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Post by pieter on Oct 23, 2010 14:59:40 GMT -7
I liked the song "over de muur" of the Dutch band Klein orkest - (Little orchestra - Over the Wall), due to it's content and it was just an emotional or sentimental song.
It was a single of them which was released in june 1984 and it reached number 10 in the Dutch top 40. I think it should have been number 1.
Translation: "over de muur"
Over the Wall
East-Berlin, Unter den Linden Some People walk along flags and standards Lenin and Marx stil have their statue there And everybody works, Hammers and sickles While in goose-step the Guards are Changed 40 years socialism, a lot has been achieved in that time
But what's that ideal state when it's surrounded by walls? If you must handle your opinion fearfully and carefully But what's that ideal state Tell me what is it worth Being labeled crazy if you are differant
And only the birds fly from East- to West-Berlin Aren't called back, nor get they shot Over the wall, over the Iron Curtain Because they sometimes in the West, sometimes also want to be in the East Because they sometimes in the West, sometimes also want to be in the East
West-Berlin, the Kurfuerstendamm People walk along porno- en peepshow Mercedes and Cola stil have their statue there And the neonadds who tease wit their glitter Come dance, come eat, come drinking, come gambling That's 40 years of freedom a lot has been achieved in that time
But what is this freedom presently without a house, without a job That many Turks in Kreuzberg who can hardly exist Well! You are allowed to demonstrate, but with your back against the wall And only with money the freedom is affordable
And the birds fly from West- to East-Berlin Aren't called back, nor get they shot Over the wall, over the Iron Curtain Because they sometimes in the East, sometimes also want to be in the West Because there is lying bread at the Gedaechtniskirche, sometimes at the Alexandersquare...
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Post by Eric on Oct 23, 2010 16:19:19 GMT -7
I was sceptical at first, but those are actually very good lyrics!
Both the capitalist and socialist systems have some good things to offer, and some bad things to offer. It also depends on the country. Some capitalist countries are successful, some are failures. Some socialist countries were successful, some were failures. (Virtually all of them ended up destroyed in the end, but for many more reasons than just "the failure of socialism," which actually wasn't a reason in the first place... except, interestingly enough, maybe in Poland!)
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Post by pieter on Oct 23, 2010 19:03:24 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Dec 21, 2011 8:56:45 GMT -7
I was sceptical at first, but those are actually very good lyrics! Both the capitalist and socialist systems have some good things to offer, and some bad things to offer. It also depends on the country. Some capitalist countries are successful, some are failures. Some socialist countries were successful, some were failures. (Virtually all of them ended up destroyed in the end, but for many more reasons than just "the failure of socialism," which actually wasn't a reason in the first place... except, interestingly enough, maybe in Poland!) Eric, In my personal view there never was a perfect or real socialist or capitalist state or system, because there are always mixes of the two. In America for instance the state subsidies for agriculture are socialist in my view and supported by the republicans. The communist states never were true Marxist states, because socialism was never reached, in the sense of workers selfrule of companies, capital and thus propperty. In the SovjetUnion Stalin learnt the lessons of the Czarist system and Gulach and became a sort of National-Communist czar like leader. The real socialists were opressed in Poland ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Socialist_Party and en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Jewish_Labour_Bund_in_Lithuania,_Poland_and_Russia and en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Jewish_Labour_Bund_in_Poland ) and Russia ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menshevism , en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerensky ). Pure Capitalism would be a total free marktet, a libertarian system with a survival of the fittes, a neo-liberal shystem. Maybe the purest form of Capitalism existed under the Pinochet regime in Chile, because the Capitalist ideas of the Chicago school of economics of Friedrich Hayek and Milton Freedman were put to practice there. Cheers, Pieter
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Post by sciwriter on Dec 21, 2011 9:43:53 GMT -7
Guys, Solidarity labor union in 1980's helped end oppression but not economic problems in Poland. In USA today, the economy is in a mess. What type of system will minimize economic problems?
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Post by pieter on Dec 21, 2011 16:46:39 GMT -7
Sciwriter, in my opinion a moderate form of Capitalism with a parlaimentarian democratic system, because the West has proven to be more succesful than the East-Block Sovjet system and the other rightwing, leftwing and theocratic totalitarian regimes in the world.
I think if the USA and the EU will be reformed, monopolies will be broken, smaller and middle big entreprises get a chance next to the big ones we might have a chance to recover. Today and in the future "Human Capital", Research and Development, innovation, new energy sources, new economical models, a more advance internet and social media and a merger of the old (Fossil fuel) based economies and technoligies will be merged with the new economies and energy sources (Hydrogen, solar energy, wind energy and biotechnology). Our cities, towns, villages, regions and countries will completely change. Food will be produced in Green cities with garden and agriculture roofs and agricultural lands in the middle of the city next to our buildings, roads, highways, bridges, rivers, railways and parks. Technology, science and new ways of thinking will also change our education, healthcare, political, social-cultural system and community life. Work and private lives will be more integrated and the gap between the rural and urbanistic area's will be less big as today.
My fear is that we may face challanges we did not expect to happen at such a scale as it might occur. I mean things like large scale terrorism in the form of Nuclear terrorism, bio terrorism, Urban guerrilla warfare, civil wars in city forms like territorial ethno-religious-cultural conflicts, class war (in the sense when an ongoing economical crisis would creat a long lasting huge gap between the rich and the poor in the West, in the sense that there would exist slums or townships in Western cities - a Detroit-isation of for instance New York, Chicago, Pensylvania, Amsterdam, Berlin and Brussels). Everybody looks at the Middle-east for terror threats, but what if in the West new forms of totalitarian and extremists ideologies come to existence. You could think of a merger of former Neo-Nazi/fascist ideologies with Communism, technocratic forms of radicalism and cell structures. A new radical form of anti-society and system movement in a 21th century form, not connected to the former radical left, extreme right or fundamentalist Islamist terrorism of the seventees, eightees, nintees and early this century. Carl, in a innovative, moderate and sensable form of Capitalism economical experiments and mergers of forms are possible. In contrast with what the Americans/North Americans think I believe there are some good elements of socialism in the Western-European form. Social democracy emancipated, educated, helped, transformed and reformed the European working classes. Via Social-democratic parties, Unions, cultural organisations, women organisations, youth movements and good governance, Dutch, Danish, Belgian, Swedish, Norwegian, French, Spanish, Portugese, Italian, Austrian and British Social-democrats (= Democratic Socialists) transformed and reformed their societies. Due to these movements, politics and policies the European working class of the 19th and 20th century transformed from low, *exploited, poor, uneducated and often unemployed people to Middle class and high class people. These people developped themselves via the Social democratic movements, peoples education, peoples press and the working class organisations and pillar.
I believe in a moderate capitalist society and economy with more space for small and middle big businesses, less rules and good regulations, smaller governments, and more regional authonomy (I am not fond of centralist power, to much Federal or national power. Regional power and local power works better. Democracy and economy to the people I would say). I am not fond of Marxism, socialism or conservative isolationalistic autarkic policies and systems. I believe in a good mix of the best elements of liberal and conservative ideas in the American context, and in libertarian cosmopolitism. Free trade, less protection, more free entreprise and less monopolies are good for our societies. Europe is differant than the USA, but on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean we had good Capitalist societies. The wrong thing was that there was to much concentration of economical power in huge corporations who controlled the market. There were no good mechanisms and tools to guide the markets and to have effective control on what was going on. We have to let the hedonism and decadence go and go back to basics and common sense. You can not spend what you do not have, and you do have to earn a living. Things will go back to normal, but that "normal" will be differant than the "reality" we knew. But we will get used to the new situation and adabt to it. Humanity needs change. Not Obama change, but REAL change, pragmatic change. We are going towards NEW TIME, and towards new ways of thinking, living and organising our lives and societies. Look at the new generations. The Digikids as we call them in the Netherlands. The children, teenagers and young adults who grew up with computers, mobile phones, internet and social media. It's like if these things are in their genes or dna. They handle these things quite natural, these are tools of their time, these are the kids of the New economy, of Nasdaq, of Google, Apple, Facebook, E-bay, Microsoft, MSM, LinkedIN, and the interneteconomy.
Cheers, Pieter
* Marxism came to existance due to the terrible working conditions of the impoverished working class in the 19th century Europe. A 19th century Marixst thinks as follows: In pre-capitalist economies, exploitation of the worker was achieved via physical coercion. In the capitalist mode of production, that result is more subtly achieved; because the worker does not own the means of production, he or she must voluntarily enter into an exploitive work relationship with a capitalist in order to earn the necessities of life. The worker's entry into such employment is voluntary in that he or she chooses which capitalist to work for. However, the worker must work or starve. Thus, exploitation is inevitable, and the "voluntary" nature of a worker participating in a capitalist society is illusory. Alienation denotes the estrangement of people from their humanity (German: Gattungswesen, “species-essence”, “species-being”), which is a systematic result of capitalism. Under capitalism, the fruits of production belong to the employers, who expropriate the surplus created by others, and so generate alienated labourers. Alienation objectively describes the worker’s situation in capitalism — his or her self-awareness of this condition is not prerequisite.
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Post by karl on Dec 21, 2011 16:57:35 GMT -7
Carl
You have asked, and what is that I may say of the Americans? for you have always had every thing, so, what is next?
For it is very well known. The Americans never walk, for they drive, even to the well fare office they drive....
For of this to say, what would we as Europeans have to answer?
Karl
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Post by pieter on Dec 21, 2011 17:02:31 GMT -7
Carl You have asked, and what is that I may say of the Americans? for you have always had every thing, so, what is next? For it is very well known. The Americans never walk, for they drive, even to the well fare office they drive.... For of this to say, what would we as Europeans have to answer? Karl Karl, What you mention here is true, like me you think like a North-West-European from a Rhineland economical model, parlaimentarian system. Maybe we Europeans walk and cycle more than the Americans. We use other means of transportation next to our cars. But the Americans also have more free space, more environment, more national parks than we do. America is less densly populated than Europe. The American maybe go to the Gym more than we do. Fitness and sports is very important in the American society. From the other side when you are in the USA it is reconisable for Europeans that Americans often are fatter than the average European. I don't talk about New York or LA, but about Middle America, the average American of the midwest. Yes, the USA is a very AUTOMOTIVE country. Ozzy’s Automotive in Bell Gardens, California.Cheers, Pieter
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Post by pieter on Dec 21, 2011 17:25:04 GMT -7
I was sceptical at first, but those are actually very good lyrics! Both the capitalist and socialist systems have some good things to offer, and some bad things to offer. It also depends on the country. Some capitalist countries are successful, some are failures. Some socialist countries were successful, some were failures. (Virtually all of them ended up destroyed in the end, but for many more reasons than just "the failure of socialism," which actually wasn't a reason in the first place... except, interestingly enough, maybe in Poland!) Eric, Without irony or scepticism, which socialist systems had some good things to offer? Which socialist countries were successful? What are the criteria or tools for being succesful or the judgement of succes? I know I am a obnoxious journalist sometimes. I look at these capitalist and socialist societies with the critical view of a TV (and former) radio journalist, who is independant from every political party, company or state. There are several mechanisms in which you can look at capitalist and socialist societies, economies and states. With a political view, with a scientific (technocratic, pragmatic) view, a layman civilian view (the voter), a philosophical view (the thinking member of the intelligentsia), as an economist, as a sociologist who looks at group dynamics and collective behavior of human beings, as research journalist, as an outsider - if you come for instance from an Islamic, Buddhist or Hindu country or animistic nation -without capitalism or socialism-. ( A monarchic Feudal society, a cultural religious society or a society like India, Nepal, Bhutan - a pure Buddhist state- or Thailand) Cheers, Pieter
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Post by karl on Dec 21, 2011 19:33:32 GMT -7
Carl You have asked, and what is that I may say of the Americans? for you have always had every thing, so, what is next? For it is very well known. The Americans never walk, for they drive, even to the well fare office they drive.... For of this to say, what would we as Europeans have to answer? Karl Karl, What you mention here is true, like me you think like a North-West-European from a Rhineland economical model, parlaimentarian system. Maybe we Europeans walk and cycle more than the Americans. We use other means of transportation next to our cars. But the Americans also have more free space, more environment, more national parks than we do. America is less densly populated than Europe. The American maybe go to the Gym more than we do. Fitness and sports is very important in the American society. From the other side when you are in the USA it is reconisable for Europeans that Americans often are fatter than the average European. I don't talk about New York or LA, but about Middle America, the average American of the midwest. Yes, the USA is a very AUTOMOTIVE country. Ozzy’s Automotive in Bell Gardens, California.Cheers, Pieter Pieter Yes, of course, you are so correct. And of this, I do thank you for correction. Some times, perhaps as of the day, we {I} do need of rest for to think and bring into focus what is currant and to what is correct. Perhaps as a person, I place far to much hot coals upon the brows of the Americans, and of this, I am at too much fault. Perhaps as a person, I expect overly too much, perhaps more so then needs be expected of a mortal person{s}. For this is not so good, people are as they should be, simply people. Karl
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Post by pieter on Sept 10, 2017 14:46:31 GMT -7
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