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Post by kaima on Aug 15, 2008 10:45:37 GMT -7
Kai, We have no interests there, i.e. Georgia. So when Russia invades Poland because of the Shield we should not help there either since we have no interests there. Ah the almighty dollar is all it is about. Not Along with Dafur, there is no oil worth mentioning in Poland. Wait a minute, Bush assured us the missile shield has nothing to do with Russia, but it is only a defense against Iran or other unnamed maybe bad guys. Why are you worried about Russia and Poland? Surely they believe Bush as much as we do! |
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Post by jimpres on Aug 15, 2008 11:58:34 GMT -7
Right, there is no oil in Poland so you suggest we do not support them ala Georgia, no oil there either.
Well you may get a chance to decide.
Russia reacted angrily, saying that the move would worsen relations with the United States that have already been strained severely in the week since Russian troops entered separatist enclaves in Georgia, a close American ally. At a news conference on Friday, a senior Russian defense official, Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, suggested that Poland was making itself a target by agreeing to host the anti-missile system. Such an action “cannot go unpunished,” he said.
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Bob S
European
Rainbow Bear
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Post by Bob S on Aug 15, 2008 12:49:01 GMT -7
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Post by kaima on Aug 15, 2008 13:32:27 GMT -7
Bob,
You are letting Bush off the hook. What is our plan for Georgia? What is the plan for Poland - or better, what is the plan for keeping Poland out of serious trouble if Russia really kicks up a storm?
I expect there is no plan, as there was no post-war plan in Iraq.
It was and is obvious that the missile defense system in Poland would get Russia excited. We should look at our interests - and that includes considering whether the missile defense system is needed, if we can afford it, and what benefit it will bring to us.
Beating up on the French is a cowardly way of diverting attention from considering the Best Interest of the US. Let the Frenchmen decide that. Their interests are not ours, and THAT is the topic at hand, I believe. You have not addressed those interests.
Kai
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Bob S
European
Rainbow Bear
Posts: 2,052
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Post by Bob S on Aug 15, 2008 14:22:20 GMT -7
 Kai. That smilly should have been "tongue in cheek" but the one that was in my post was the closest I could come. Our national interest is "how to get new energy sources" and that ANWAR in your part of the country has good prospects. There is only one problem and that is, all those tourists who flock to that are to take advantage of all that natural scenry. How can we run them off? 
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Post by Atlantis5 on Aug 15, 2008 15:00:06 GMT -7
Bob Have read of your post has given to my self some thought. I believe I understand your consternation in regards to this situation of Georgia. It is not the end of the world, just some adjustments in behaviour of Georgian leadership. This has been dealt with. European affairs, I may understand as in your viewpoint, a rather very complicated, confusing road of confusion. Perhaps it is, but, perhaps it is not. It is a matter of proper focus and to keep a given situation in proper prospective. The Georgians knew what there actions were with full confidence. They had with them, 100 American advisers, they were fully equipped with far superior equipment over Russian equipment. But they lacked an ingredient of combat superiority of winning battles, they lack proper control and courage in the face of the enemy, they paid well for their indiscretions. But, this is not of that I wished to add to your very explicit post. For in the body of the post, are some very well grounded concerns of the many, the difference? You have placed these concerns into words, and as so you should. Europe has a very bad history of armed conflict in the far past, the recent, and shall continue into the future. The answer, I am not that smart to say. What only I may add is this: You live in a very powerful nation. Be careful in your choice of your leadership. In-as-much to Poland {as this is the focus of concern as this is a Polish ethnic forum} Poland will take care of self. For it is an advanced modern democracy with at least one highly capable man of leadership, but saddled with a hot-head of an idiot. But, the Polish people elect their leadership,so they must bear the responsibility. Nothing is in the wind of an invasion from the East into Poland, just simple coffee talk. Nothing more, nothing less. Poland is in no danger, nor of adjacent neighbouring states. It would be of great benefit though, to in this stead of antagonizing Russia, to in this stead, form a partnership of consolidation of resources in the energy area. To then form a better mutual understanding between that of Poland and Russia for the betterment of both. For Enemies are created, friends are made. Poland at least has a very capable and insightful leader, in Mr. Donald Tusk. For with this man, is the foundation of a much improved European community standing for Poland. What I am attempting to say is this: Let not speculation of others, lead your thinking with fear and non-sense. And look at the bright side, you guys are a half world apart from Europe. Charles |
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Bob S
European
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Post by Bob S on Aug 15, 2008 20:18:22 GMT -7
;D ;D Charles. I understand exactly what you are saying. Russia and most of the Eastern European countries still a bit dizzy and trying to get their balence back. It is sort of like waking in the morning and being a bit fuzzy until that first cup of coffee is drunk, the sleep wiped away before you are ready to greet a new day. OK I'll just wait until the dust settles and then see what happens. ;D |
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Post by kaima on Aug 15, 2008 23:52:27 GMT -7
OK Bob,
I will try to behave, read the posts and the icons that help show the meaning!
I am not pretending to have the answers, but am sick of politicians and their supporters who are real quick to inject out military into any shooting match that can be fabricated.
Supporting our troops does not mean we have to send them into constant combat. Supporting them means using them carefully, as the valuable and expensive resource they are.
IF we can't get our politicians to balance the budget or pay down our debt, I would like to see them run us broke more slowly by restricting the demands they put on the military. With our exhausted and broken military, how can we effectively take action in Georgia, right on Russia's doorstep? We can't - unless we nuke someone.
I was a bit put out (could you tell?) by the diversions of dragging France and Poland into the hypothetical complications or comparisons. I saw the mention of France as a deliberate obfuscation - deliberately obscuring the real issue at hand - what is best for the USA?
Kai
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nathanael
Cosmopolitan
: “Die Wahrheit macht frei und ist das Fundament der Einheit (John Paul II)
Posts: 636
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Post by nathanael on Aug 16, 2008 4:39:36 GMT -7
There is an interesting article today in the Washington Post, titled "Russia's ominous new doctrine?" by Strobe Talbott. It speaks of today's Russia-West relations and it is worth reading. It speaks about what Putin was, and about what Putin has become. It speaks of zapadnichestvo, which Putin used to say it "is part of Russia's ambitions." I think, however, that the zapadnichestvo, which Putin so craftily implanted in the mind of Strobe Talbott has always been an oxymoron. Russia has always been an entity unto itself! Still, I grant that Talbott makes a lot of sense. Russia is a masterful chess player, and the West appears to have been checkmated by its own medicine! By the way, for those who may be wondering what zapadnichestvo means, it is a neologism for "Westernness" or a "tendency to tilt toward the West."
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Bob S
European
Rainbow Bear
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Post by Bob S on Aug 16, 2008 7:16:58 GMT -7
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nathanael
Cosmopolitan
: “Die Wahrheit macht frei und ist das Fundament der Einheit (John Paul II)
Posts: 636
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Post by nathanael on Aug 16, 2008 8:55:06 GMT -7
So, this is where the mellifluous "Ophrah" smiles of Ms. Condoleezza Rice, Sen. Obama, and President Sarcozy are getting the West into. I don't like this "new style of leadership"! The Time correspondent, Tony Karon, makes a good point apropos: "Putin has used the opportunity presented by Saakashvili to show Russia's neighbors that Washington's tough talk could not be matched by any meaningful response to the Kremlin's military campaign." That's probably what happened, and it shows that the Russian vodka-spiced Kremlin minds are tougher than the new leadership style the West has been mustering! If true, the West is for a very rude awakening! America's foreign diplomacy is in shambles! Incidentally, I do not agree that "Saakashwili attacked Russia, first"! I do not condone what he did: it was stupid! But there is a difference between Russia attacking the sovereign and independent Georgia, and President Saakashvili sending troops to restore the constitutional order on his own territory! Let's not mix apples and oranges! Whoever is unable to see this difference, should stop asking Pakistan for restoring order on its Afghan border!
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The question to be asked is: Where is the rest of the world and what happened to them? Oh yeh! the French already surrendered several days ago, and, the rest of the world is busy cleaning their dupas. Shades of the 1930's; didn't we go through this before? What were the famous words that were spoken then? "Peace In Our Time", "Not One Drop Of French Blood For Danzig". History raises it's head again.
Kai.