Does the US nee stricter gun laws?

[Jaga]

There is a cultural difference between the US and Europeans. Americans thruly believe in their 2nd commandment rights, Europeans and others (non-Americans) are surprised. ;D

Here is an interesting article from Aljazeera

Does the US need stricter gun control laws?
www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestoryamericas/2012/07/2012721115259194262.html


Not again - that was the cry of many Americans when they turned on their morning news on Friday.

At least 12 people were killed and dozens wounded when a man wearing a gas mask and body armour opened fire and tossed a tear gas cannister into a cinema auditorium in the town of Aurora in Colorado. People were watching a midnight showing of the latest Batman movie, The Dark Night Rises.

For many Americans the right to bear arms is regarded as an essential freedom protected by the second amendment of the constitution. Politicians have been reluctant even to call for tougher gun control laws. But in a country where nearly 9,000 were murdered with guns in 2010, could that be about to change?

Does the US need tough gun control laws?

Inside Story Americas, with presenter Anand Naidoo, is joined by guests: Colin Goddard, who survived the Virginia Tech shooting in 2007 and works for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence; Hubert Williams, the president of the Police Foundation who also chairs the National Law Enforcement Partnership to prevent gun violence; and Alan Gottlieb, the founder of the Second Amendent Foundation who argues for the rights of Americans to bear arms.

"Soothing words are nice, but maybe it's time that the two people who want to be president of the United States stand up and say what they're going to do about it. Because this is obviously a problem across the country, and everybody always says "isn't it tragic" and we look for the guy .... There are so many murders with guns every day. It's just got to stop. And instead of the two people - President Obama and Governor Romney - talking in broad things about how they want to make the world a better place ... okay. Tell us how. This is a real problem. No matter where you stand on the second amendment, no matter where you stand on guns, we have a right to hear from both of them - concretely, not just in general, specifically - what are they going to do about guns? In the end, it is really the leadership at the national level, which is whoever is going to be president of the United States, starting next January 1, what are they going to do about guns?"

Michael Bloomberg, the mayor of New York

[justjohn]

[Jaga]

John,

interesting. It gives a different perspective.

[karl]

Jaga

I think perhaps you are very correct in cultural difference between Europeans and Americans in as far as Gun right ownership.

As a person, I have no explanation for this difference other then our tendency to violence as with our various of time, governments with endless wars, which in self is a license to kill by federal decree.

With the Americans, I am not sure, but people being people, we all seem to have that gene of violence in our collective behavour.

But to say: as a right, is the right to own a fire arm is exceptional in the area of rights. Not to say it is wrong, or to say it is correct, but to say it is a constitutional right, is perhaps a bit of question.

But then, America is a bit {large} question of contradictions. For one, each state {of the Union of states} is sovereign with a standing military and provision of issuing and collecting taxes. In this stance, to then voluntarily belong as a union to a central government of Federal. In much as such, little different to ours in consideration of ours do not raise and maintain a standing military.

If though, the American common good require the needs of a personal weapon, then so may it be. For the crooks would not wish to face such a situation whilst in process of robbing a house whole.

Personally, I hold little to ownership of a weapon. It is a tool of my work and if required, to carry it. The most I am afraid of in this area is very vile poisonous reptiles and disease bearing fruits, vegetables and meat. Of these, I do avoid at the various street venderships even though, my arm and butt has had a great many punctures from needles as a guard against these various micro organisms.

Karl

[pieter]

I voted yes, but ofcourse I am a Western-European. I think like the Dutch eight 'o clock news said, in America (the USA) stricter gun laws will never succeed, because in our opinion the majoritity of the US citizens is pro gun ownership. The Dutch America correspondent of the news said: "I heard Americans say, people kill people, guns don't". In the same news the reporter said from Colorado said, Obama nor Romney will dare to support or demand stricter gun laws. Non of the two said anything about it. Only Bloomberg dared to speak out. But ofcourse he comes from the liberal, secular and progressive New York. And New York isn't mainstream America.

[kaima]

I won't vote because there is no "other" category for opinion or vote.

I think we should expand our other freedoms to match our freedom with guns. We should scale airport security and ship port security radically back to stlll be pretty effective and yet allow up to enjoy our traditional freedom to travel without restriction. We should also scrap the unconstitutional laws banning out travel where ever we wish to travel We were once Free Americans and we should behave as if we still are. Freedom is not free, and 3000 lives a year is not too high a price to pay for our freedoms. We paid that price once in 2001 and, led by that Coward Bush, gave up our freedoms in the name of security. We also sacrificed the lives of our soldiers in both needless and necessary (but poorly led and neglected) wars that bankrupted this country.

We as a nation are too cowardly to accept the true cost of freedom. We are not even willing to to PAY for our freedom, but rather prefer to patriotically "go out and shop" to support the war rather than pay even a small portion of the war to demonstrate our support and our responsibility.

We would rather arbitrarily restrict voter access to the poles than invest in a system that confirms our citizens are the legitimately qualified people they have been since birth or citizenship. Freedom is not free, but we are not willing to pay for a system that maximizes the voting opportunities for our citizens. Instead we are following unsubstantiated, general accusations of "voter fraud" as we followed the hollow lies of "weapons of mass destruction" while never questioning the validity of these accusations.

Freedom is not free, and looking at our record, we do not deserve the freedoms we retain today. We quickly gave up a major part of our freedoms in 2002 out of anxiety for a single attack instead of standing up bravely to the challenge.

We are a nation of cowards and deserve the losses of freedom that we are enduring.

the Terrorists have won.

* * * *

PS We also are following the strong lead of our Ajatolahs and passing laws invading the bodies of our women in our nation. Rather than stand on Individual rights and responsibilities that have made this nation strong, we are allowing them to pass laws dictating person's private choices and life. Next thing you know we will insist that all people be forced to buy medical insurance, instead of just requiring it of our senior citizens.

We are a nation of meddlers and cowards. The Greatness is lost.

[Jaga]

Karl,

I agree that America is a country of contradictions. The states have lots of freedom, maybe it is good. It is good that America's system is different from European, so things are tested differently here and there.

But, why we spend so much money to find foreign terrorists if half of the crimes, which involve los of people (not only Columbine but Oklahoma City) are done by local people, not involved with Muslim extremists.

When there is a domestic act of terror we just pray and there is no solution to the problem. When there is an international act, it is promised that the crime will be repaid (evil for evil).....

[Jaga]

Pieter,

Bloomberg is a big city mayor. Guns and big cities do not match even in America.....It is not as like there were chickens or deers walking on the streets of New York waiting to be killed

[Jaga]

Kai,

I see lots of thought/analysis, energy and some anger in your messages.
I think that the airport security reached its high point 4-5 years ago when after the shoe bomber we could not bring anything to the plane. Happily, it moderated a bit. Even conservatists are against it since it disrupt their freedom.

Europeans are laughing that 18 years old man can posess a gun but cannot drink....

[karl]

Jul 22, 2012 21:41:19 GMT -7 Jaga said:

Karl,

I agree that America is a country of contradictions. The states have lots of freedom, maybe it is good. It is good that America's system is different from European, so things are tested differently here and there.

But, why we spend so much money to find foreign terrorists if half of the crimes, which involve los of people (not only Columbine but Oklahoma City) are done by local people, not involved with Muslim extremists.

When there is a domestic act of terror we just pray and there is no solution to the problem. When there is an international act, it is promised that the crime will be repaid (evil for evil).....

Jaga

Your points of concern are very valid, real and present. But, how to address this issue of domestic terror when the subject person is an unknown as not in the system.

It is as hunting in the jungle, the hunter must have some idea what the prey looks like, to identify, track, and capture or kill.

Whilst on the other side of the Roman coin, the proper surveillance would have detected the person of concern as being not a customer. But armed with visible weapons and wearing non-standard clothing not commensurate with theatre attending.

In the USA, there are more then enough Federal Departments of internal/external security investigation with associated systems of surveillance systems. To this end, to ensure the safety and protection to the common good, in as well to the intended purpose of creation, as below will indicate:

United States

United States Intelligence Community
Office of the Director of National Intelligence
Independent Agencies Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)

United States Department of Defense Air Force Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance Agency (AF ISR)
Air Force Office of Special Investigations
Army Counterintelligence
Army Criminal Investigation Command (Army CID)
Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA)
Marine Corps Intelligence Activity [4]
Intelligence and Security Command (United States Army) [5]
National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA)
National Reconnaissance Office (NRO)
National Security Agency (NSA)
Naval Criminal Investigative Service (NCIS)
Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI)

United States Department of Energy Office of Intelligence and Counterintelligence

United States Department of Homeland Security United States Secret Service
Coast Guard Intelligence [6]
Office of Intelligence and Analysis
Coast Guard Investigative Service

United States Department of Justice Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), Directorate of Intelligence
Drug Enforcement Administration, Office of National Security Intelligence (DEA)

United States Department of State Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR)

United States Department of the Treasury Office of Terrorism and Financial

Karl

[pieter]

Back to Bloomberg:
edition.cnn.com/2012/07/23/world/americas/analysis-colorado-shooting-mann/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

[kaima]

What I did not address in the earlier posting was my opinion, and to speak as the owner of more than a dozen guns, I do believe in tighter gun controls. Decades ago I was a member of the NRA but quit them after the gun nut whackos took over the organization and changed it from a gun owner's association of sportsmen and users to a political action group.

I don't see much need for full auto weapons or assault rifles except for the joy of going out and popping a lot of caps in a hurry. My most extreme fun with that was during M14 training and live fire. We had so many rounds we had to shoot as we advanced in a woods, so I chose a tree and tried to shoot it down. I am sure it died, but it failed to fall over from my damage.

America is extreme and we will not change. The time to bring about change, if there were to be tighter laws, was in the aftermath of Ronny Regan getting shot, but I don't remember that being seriously discussed. Rather it was limited to the"Brady Bills" named after his press secretary who took a shot to the forehead resulting in brain damage.

So the slaughter will continue. That is the will of the people.

Back at the start of the Second Iraqi War I was buying into the propaganda of "force multipliers" and "black helicopters" and high tech surveillance being so effective they have made the home weapon obsolete.

The Iraqi Patriot has changed my mind and silenced the arrogance of the US military. Of course, having competent politicians get us into the war and manage the aftermath would have written a different history and we could still be living with our old delusions of "force multipliers". They were quite effective in the war. If Bush had in place a plan for the peace and sent in competent managers and politicians instead of setting up a Faith Based government (does your faith in an Evangelical God guide you, as it does Us? Good, go forth and set up a government where we dissassembled the old one, removed the armed forces and police, and sent all of these trained troops home to brood in unemployment and dissatisfaction."

Go forth and shoot, my fellow citizen!

[Jaga]

Kai,

I agree:
I don't see much need for full auto weapons or assault rifles except for the joy of going out and popping a lot of caps in a hurry.+++

The CNN host Piers Morgan had an interesting discussion about it but... he is a Brit.
I believe that if these tragic accidents will be going even America will change its stance towards guns, especially semi-automatic weapons.

www.mediaite.com/tv/piers-morgan-and-alan-dershowitz-get-in-heated-argument-with-anti-gun-control-advocate/

[Jaga]

I saw a very interesting article in WashingtonPost:

as a society, have decided this state of affairs is acceptable, that the occasional murderous rampage is the price we pay for . . . for what? For freedom? For the Second Amendment? For campaign contributions from the National Rifle Association?

...
An unstable person can walk into a gun shop and buy a weapon designed for deadly combat. No meaningful questions asked. Have a nice day, Mr. Joker.

This is crazy. Minimal gun control — such as prohibiting assault weapons — wouldn’t eliminate these massacres, but it would prevent some and mitigate others. Lives would be saved. Congress should pass an assault weapons ban this morning and the president should sign it tonight.

Right. Dream on. Instead, we’ll argue endlessly about whether we should focus on the man or the gun, and the effect will be to focus on neither. The next James Holmes is out there, so is his instrument of murder, and we will do nothing to keep them apart.

www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/eugene-robinson-mass-shootings-are-a-tragedy-we-dont-want-to-avert/2012/07/23/gJQAghsI5W_story.html?tid=pm_pop

[Jaga]

Here is another twist, allegedly the weapons used by the gunman was Austrian. I am not sure that it is important, still....

For all the tut-tutting across the pond, America’s gun culture exists in symbiosis with Europe’s own culture of precision manufacturing — of which the Glock is a notable expression.

Thirty years ago, Gaston Glock designed this lightweight, rapid-fire killing machine and sold 20,000 to Austria’s army.

Now his state-supported invention is one of Austria’s most successful exports. The tiny alpine nation exported 431,118 handguns to the United States in 2010, according to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Only giant Brazil sold more.

www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/charles-lane-europes-role-in-us-gun-culture/2012/07/23/gJQAS8lI5W_story.html?tid=pm_opinions_pop

Glock’s customers have apparently included not only Holmes but also Jared Lee Loughner, charged in the January 2011 Tucson massacre that left six dead and then-Rep. Gabrielle Giffords among the severely injured — as well as the shooters in the 2007 Virginia Tech massacre (32 murdered), a 1999 Honolulu shooting (seven murdered), a 1998 Oregon high school shooting (four murdered), a 1998 Connecticut shooting (four murdered) and the 1991 Killeen, Tex., massacre (23 murdered).

You might call Glock the favorite weapon of America’s Amoklaeufer, as those who run amok with guns are known in German.

But that wouldn’t be fair to the makers of the Walther P22 that Virginia Tech shooter Seung Hui Cho also carried, or the Sig Sauer P232 that Steven Kazmierczak bore while killing five people at Northern Illinois University in 2008