pieter
Thank you for your very frank and honest reply. In truth, I had counted on this whilst posting. For I do consider the risk of alienation of the many good people on this forum for it is a Polish forum and meant for friendly exchange, fun, experiences and information. For this purpose, I do try {but not always succeed} in post of information and ideas that are for common benefit.
What you have brought forth, is a very valid concern, and understandable. As one member has previously stated {at moment, it escapes my memory of the member}, in short, one of the largest problem that is of Poland, is {it is situated between The Russian Federation, and Federal Germany}.As you have also rightly forwarded, my opinions and view points are that of German {in this case, that also of German American}, but, these ideas and proposals, are primarily that of Pan European.
Today, is not yesterday, the past of wars, is a history that will always be what it is, history. But, it will not be history, if people make it a reality, that is a real and present endangerment.The new generation that never knew the war, are the products of today, for them, our future is in them. For it is always the people that make up what ever nation that it is.
Our problem of today, is old thinking. The adults remember every thing of their experiences, but, they have learnt, nothing. They only remember. They keep the old prejudices alive, they tie them selves to a living stake, and call it tradition. Those typen of people are unfortunately still in power in many governments. Those are the people that are the drags on progress. And it is progress that is the engine of a modern economy.
Certainly, there will always be differences, for if only two people are on this earth, some where, they will meet, and create differences in opinions and expectations, it is a natural form of diffusion of irritations before they become inflammatory into violence. {Cain and Abel were not able to do that}. That is why there are courts {both domestic and international}.
As a person, what little I know of Poland {as have never had the opportunity to have visited} I perceive no problem. It is a modern nation that is going through some realignments, but, this is normal in adjustments. As a person, it is my belief that the people are strong,and as Poland is made up of Polish People, then it stands to reason, the country is and will be strong, for there is always a way.
In as much to my personable stand. Will, I am neither brave, nor am I a coward, I do not know, as I have never been tested in a combat, for never were in the military. There were opportunities of an early death, but, circumstances staid me for a little longer. That and my absolute resolve to survival with much luck.
Some day {not for a while} I will tell of my few weeks on two Russian ships as a little fellow. I still carry a bent little finger from being cut off whilst playing in a compressor room {the finger was picked up by the ship surgeon and reattached-they did not use anesthetic, and that hurt}
And also yes, I live in the US. Remember of some remarks I make of this {it always pays to be on the winning side} for if we as people find our selves on the wrong side,it is up to us to insure that this is only a temporary situation. But then, we are not always the master of our situation. For I learnt of this from the mistakes of my elders early on.
Some day I may not find it beneficial to continue to live as such here, and perhaps to Germany, but for now, who cares.
Just thoughts and a few rambles on
Charles
Charles,
I knew reading your reply that you had counted on my reflection afterwards.
A good discussion benefits from antithesis. I have found out about Poles, first that there is not one Polish standpoint, secondly that Modern Poles can have criticizm of Poland, and thirdly that they are intertested in differant views (American, German, Russian and Western-European). Don't be afread of alienation, because fear is a bad guide in good discussions, debates and etc. I have a very interesting e-mail correspondence with a Dutch male who has a Polish wife and who lives 50-50 in Poland and the Nehterlands,
and he is very critical towards Poland and the Netherlands out of his own pragamatic experiance. He has many Polish friends, but he can have ruthless or tough standpoints
about them, because he is a frank and honest guy, who likes honest people.
He said tro me that Poles have it difficult to discuss with Dutch people, because we are direct to the point, and Poles are not used to that. That was an eye opener for me.
He also said that a lot of Poles play theater, and that you do not have to fall in that trap,
from the other side he is fond of Poland, Poles and especially Polish women (he does not like Dutch women). He is a great source of information for me, because he speaks Polish,
has Polish television on whole day (he says that that is a good Polish traditon), reads Polish and speaks Polish. (He has Polish roots too, his grandmother).
The exchange does not always have to be friendly, but the form and ethical rule says that you have to be polite and respectful. And we are. Fun, experiences and information,
can exist next to fierce debate, exploring knowledge, putting in innovative things (learning something from oneanother, and taking notice of "oponents" or "dissident" views to your own opinions). I will say you this I sometimes learned more from people I did not agree with than with people I do 100% agree with, because that other opinion
demands from you that you think about your own position and formulate your own ideas more clearly. I see for instance differance between my West-European view and the Polish view here all the time, and that why it is so interesting here for me.
My understandable valid concern comes from the fact that I am both Dutch and attached or concerned about Poland (because my Polish roots). Yes, one of the largest problems of Poland, is that it is situated between The Russian Federation, and Federal Germany.
And I disagree with you that the past can play no role, because the past plays a role on all sides, Germany, Poland and Russia (and Ukraine for that matter).
In the same time you have to look at the economical, financial and geopolitical situation of today, but from a internal political, defense and legal point ofg view you must prepared
for future changes. I say something crazy, a future example; We are in 2020, the economical situation is very bad. India and China have created huge benefitial markets,
the Korea's are united in one Capitalist, Democratic state with a huge market, and East Asia is the biggest market in the world, China, Taiwan, Japan, Korea, Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia and Veitnam form the Asian Union, the biggest market in the world.
That East-asian market cooperates with India (huge market and production to), and developped large parts of Africa, where the Asians earn a lot of money too. The Americans have the third largest market. The Americans have abandoned the European continent, because the people are less educated, wages were to high, and people work less hard than in Asia. All American European headquarters, companies and production is transfered to Shanghai, Seoul, Bombay and Hanoi. Great-Britain and the Visgrad countries are the only prosporous countries in Europe, next to Georgia, and the new economies of Rumania and Bulgaria. From strategic interest America is military present
in the Visgrad countries, Rumania, Bulgaria, Georgia and the Caucacus.
In the European Union 60 million people are unemployed, the unemployment in Germany has risesen to one third of the European unemployment 20 million,
the far right parties DVU and Republikäner have merged with the NPD, and the NPD
attrackts people from Left and right. The rightwing of CDU-CSU has moved to the NPD,
and half of the traditional Links-partei (PDS, former SED mitglieder) memmbers, voters and militants have formed the Leftwing of the NPD, and everybody in Western Europe (including the Moderate Germans from left and right) are shocked that even SPD politicians and members have found their way to the NPD. On the streets in Berlin, Hamburg and München large streetbattles ( Strassen Schlachten) are going on between Neo-nazis and Left-radicals. The Turks have founded their selfdefense militia,
and made coalitions with other foreigners and German groups. And so next to the intergerman fighting there are big clashes between German and foreign militia's.
The Weimar republik has returned on a larger scale, because a civial war has broken
out. Moderate Germans flee to, Great Britain, America, Israel, Poland, South-Africa,
Australia, New Sealand and Southern-America.
A German braindrain is the result, German scientists, professionals, artists, writers,
professors and students leave Germany en mass. They don't want to live in a terror
state.
The Reichstag in Berlin is burnt down again, next to the party headquarters of the democratic parties, which were stormed and looted. The German Nationale Widerstand
has got support from far right activists from all over the world. Dutch, Flamish, French,
British, American, Scandinavian and Russian comrades have come to Germany to help the National revolution. The NPD becomes a well organised party with party militia, and a lot of members in the German Police and the Bundeswehr (you have policemen and officers and soldiers everywhere who are attracted to the idea of a Police state) joyn the National revolution. Etnic cleansed regions are called National befreite Zonen
(
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_befreite_Zone ).
Horst Mahler is the new Goebbels, Gerhard Frey is the new Göring, NPD-Chef Udo Voigt
der neue Führer, and Thorsten Heise (
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorsten_Heise )
a merging of Himmler and Röhm. The NPD manages to occupy government buildings,
control the police and army, Bundesgrenzschutz, and dismantles the Bundes Nachrichten Dienst. In other European countries, Peoples Nationalist parties have gained power too,
and so in Holland, Belgium, France, Scandinavia, Austria and Italy fascists rule too.
Foreigners lost the battle, because their left allies were to weak becaus of the poverty,
huge unemployment unde the authentic populations, and existing xenophobia, Islamophobia and racism. Ethnic minorities from Africa, Noth-Africa, the Middle east
and the rest of the world flee from Europe, which becomes ethnic pure agian.
The far right regimes begin sensorship, prohibit Left parties and movements, limit art and culture, by the way that only Social-realistic art is permitted, which portray the healthy lives of Caucacian citizens, workers, farmers and especially heroic soldiers, policemen and party members.
Suddenly the NPD Reichsführung (of das Viertes Reich) begin to talk about the Oder-Neisse grenze, and the German minority in Poland. Secret negociations have been going on between German and Russian functionairies for quite a while. IN Russia; there is mass unemployement too, and Chauvinist Communists, Reactionairy Monarchists and Russian (fascist) Nationalist groups, have formed a Unity movement, which got the support of the Red Army and FSB (the present KGB). Both the German and Russian rulers are irritated about Poland, anti-American, and Poland is the closest American allie, and has American bases. They dislike the other Visgrad countries too, but see Poland as their main target,
because they want shared boarders, to unite the German and Russian national camps.
The Germans and Russians attack, because they don't want a strong and independant
Poland, which stands in their way, and they want the Americans out of their border regions. Present day this is a rediculous example, but you never knows how the Economical conjuncture will be in 10 years in Europe, what political developments
will have taken place, and how populations, movements, politicians, and companies will
have developped themselves?
Again there is nothing wrong with opinions and view points of a German {in this case, that also of German American}, because these views are respected by the Dutch, Poles,
Russians, Americans and Brits. Everyboday knows that Germany has contributed a lot to the European civilization, and also to the European Unity and so integration.
Good Poles will not forget that Germany stood for the Polish membership and that Germans have invested a lot in the Polish economy, therefor helping the Polish economy grow, and in the same time serving their own intrests.
It is good to hear that your ideas and proposals, are primarily that of Pan European.
Yes, today, is not yesterday, the past of wars, is a history that will always be what it is, history, but we have to learn the lessons of history. And especially Germans are aware of that history and learnt from that. They see that the Third Reich had harmed their image in Europe for many decades, that they were pariahs in the first decades after the war,
and see that they are respected, honoured and liked again by many nations today
(including it;s neigbours, the Netherlands, Poland, Belgium, France, but also by such states like Israel, America, Russia, England, Italy and Turekey).
History is and will be history, because people live in the reality of today. The present generation does not think about the history as I or other Forummembers do, they live by today, tomorrow and the future! The new generation is the product of today, as you say,
our Human capital, and therefor yes, our future is in them.
My belief and hope is that good people will make and rule every nation.
Maybe that is a messianic, idealistic, Utopian view, wich comes close to the Bibles
Kingdom of God, when justic finally will rule the earth.
But as you probably know I am a secular-Catholic, and after the experiance of mankind
so far, unfortunately, I do not trust my fellow man enough to see the positive changes
in the near future. Europe always has had a cycle of war and peace, and so it would
not suprise me that another war would occur in the 21th century.
Maybe I am stuck to that old thinking. I don't agree with you in your judegement of adults memory. Adults have worthy life experiences, and they have learnt a great deal,
they know more than these empty spoiled (MTV) kids of today, and this hollow materialist teenagers and yuppies. They have worthy, memories and experiance, and often they are milder, more humane and sincere than this egocentric, heartless new gernerations, who have learnt to think only about themselves (and to forget their parents and grandparents). In Europe many old people have come over their old prejudices (for instance my father gave up his hatred for Germany and Germans, he has absolutely nothing against Germany. My parents worry more about Poland than germany to say it frankly, and me too). Olf people developed themselves in the 20th century and replaced the old tradition with an European idea. They were the first ones who travelled trough Europe, had vacation houses in other countries, appreciated other countries, learned about other cultures, married with other nationalities, and live in other countries
before or afte they retire. These old generation of the 20th century was the first international generation. They gave us wealth, prosperity, progression, health and good societies, and we should be thankful to them. I am!
Thankgod, that there will always be differences, because pluriformity and diversity in cultures are a great good. Look at your America and my Europe (Holland), I have known in my lifetime manyn nationalities, without having to travel.
Now I am reacting to you I have to think what to say and how to react, and that is the
benefit of our exchange. Please keep your German point of view, and see my reaction
as the variety we have in European visions. A Polish one, a German one, a Dutch one,
a Czech one, an English one, a Hungarian one, a French one, a Slovak one and etc.
Pieter