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Post by bescheid on May 10, 2006 11:17:33 GMT -7
IMO JFK was assassinated in part because he didn't want to share power with CIA. Carl[/quote]
I actually would not tend to believe that this would be the situation. It is very true, the Kennedy brothers were very keen on covert operations and secrecy. Also very keen on the prominent use of CIA resources and a covert operations (ie Laos).
But, the use of assassination against an US President and US Attorney General as allegedly responsibility of the Agency, would be a very irresponsible allegation.
Both the Kennedy brothers had swords to sharpen against the Castro regime, and with the attempted use of Mafia resources as a means to clutter up the paper trail, it would tend to be a back fire situation.
Charles
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Post by sciwriter on May 10, 2006 12:13:28 GMT -7
Charles, Iran coup is one example. Carl
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Post by sciwriter on May 10, 2006 12:13:45 GMT -7
Guys, AIPAC (Israeli lobby) tries to obtain USA support for Israel on foreign policy issues. However, since Israel has limited human resources (small Israeli and global Jewish populations) and natural resources (no oil production), how does AIPAC succeed? Why doesn’t the opposition to AIPAC in USA succeed? Carl
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Post by sciwriter on May 10, 2006 12:25:02 GMT -7
Charles, JFK tried to fire CIA officials after Bay of Pigs fiasco. And JFK & RFK solved the Cuban missile crisis diplomatically, not militarily. I'm suggesting that some military industrial complex guys ordered some CIA guys to assassinate the Kennedy brothers. Carl
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Post by bescheid on May 10, 2006 15:34:34 GMT -7
Carl
This is becoming dangerous, I do not believe it would be of benefit to continue upon this direction of travel.
Both Kennedy's are dead, Mr Castro is alive.
Charles
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piwo
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Post by piwo on May 10, 2006 15:47:10 GMT -7
Charles, JFK tried to fire CIA officials after Bay of Pigs fiasco. And JFK & RFK solved the Cuban missile crisis diplomatically, not militarily. I'm suggesting that some military industrial complex guys ordered some CIA guys to assassinate the Kennedy brothers. Carl I have no idea why either Kennedy was assassinated and my post didn't attempt to explain that. I only discussed one of JFK's (not John Fitzgerald Kerry LOL) known forays into assassination of world leader by OKing the assassination of Ngo Dinh Diem with Vietnamese generals. What goes around comes around I guess. Carl, As to your JFK and RFK solving Cuban Missile Crisis diplomatically, I'd rather not call sending a naval blockade of a sovereign country in a game of "chicken" necessary diplomatic. Gun-boat diplomatic maybe, but one of the largest gambles of the century. Why did it succeed: because JFK learned from HIS errors in the Bay of Pigs. Yes, HIS errors. Intelligence is just data: what you do with it is what the president gets paid for. If you believe what you have said, then you MUST give President Bush the same leeway with WMD: remember, it was just bad intelligence, right? History will not be so kind to GWB and neither should they to JFK for Bay of Pigs. He and his staff made grievous errors, and the term "group think" is synonymous with his decision to launch an absolutely preposterous invasion. Post Bay of Pigs, each and every man on his staff was questioned about their opinions and feelings and their private memo's reviewed on the operation, and not a single person was confident of success. Yet, when sitting in front of the big guy, JFK (who wanted desperately to overthrow Castro), they followed what they perceived to be his desires, and only presented the most optimistic of possibilities. When the Cuban missile crisis occurred, it is said that he "dressed down" his staff with language never before or since used in the Oval office, demanding 100% truthful opinion on the plan and it's chances of success or world destruction (the world was 1 minute to midnight during the crisis, the closest it ever got). Based on honest appraisal by the staff, a plan was put into place. That is why Cuban Missile crisis was successful, and Bay of pigs unsuccessful. Both were gambles, but one was done from honest and professional opinion, and one was done out of "service to one's master". Imperial Japan and Germany know all too well the latter's folly, and so did JFK, his brother and JFK's staff. I think Bobby had Marylin Monroe killed, so when the Union bosses had him bumped off, well, like his brother: what goes around comes around. (of course that's just someone's theory, but I happen to like Marylin so I'll go with it  ) Regards, John |
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Post by Jaga on May 11, 2006 8:49:54 GMT -7
Piwo, do you hate Kennedy because he was a democrat? I am puzzled why there is so much talk about Kennedy family always in spite of the fact that John Kennedy was the only president. We had already two Bushes presidents and a potential third and there is much less talk about Bush family ; Anyways, it seems that you specifically imply only democrats as bad. I do not care whether Eisenchover was democrat or republican but he was the one who started covert operations abroad and there were the ugly ones! He helped overturn democratic government of Iran, Dulles - also helped prepared Guatemala mess (overturning their decent government for Am. Fruit Company), many innocent people died under one pretext of course - communism! |
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Post by hollister on May 11, 2006 12:07:04 GMT -7
Something to think about ---
One of the Germans here at CENTCOM asked Wayne today if it was true that the US was considering putting a military person in charge of the CIA? He then asked if it was true that if this happened all three main branches of intelligence gathering would be under military control. When his suspicions were confirmed his response was telling "You know we have had some experience with such a structure - we found out that it doesn't work too well."
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Post by jimpres on May 11, 2006 12:31:06 GMT -7
I have seen it work with a military leader as long as he had a strong civilian XO.
Jim
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Post by sciwriter on May 11, 2006 13:33:42 GMT -7
It didn't work for Hitler. Canaris was a Soviet agent.
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Post by bescheid on May 11, 2006 14:28:55 GMT -7
Carl
For why would you say, Canaris was a Soviet spy? I was just wonder..
Canaris was for Germany, not just to work under Adolf Hitler. It is true that under the direction of Canaris, information was leaked to the allied command from the Abwehr office. Just as an effort to shorten the war. Rather underhanded I would only suppose. But, it was an effort to at least try and save Germany from assured destruction.
I have not a url of this, but, an apparent order was given by Adolf Hitler for the secret to be kept of the intentions of Joseph Stalin to begin purges of the soviet military.
But, this would not in self make Canaris a Soviet spy.
Charles
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piwo
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Post by piwo on May 11, 2006 18:11:42 GMT -7
Piwo, do you hate Kennedy because he was a democrat? I am puzzled why there is so much talk about Kennedy family always in spite of the fact that John Kennedy was the only president. We had already two Bushes presidents and a potential third and there is much less talk about Bush family ; Anyways, it seems that you specifically imply only democrats as bad. We have a slang here Jaga for your technique: that's the pot calling the kettle black! I've voted for Democrats, republicans and indpendants.. I bet many here are strait democrat lever pullers here! Your posts are so vehemently one sided and often hateful that you fail to even fathom the possibility that a liberal or a democrat could do ANYTHING wrong. On the contrary, I said in my post that history will not be kind to GWB for his WMD reason to attack Iraq, and JFK shouldn't' be given a free ride either. Both made bad decisions, blaming bad intelligence. I extended an "olive branch" so as not to be one sided. I'd rather call that a balanced view, but I guess any potential negative by a democrat is reason for persecution here. Sad. You spoil for a fight when one isn't there. What part of my spin on the historical events do you disagree with? Carl's post suggested that Bay of pigs was fault of CIA and Cuban Missile crisis was a Kennedy triumph of diplomacy. Neither is accurate I believe, it's just the liberal spin on events. Cuban Missile crisis was a triumph, but not of diplomacy. Drawing a line in the sand with your guns drawn and daring the other side to cross it: do you call that the diplomatic solution? The world came perilously close to confrontation between antagonists bent on the destruction of each other. I did give JFK snaps for learning from his mistakes and putting in a plan based on professionalism, and not from ego or blind subservience. He gambled, we won, and Russia was never so embarrassed for their weakness in their history. Once again, the "olive branch", but you must skip over those sections. It turned out to be the absolute catalyst of the arms race and race to control the world's thinking by each side. But it was still a triumph. CIA info was bad for JFK and GWB, yet you and this forum persecute GWB resolutely about it and apparently not so Kennedy. Who's being combative? If you go back and look at my posts, I have NEVER started an antagonistic thread against anyone or any party. You cannot say that of yourself. Your negative and derogatory threads fuel and play to the audience you want: the polar bear in a snowdrift. Just like Kennedy in Bay of Pigs. Search my posts. When confronted with ill spirited, derogatory or flippant criticism, I merely reply like a parrot to the other side, and it sets you and a few others on fire. It's OK for you to do this, just no one else to respond in like manner. I'm the mirror Jaga: if you don't like what you see, then choose your words more carefully before you post and decide if someone said something arrogantly spiteful or accusative about someone or something you believed in, or just the opposite of what you said, would you be upset and give them the exactly the same? Of course, you could just ban me from the forum, and everyone can go back to winking at themselves, just like JFK's cabinet in Bay of Pigs No room for dissenting opinion, or even civility with disagreement. Gotta go right for the throat, and no one better disagree with you! BTW - don't hate Kennedy at all. JFK gave his backing to have a sovereign leader, at the time, an ALLY, MURDERED. He himself was murdered 20 days later. A tumultuous time for America, but historically, "as ye so, so shall you reap". Someone did to him what he had just consented to. Is that hateful, or just history?? Bobby Kennedy didn't get a chance to do much of anything, but is linked to the death of Marylin Monroe. There's more then just a little circumstantial evidence, but my was merely a joke. Ted Kennedy of course killed a girl by negligence and like a coward ran away. And one of the nephews killed someone on the compound by shooting them "accidentally of course", but hey, some families just have bad luck. I understand there are untouchables in our society, and the Kennedy's are one such family. It's just life, and I never once posted anything hateful about any of them: I just recounted history. |
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Post by sciwriter on May 11, 2006 20:39:05 GMT -7
Charles, Canaris' family originated in Smolensk, Russia and extended to Canary Islands.. A relative of Canaris from Canary Islands told me he was a Soviet spy and often sent info. to Britain. Carl
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Post by sciwriter on May 11, 2006 21:01:16 GMT -7
Piwo, IMO the focus on JFX is based on his charisma and romantic appeal of his dynasty which resembled a monarchy.
Guys, If the Mafia wanted to kill JFK, they could have waited until he was no longer President. I think a power elite who JFK resisted in making immediate domestic and foreign policy decisions killed him. Castro made a deal with this elite, e.g., his regime distributes drugs, and also nickel from Russian-built nickel refinery in Cuba at low cost globally including to USA via Canada. This elite killed RFK later to prevent him from seeking revenge. My opinions. Carl
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Post by bescheid on May 12, 2006 9:34:26 GMT -7
Carl
Thank you for your information. It would be interesting to talk with the Canaris family member, and as you say, from one of the Canary Islands.
His (Wilhelm Canaris)(Kanaris) grand father, Constantin Kanaris is from The island of Psara (Aegean See) and descended the family as people of the sea. Welhelm Canaris was born in Germany, Alplerbeck Westphalia. Full name: Wilhelm Franz von Canaris.
(the full information is in German and at present, I just do not have the patience to transfer into english, sorry)
Charles
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