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Post by Jaga on May 9, 2010 9:17:14 GMT -7
Hi Eric, +++Did you know... Kaliningrad was offered to the Lithuanian SSR when it became Soviet territory. However, the head of Lithuania at that time didn't want the task of rebuilding the destroyed province, so Lithuania never took in this land.+++ I did not know that Soviets gave Kalibingrad to Lithuania after they destroyed it and after they took Lithuania as Soviet Province... Not sure we should think about it as a generous gesture from Soviets
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Post by Eric on May 9, 2010 10:21:34 GMT -7
Well, Lithuania was technically a republic in the Soviet Union since 1940, but was under Nazi occupation from 1941-1945. Anyway, because of geographic reasons, Kaliningrad was offered to Lithuania, but, as I said, Lithuania refused because they had their own republic to rebuild after the devastations of war, and they didn't want to have to be responsible for extra territory. So, it ultimately became Russian territory by default - no one else wanted it!
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Post by tuftabis on May 9, 2010 12:04:48 GMT -7
Germany after WWII was to keep Stettin/Szczecin and Poland was to come back to Koenigsberg/Królewiec (now Kaliningrad). But Stalin insisted an ice-free port in the Baltic Sea is important for Soviet Russia, so Germany lost also Szczecin, while Sovier Russia got the unfreezing port. It is shame. Koenigsberg/Królewiec (now Kaliningrad) was a pearl of culture and science (Albertina university!!!, the second university in Polish Commonwealth/Rzeczpospolita Polska). Would it become part of Poland , it would be at least to some extent rebuilt and preserved till liberty in 1989, not totally torn down as the Soviets did. Just as Wrocław and Szczecin were rebuilt and are now a part of EU. The history went the other way though. But the history is not over.
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Post by tuftabis on May 9, 2010 12:11:21 GMT -7
Lithuanians did not want Koeningsberg because they didn't want some one million Russian speaking 'real soviet people' (nastoyashchiy sovietskiy cheloviek) in their tiny and already ethinically diluted, occupied country.
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Post by Eric on May 9, 2010 13:56:05 GMT -7
And Russia still has over 100 nationalities living in it. What's your point? ONLY Lithuanians should be allowed to live in Lithuania? That pretty much violates EU rules, and all three of the Baltic countries have gotten in trouble for their treatment of minorities, including Russians.
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Post by Jaga on May 9, 2010 14:11:44 GMT -7
Well, Lithuania was technically a republic in the Soviet Union since 1940, but was under Nazi occupation from 1941-1945. Anyway, because of geographic reasons, Kaliningrad was offered to Lithuania, but, as I said, Lithuania refused because they had their own republic to rebuild after the devastations of war, and they didn't want to have to be responsible for extra territory. So, it ultimately became Russian territory by default - no one else wanted it! Lithuania was not free in this time. It is like giving a house to a person who has a death sentence. Why would you worry about a house if you think you are not going to live there
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Post by Eric on May 9, 2010 15:12:47 GMT -7
Lithuania was going to go to either the Germans or the Soviet Union, and both countries battled over the territory. Would Nazi Germany have been a better host?
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Post by Jaga on May 9, 2010 20:03:44 GMT -7
Lithuania was going to go to either the Germans or the Soviet Union, and both countries battled over the territory. Would Nazi Germany have been a better host? Hi Eric, you are right. Soviets were the same bad as Germans and the vice-versa. Still. if you know that somebody will get killed, you do not need to kill him (her) in advance.
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Post by Eric on May 9, 2010 21:08:30 GMT -7
No... that's not what I said.
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Post by tuftabis on May 10, 2010 9:28:37 GMT -7
And Russia still has over 100 nationalities living in it. What's your point? ONLY Lithuanians should be allowed to live in Lithuania? That pretty much violates EU rules, and all three of the Baltic countries have gotten in trouble for their treatment of minorities, including Russians. Eric, there was no EU at that time. There was a defeated, armless Germany, the USSR, captive Lithuania, occupied Poland. And there was Joseph Stalin, who fooled Roosvelt and Churchil like kids. Lithuanians were not subject but object of politics then. You are right about the spoils of war. But a really wise leader, a leader that really wants the good for his people, never, ever takes more than he can swallow. That's what Stalin did, and Russia got choked. Also, note the difference between the two countries which I beleive are close to your heart - Soviet Russia and USA. The US have used German science ans NAZI scientists for their benefit, Russia under Stalin has intentionally destroyed the remnants of Albertina University library. The British bombers did not destroy single and every book.
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Post by kaima on May 10, 2010 14:56:33 GMT -7
I am in Whitehorse,Yukon territory and in communication courtesy of the Public Library.
East Prussia(kaliningrad) was Prussian before the Germans came in and won over / killed / absorbed the Old Prussians, and the settlement probably had a name similar to the Lithuanian Karaliaučius before it became known as Koenigberg or Kaliningrad.
All three of the Baltic Republics regained their independence in 1918/1920 and were free until the Soviets and Germans started to fight over the territories and the Soviets declared them unwilling Republics in the Soviet Union. Until the fall of the SU the Estonians were not allowed to talk about the 1940 Soviet bombing of Tallin; it was blamed on the Nazis.
They are small countries and it is quite understandable why they don't like their Big Neighbor. Russkies particularly, but Poles as well, they both want to dominate and absorb them.
I also can't blame the Lithuanians for not wanting the northern half of former East Prussia. They explained it to me as nothing but future trouble if they had accepted it, however tempting it might have been to re-establish it as part of a Baltic Republic again. Yes, and receiving that many more Russians into Lithuania would have further diluted Lithuania's claims as a free and generally ethnically based Independent Republic.
I remember the shock I had as i drove to Kaliningrad in 1993 and passed through what used to be Isterberg, the second biggest city in East Prussia. It was reduced, even then, to fallow fields of former settlement, and was then just a typical shabby socialistic town with no sign of ist former status.
So I believe the Lithuanians are happy to be rid of the dominance of both Poles and Russians.
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Post by tuftabis on May 11, 2010 0:27:46 GMT -7
I am in Whitehorse,Yukon territory and in communication courtesy of the Public Library. East Prussia(kaliningrad) was Prussian before the Germans came in and won over / killed / absorbed the Old Prussians, and the settlement probably had a name similar to the Lithuanian Karaliaučius before it became known as Koenigberg or Kaliningrad. All three of the Baltic Republics regained their independence in 1918/1920 and were free until the Soviets and Germans started to fight over the territories and the Soviets declared them unwilling Republics in the Soviet Union. Until the fall of the SU the Estonians were not allowed to talk about the 1940 Soviet bombing of Tallin; it was blamed on the Nazis. They are small countries and it is quite understandable why they don't like their Big Neighbor. Russkies particularly, but Poles as well, they both want to dominate and absorb them. I also can't blame the Lithuanians for not wanting the northern half of former East Prussia. They explained it to me as nothing but future trouble if they had accepted it, however tempting it might have been to re-establish it as part of a Baltic Republic again. Yes, and receiving that many more Russians into Lithuania would have further diluted Lithuania's claims as a free and generally ethnically based Independent Republic. I remember the shock I had as i drove to Kaliningrad in 1993 and passed through what used to be Isterberg, the second biggest city in East Prussia. It was reduced, even then, to fallow fields of former settlement, and was then just a typical shabby socialistic town with no sign of ist former status. So I believe the Lithuanians are happy to be rid of the dominance of both Poles and Russians. This is generally very well said. However, when it comes to naming the events which back the notion that Poland wants to dominate Lithuania, usually there's a long and heavy silence in my happy talks with some of my collegues of Lithuania. The bone of contention is the intewar period, and the differing interpretations of taking Vilnius by force by Polish forces. This happened even earlier that WWII, the major event, which was already followed by many reconcilaitons of former 'lethal enemies'. Which Poland and Lithuania never were. On the contrary they have jointly dominated 1/4 of Europe in the past. On the other side - of course there'd be always some minor misunderstandings even in modern, present times, typical for the relation of a big and small neighbour. The case of Slovakia and Poland is another example. Or Germany and some of it's nieghbours smaller in size. BTW, I have noticed something interesting. By the twist of fortune, you are, Kai-the-traveller ;D very well acquainted with the vision of history, the whole mindset and sensbility of at least three of Polish neighbours, one equal to Poland in size and the two much smaller. They naturally differ from Poland's, nothing wrong are unusual about that. Especially ince you a rational and neutral mind owner this does not make your opinions biased, but certainly Poland does not have , yet!, that little warm place in your heart as the counties you lived, worked in, etc. have. like Slovakia, Germany or Lithuania. I do hope you will come to Poland one day, so we could earn some special points in your heart too, Kai! ;D ;D
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Post by Eric on May 11, 2010 8:38:58 GMT -7
If it weren't for the Soviet Union, which made Vilnius a Lithuanian city (and the capital) again, the Wilno today would still be a Polish city. Maybe Poland wants to hear that, but Lithuania doesn't.
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Post by Jaga on May 11, 2010 10:47:37 GMT -7
If it weren't for the Soviet Union, which made Vilnius a Lithuanian city (and the capital) again, the Wilno today would still be a Polish city. Maybe Poland wants to hear that, but Lithuania doesn't. This is like saying - if not Hitler Poland would not have Wroclaw (Breslau) and Stettin and all the west part of Poland would still belong to Germany, Thank you Hitler )
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Post by Eric on May 11, 2010 11:29:16 GMT -7
This is like saying - if not Hitler Poland would not have Wroclaw (Breslau) and Stettin and all the west part of Poland would still belong to Germany, Thank you Hitler ) No, you have to say thank you to Stalin! He decided that this border change would remain permanent.
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