest of us, would fit in, as a regular. The feds, don't have time for you, and your nothing life, they are full or work, keeping us safe. And what do you think of that.
Michael Dabrowski
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Post by hollister on Dec 15, 2007 18:01:43 GMT -7
Michael, If, say Hillary Clinton, becomes our next President, will you defend her right to potentially access your phone, flight or other personal records? I am also curious why you did not respond to what TGA had to say. I pasted a link to his post below for your reference.
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Mary
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 934
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Post by Mary on Dec 15, 2007 18:16:34 GMT -7
Mary, Are you aware that the Fed government may examine you and your familys public library records? What you read may be a danger to national security. Huh? You must live in a different dimension! I hardly think anything I read, mostly books on autism, would be of interest to the feds. I'm afraid you must think you are awfully important. Get real! They are going after bigger fish than you. Excuse me for saying this but you sound rather paranoid. You have the right to be as annoyed as you want, and No you're not going to change my mind. That's perfectly within your rights to be as stubborn as you want, and it's within the rights of the rest of us that you are so annoyed with. Mary
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Post by Jaga on Dec 15, 2007 21:36:25 GMT -7
+++I have 3 children, seven grandchildren. If wire tapping or whatever means are necessary to protect them, I am all for it!+++
the problem - this system can be easily abused and used by a government and its officials to put their heads not in their business. This already happened in some cases.
Mary,
I believe that reminding people about a constant thread is more of the psychological propaganda than reality. Almost all totalitarian regimes are doing that. Soviets asked their people look around, do not trust their neighbors since the enemy is around us.
This makes people to be much more susceptible to LET GOVERNMENT DO WHATEVER THEY WANT. It limits democratic privileges of the people and make strong and military government.
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Post by Jaga on Dec 15, 2007 21:46:26 GMT -7
+++I have 3 children, seven grandchildren. If wire tapping or whatever means are necessary to protect them, I am all for it!+++ the problem - this system can be easily abused and used by a government and its officials to put their heads not in their business. This already happened in some cases. Mary, I believe that reminding people about a constant thread is more of the psychological propaganda than reality. Almost all totalitarian regimes are doing that. Soviets asked their people look around, do not trust their neighbors since the enemy is around us. This makes people to be much more susceptible to LET GOVERNMENT DO WHATEVER THEY WANT. It limits democratic privileges of the people and make strong and military government, simply a totalitarian system.
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Mary
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 934
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Post by Mary on Dec 15, 2007 22:09:51 GMT -7
+++I have 3 children, seven grandchildren. If wire tapping or whatever means are necessary to protect them, I am all for it!+++ the problem - this system can be easily abused and used by a government and its officials to put their heads not in their business. This already happened in some cases. Jaga, If you can verify some cases as you mentioned I would be interested in hearing about them. Jaga, Perhaps the fact that some of us have lived free for generations in the US and others have not, is the reason we have a different view on this. Also, there are a lot of checks, and balances built into our democratic form of government. It has worked well for years, and many other governments have used the US as a blueprint for theirs. I think it is our government's job, as elected officials to protect us from harm as much as possible. It is a cruel world, and all is not fair, but our government needs all the tools possible to protect us. This is a different world than it was when the constitution was written. Although it has served us VERY WELL, sometimes you need to re-evaluate and weigh the costs. I'm not willing to sacrifice my children and grandchildren, OR YOURS, so that some terrorist can move freely and carry out their murderous deeds. This is the reality we live with...... what and who are we willing to sacrifice for our protection and all the other freedoms we enjoy? I am willing to let the feds see what I am reading or listen to my phone conversations ( they would be bored to death ) to keep my loved ones safe. I also would be furious as hell if they did nothing, letting the terrorists wretch havoc on our citizens and destroy our great nation as they would like to do. Sometimes you have to be tough. I think you feel my view is passive, I see it as the opposite. To be passive would be to let things run their course.............and that would lead to a certain DISASTER! Mary
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Post by freetobe on Dec 15, 2007 23:38:29 GMT -7
Mary and Mike, Without conceding that your positions are valid, I withdraw from this dialogue with these last observations. Mary does business with the federal government, no objectivity there. You justify the exorbitant costs of government purchases to the fed policy re shipping etc. Understand that the American taxpayer is footing the bill for all this and that means you too. Or maybe you don't pay taxes? You decided to put this topic on a personal basis and I chose to reply to your PERSONAL inquiry with two examples of federal government violation of the Constitution. Why does my personal experiences or absence of have any thing to due with the issue? Is fed spying on Americans reading habits or telephone conversations without benefit of a warrant justifiable? I say no! Jaga, who grew up under totaliarianism speaks better to this subject than I. Case closed Mike, Your observations about me, are no doubt redneck reaction to to my very keen read of your deceitful posts If you can't present an intelligent response, just throw out a lot of bluster and insults. In an previous post you claimed to be a veteran. A later post claimed non veteran staus. So which is it? Personally, I could care less. You are not an interesting subject, rednecks never are. Don't bother to reply as I have no intention of trading insults with either of you. Good bye and good riddance.
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Post by Jaga on Dec 16, 2007 0:33:39 GMT -7
+++Jaga, If you can verify some cases as you mentioned I would be interested in hearing about them.+++
I remember hearing about a wife and a husband, somehow he was able to wiretape her conversations illegally since he had connections. This was a story some time ago, but since I did not know the names I could not find it now. I did hear about several Patriot acts violations, like paying spies for listening to the conversations of the elderly people whose only problems was that they were opposing war, but they were just having more or less social meetings.
+++I am willing to let the feds see what I am reading or listen to my phone conversations ( they would be bored to death ) to keep my loved ones safe. I also would be furious as hell if they did nothing, letting the terrorists wretch havoc on our citizens and destroy our great nation as they would like to do. Sometimes you have to be tough. +++
it is a tough decision. I agree. I am not sure how much should be allowed or not. Do you know Mary that this was a Soviet Union who had a huge number of people involved in security services? What good did they do? They were working on keeping people to shut down their mouths.
+++am willing to let the feds see what I am reading or listen to my phone conversations ( they would be bored to death ) to keep my loved ones safe.+++
I do not want these agents to be paid by listening to my private conversations. This is ugly and illegal and made me question where my taxes go.
+++Jaga, Perhaps the fact that some of us have lived free for generations in the US and others have not, is the reason we have a different view on this. Also, there are a lot of checks, and balances built into our democratic form of government. It has worked well for years, and many other governments have used the US as a blueprint for theirs.+++
Yes, many Americans support their government unconditionally, especially on the right side. So called liberals are more scatter-minded and more hard to make their minds. Right now, it is about 1/3 of the population which Bush has a support which is a bit low, at least compared to Clinton. Still, probably more people in America support their government, than people abroad, since people abroad are very critical towards American government.
In Poland we learned to read between the lines and not to trust our government absolutely. On the other hand I do see here and in Russia many similarities. Russians also support a tough government of a strongman Putin. Maybe elections were not everywhere fair but nobody doubted that he will get over 50% of the vote. Why Russians support Putin so much? Because he gives them a strenght, he thinks for them. Yes, he limits democracy but this is not what is important for Russians. The most important, Putin gives Russians the hope that Russia is great and powerful. The same is in America. Americans want to control the world. It does not matter that there were no WMD in Iraq, Saddam is gone.
Just like in Russia, where people lived in fear, Americans live in fear. Just like in Russia the expenses to military and secret service agents were much higher than for regular gods for people, the same is becoming true in the US. The strong secret service always limits the democracy and freedom. Just like Russians love their country and their strong president, Americans do. Just like in Russia, almost nobody likes Putin outside Russia; the same in American, 1/3 of Am. people still trust their president but he has much lower reputation abroad.
Unfortunately American economy is in a very bad shape, we borrowed so much money to China that soon we may not be able to pay back any debt. I hope that Bin Laden words that the wars will destroy American economy would not become truth soon.
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Post by valpomike on Dec 16, 2007 11:46:13 GMT -7
freetobe,
I don't give a darn what you think, if you could. Someone with a small mind like you, must get a head ache from trying to think. I live a hour for Chicago, so how am I a redneck. Also, I don't hide where I live. Like you do. No matter who wins the election, I will suport them, since this will be, I hope the picking of the public. If they get counted correct. I am glad you no longer will respond to us, Mary and I, and we won't miss you closed mind. When ever the government wants to check into me or my records or actions, I will help all I can. There actions, help make this a safe place to live, and I am all for it.
Michael Dabrowski
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Post by pieter on Dec 16, 2007 12:56:41 GMT -7
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