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Post by sciwriter on Dec 6, 2005 13:26:47 GMT -7
Jaga & Hollister. Thanks. Gardenmoma. Agreed on Kai. Carl
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george
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 568
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Post by george on Dec 6, 2005 18:40:23 GMT -7
I always wondered why John Paul wasn't in the Polish military at the outbreak of the war. I think he was 20 at the time which would have been prime drafting age. I never did read why. I would think that Poland had a draft certainly at that time. I just seems a healthy 20 year old would have been drafted during that time. Does anyone know?
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Post by kaima on Dec 6, 2005 22:28:53 GMT -7
Kai, You are a lucky and special person - three times! Also, very special to have the strength and stamina for the training that you do. Yes, and thanks for the well wishes from you and Carl! I have seen some interesting things in life, and catching the Pope (or rather having him catch me!) was not always on purpose, he came to me each time. The health and strength are a gift, and I have always been prevented at forming much arrogance by associating (again not always deliberately!) with people of more talent and more strength. It sure keeps life interesting! Kai
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Post by Jaga on Dec 7, 2005 19:20:17 GMT -7
Guys,
do you watch the second part of movie on CBS? I like it more and more
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Post by kaima on Dec 7, 2005 19:46:25 GMT -7
I still have to wait 3:45 if the movie starts at 9PM. So I may be the last on this forum to see the broadcast this time.
Kai
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nancy
European
Posts: 2,144
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Post by nancy on Dec 7, 2005 19:58:57 GMT -7
The CBS movie has just ended here on the East Coast. I think it was very powerful, I give it the highest marks.
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Post by gardenmoma on Dec 7, 2005 22:07:06 GMT -7
I also give the movie high marks As good as the first part was, this part was even more convincing the way the actor played the joy with the children and the suffering of the Parkinson's Disease. My Mom died recently from complications brought on by the P.D. and though 88 was nowhere near as bad as JP-II at his end. Not to be gross, but did you all notice - the deteriorating handwriting - the inability to hold on to a pen for long;
- the tracheotomy near the end - hence the difficulty in speaking;
- the hunched over back;
- the drooling when he did try to speak;
As he matured and grew older, his convictions became more defined and stronger. He was a great leader - a hero some would say - even when we did not agree with him. BTW - there is a DVD of this docudrama for sale from CBS.
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Post by gardenmoma on Dec 7, 2005 22:16:35 GMT -7
I always wondered why John Paul wasn't in the Polish military at the outbreak of the war. I think he was 20 at the time which would have been prime drafting age. I never did read why. I would think that Poland had a draft certainly at that time. I just seems a healthy 20 year old would have been drafted during that time. Does anyone know? Science Writer, That is a great question...I spent a few minutes this afternoon trying to look it up, but don't have many Polish history books. JP-II was 19-years-old when Germany invaded Poland - September, 1939. The country was still somewhat in turmoil after the death of Pilsudski. There was an army - standing or conscripts I can't determine - because they managed to hold off the Germans at Westerplatt and a few other places (?) believing help would arrive from England and France. Help never did arrive - the English and French sold the Poles down the river at this point. Shortly after JP-II went to work in a limestone (marble?) quarry so he would not have to be deported to Germany as a forced worker. Meanwhile, perhaps someone out there might know more than my bare outline
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george
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 568
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Post by george on Dec 8, 2005 18:39:53 GMT -7
2nd half was superb. 1st half was so so. John Voight did a fabulous job. he had his accent, gestures down to a tee. He even looked like him. Great job John!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by sciwriter on Dec 8, 2005 21:38:40 GMT -7
gardenmoma, also keep in mind That in 1939, both Nazi Germany and Soviet Union invaded Poland. Suicidal for Wotyla to organize resistance. And in 1944 the Soviet army sat on their a*ses while the Nazis slaughtered the Polish Home Army resistence fighters during the Warsaw uprising because the latter weren't Communist. Carl
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Post by gardenmoma on Dec 9, 2005 9:45:59 GMT -7
12/09
Science Writer,
I asked a reference librarian friend of mine to check on the conscription / standing army bit...so maybe she'll find something definitive.
Yes, I knew that Russia (the Soviets) also invaded from the East shortly after the Germans. It has been noted that they would not have if the British and French had responded to their agreement with the Poles.
My husband also reminded me that after WWI, Germany had been stripped of all military equipment, so everything they had built up by 1939 was the latest and the best. The British and French, as well as the Soviets did not up-to-the-minute equipment which probably caused the British and the French to renege on their treaty with the Poles.
Also, Wotyla was always, apparently more of a pacifist than anything else. He advocated, by his actions more than anything else, passive resistance. And to my way of thinking (and my shrewd husband agrees) was the consummate politician. His life and actions remind me of Gandhi without the fasting and loin cloth.
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Post by sciwriter on Dec 9, 2005 9:54:56 GMT -7
Gardenmoma: Agreed on Wotyla. Thanks
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Post by kaima on Dec 10, 2005 10:16:04 GMT -7
12/09 My husband also reminded me that after WWI, Germany had been stripped of all military equipment, so everything they had built up by 1939 was the latest and the best. This "latest and best" armament that you refer to is partially true, and largely image and legend. In the invasion of Poland the majority of Hitler's army was still horse-drawn. The "tanks" were mostly laughable by standards applied just a year or two later and could be assaulted with a shoulder borne rifle (of large calibre, admitedly). With all that, there is no doubt that the Germans were relatively better off in armamant in many ways. The fatal act most often overlooked was the treachery of turning Czechoslovakia over to the Germans at Munich in 1939. Along with the Czech Republic came the Skoda works, which was supposed to be an industrial arms asset almost equal to what all of Britain could manufacture. So what the Brits and French turned over to Germany they ended up gfighting just a year or so later! No, I am not too deep into war, so do not ask for backup, I will not do the research to find quotations to support all of these statements. If you are interested you must do the homework yourself. Kai
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Post by sciwriter on Dec 10, 2005 10:58:08 GMT -7
Kai, agreed on Munich. Then after WW2 Soviet Union seized Skoda works, and threw Benes out of a window Carl
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george
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 568
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Post by george on Dec 11, 2005 11:29:35 GMT -7
I searched high and low on the internet but found no reference to John Pauls military record. However, i believe reading Tad Sulcz's book on the Pope ( Man of the Century ) that said that he did serve at one time in a sort of a Polish version of ROTC. Why he was not activated during that time i think might be a refection of Polands unpreparedness to WW 2 . However, that being said i believe John Paul did what he thought best during the war. I don't think he was a Rambo type to begin with. He was a intellectual which explains his deep association and friendships with many of his Jewish friends.I beleive he saw many of his Jewish friends being taken away during the war, he knew what was going happen to them. There is no record of John Paul forging documents to save Jews or any military type efforts to get them out of harms way. I think that was the reason for him embracing the Jewish community later in life when he became Pope. I think there was a least some guilt on his part. Justified or not. Believe me, this is not to be critical of Karol Woytyla. I think he did what most people did dring that time. Which was to stay alive. Helping Jews or participating in underground activities could have gotten you shot quickly during that period. And of course you have to consider if he did take risky behaviours during the war, he probably would not be Pope in the furture.
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