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Post by Jaga on Nov 9, 2008 22:09:35 GMT -7
In the US this is quite common. This is what happened when 8-years old knew how to use a riffle: www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=74827§ionid=35102038-year-old charged with murder in US Sun, 09 Nov 2008 13:40:27 GMT The house in which the 8-year-old killed his father and a tenant An 8-year-old boy from Arizona has been charged with killing his father and another man, sending shockwaves through American society. “It was such a tragedy," said the boy's defense attorney, Benjamin Brewer. "You have two people dead; you have an 8-year-old in jail. It tugs at the heartstrings. It's a shocker, no doubt about it.” The boy has been charged with the premeditated murder of his father, Vincent Romero, 29, and Timothy Romans, 39. In the meantime, a judge has ordered that the boy undergo a psychological evaluation. Under Arizona law, charges can be filed against anyone 8 years old or older and Police Chief Melnick has insisted this is reasonable in the current case. According to the police chief, the child did not act on the 'spur of the moment' but he refused to disclose details about a possible motive. Melnick confirmed that police are looking into the possibility that the child may have been abused. Defense attorney Mike Piccarreta, who is not involved in the case, said each case must be considered on its own merits, but it would be hard for him to comprehend how an 8-year-old has the mental capacity to understand the act of murder and its implications. It has come to light Vincent Romero consulted Reverend John Paul Sauter, a Roman Catholic priest, about whether to allow his 8 year old son to handle guns. Romero told the priest that he had taught his son how to use a rifle because he was from a family of enthusiastic hunters and didn't want his boy to be afraid of guns.
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Mary
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Post by Mary on Nov 9, 2008 22:17:36 GMT -7
Jaga, This is of course tragic. As I understand there could have been abuse perpertrated on the child by the adults. Guns are not the problem as I see it. A few years ago there was a case locally where a 12 year old boy set fire to his home, killing the father and mother, but only after getting his siblings out. the father was a drunkard and abused them all, and the mother refused to protect the children. Tragic.....all the way around.... Sometimes a child has to resort to survival when no one will help them.
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Post by kaima on Nov 10, 2008 10:13:59 GMT -7
Guns and children. This could turn into a long thread if everyone vents, but I suspect it is not a big theme on this forum. I grew up in a household without guns, but our father started hunting with us when my brother and I were mid to upper teens. It seemed a way of bonding and activity he could adapt to share time with us and give us guidance at the same time. His hunting as a child consisted of trapping song birds in Europe after WW I so he would have something to eat. Times must have been real tough!
I remember quite well considering right from wrong when I was 8 years old and deciding I quite well knew the difference, even if I didn't know all the details of sex and other adult things. The family and the church had done their job. So I don't buy into all of the 'child didn't know' stuff.
I was a member of NRA for 15 years but quit when I got bored with the constant 'they are taking away our guns!' emergency - and the constant emergency is still going on decades later. I have a young cousin stocking up on guns today with a fear of what Obama will do with gun control. I have more than an adequate collection of rifles and pistols and a gleam in the eye when I see another beautiful machine for shooting, but know I don't need to own them all.
I see - guess, as I can't fully trust news reports - this case as the wrong boy, mentally unbalanced, and the gun as the weapon of opportunity. Without the gun, the murder may well have never taken place. If the boy were sufficiently unbalanced, a kitchen knife would have done as well, or matches as Mary pointed out.
What lies behind it all we will never know. God help them all.
Kai
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Post by tex on Nov 10, 2008 10:30:37 GMT -7
Hi Jaga,
Hope you are doing well, I couldn't resist giving my opinion on this one. ;D
Yes, that is what happened when a certain 8 year old knew how to use a rifle, but it is not an indictment of all 8 year olds who know how to shoot. I, along with my 8 siblings all learned to shoot at an early age. I think my Dad taught me to shoot when I was 6 or 7. But my parents and my religious upbringing also taught me right from wrong.
I grew up in a house full of guns and we used them for hunting, killing livestock and even target practice on a regular basis. My Dad was smart, he never kept a loaded gun in the house, but he made sure all of us kids knew where the bullets were in case we needed them. And he also made sure we knew the difference between toys and guns. I raised my son the same way and I'm sure he will raise his son the same.
My dad was a strict disciplinarian and there were many times in my childhood when I thought he was a mean old man. But no matter how mad I got at him, the thought of shooting him never once crossed my mind. I remember lots of hot headed young men in my neighborhood who had access to their parents guns. They'd beat each other half to death over an argument, but never once did I ever hear of anyone getting shot.
Yes, it is a sad case no matter the reason for the shooting. Blame it on the lack of discipline, blame it on the culture of death in our country, blame it on a changing society or whatever, but it is not realistic to blame it on the firearm or the knowledge of how to shoot a gun.
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Mary
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Post by Mary on Nov 10, 2008 10:47:56 GMT -7
It certainly is sad to know that there are children out there that should be enjoying their youth, and instead have such problems that they would resort to such extreme violence.
As far as guns in my area; hunting is a big deal here. The first day of buck season all the schools are closed because few attend. They are out hunting with family. My brothers and their children all hunted with Dad up until he was unable to any longer. Big, big, bonding time!
All the children in the school district here, before age 12 are required to take a hunters safety (book) course. This is done in the schools with trained people from the PA Game Commission. Parents can opt out their child if they are against hunting, but even those not intending to hunt are encouraged to take the course. It builds respect for the use of guns. They must pass the course to get a license. And must be accompanied by an adult relative to hunt until they are 16. Then they must be with someone over 21 until age 18.
There are a lot of precautions taken and most parents are responsible people raising responsible children.
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Post by redneck on Nov 10, 2008 12:33:38 GMT -7
Jaga, Not without one of these.
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Bob S
European
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Post by Bob S on Nov 11, 2008 21:36:14 GMT -7
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Post by archivist on Dec 7, 2008 14:42:44 GMT -7
I sympathise with the the dilemma that all Americans have now (including gun lovers); I have grown up in a country with very tough gun laws and have never felt the need to own or use a gun. I couldn't get excited over shooting at baked clay discs or paper targets and most of our national species are protected so there is no easy way to hunt except on the grouse moors but that's a rich man's sport where the guns cost more than I earn in a year and a day's shooting costs a month's salary.
You are unlikely to need guns to repel an invasion from Mexico or Canada and it has been at least a century since your internal wars with the Native Americans so it is difficult for Europeans to understand why you need guns. But of course the right to bear arms is inbuilt in your Constitution and every person in the free world feels the need to fight against freedoms being taken away.
In this country there has been a huge upsurge in gun crime and most of the victims are teenagers. This is largely among rival black gangs and mostly drug related. Please don't scream RACIST at me; its not a racist comment, but simply a statement of fact. Like many others in this country, I don't want to see our kids having gunfights in the street no matter what their ethnic origin. Every local Police authority now has armed response teams and our airports are guarded with cops carrying Heckler & Koch sub-machine guns to combat terrorism.
The world has gone mad (gun mad) - even just 30 years ago it would be unthinkable to see armed Police on our streets. Too many guns, too easy to get them; it's a recipe for disaster. When the Police carry guns the criminals follow suit; it's a vicious circle.
I don't have all the answers but I have plenty of questions and they all point to the need for gun control. Control not abolition. Surely it is not beyond the ability of America's legislators to come up with a way to control who can legally own guns. As in every other country, not every American Citizen is psychologically stable enough to be trusted with guns. But PLEASE not 8 year old kids.
Sorry if I have just triggered (no pun intended - it's not a joking matter) World War 3
Neville
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Post by redneck on Dec 7, 2008 16:30:25 GMT -7
Addressing the causes of crime is a social solution. Carrying a gun is an individual solution. They are not mutually exclusive. The difference is, if somebody is intending on doing you bodily harm, you aren't going to pull a social solution out of your pocket to put an immediate stop to him.
Owning a firearm is simply taking responsibility for your own protection and using the most efficient tool to do so
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Post by redneck on Dec 7, 2008 18:29:23 GMT -7
You have an immigration/smuggling/drug problem in your country. I am also aware of the knifing problem. If I am not mistaken, you've banned katanas and knives over a certain lenth also. How is that working? Neville, why do you insist upon remaining powerless in your own country?
I'm reminded of the senator who came home and caught his wife making love to an immigrant on the sofa. He immediately returned to congress and introduced a bill to ban sofas!
Tim
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Post by redneck on Dec 7, 2008 21:05:00 GMT -7
Sorry old chap, but you've wandered down the wrong lane on this one. Write all the laws you please, it won't change a thing. The only thing that deters crime is fear. In the U.S. ~ 40 states have concealed carry gun laws, crime drops 30% overnight in states that have these laws.
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Mary
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Post by Mary on Dec 7, 2008 21:14:31 GMT -7
Tim, I can't read the sign. (blame it on age) Can you please post what it says? Thanks
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Mary
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Post by Mary on Dec 7, 2008 21:21:27 GMT -7
This is the sport end of the controversy. Dec. 1st was the opening day of rifle deer season in PA. My oldest son got a huge 10 point buck! We believe in "kill it - grill it" in PA.
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Post by redneck on Dec 7, 2008 21:38:09 GMT -7
If its brown.....Its down!!!
Good looking buck.
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Post by redneck on Dec 7, 2008 22:44:57 GMT -7
Picture is fixed. Had some photobucket setting issues.
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