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Post by pieter on Feb 18, 2013 12:15:44 GMT -7
Kai, +++A new Polish-Lithuanian union would have been interesting, but I doubt the Lithuanians wanted to give up Russian domination for Polish domination.+++ I think Vilnius should stay Lithuanian. Nobody with common sense opposes it. But Lithuanian see Polish-Lithuanian Kingdom as Polish occupation in spite of the fact that they had a king Jagiello. Lithuanians were also not angels, they occupied huge part of Belarus. Lithuanians - these tall and blond people were a minority in their huge kindgom, therefore they needed Poland to protect their boarders. For the most time Lithuania was bigger than Poland and the main language of Lithuanian empire was Belarussian. Jaga, I agree with you and in the same time I say Lviv should stay Ukrainian ( Lwów is the past), Belarussian Hrodna (the former Polish Grodno) should stay Belarussian, and Wrocław should stay Polish (Wrocław is the former German city Breslau), and Szczecin should stay Szczecin, and not become the German city Stettin again. History has changed borders and as a result of that the names of cities and the ethnicity of the peoples of those cities. Cheers, Pieter
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Post by pieter on Feb 18, 2013 18:21:08 GMT -7
Pieter Although Kresy/Vilnius is out side my vest sphere of interest, but, not out side my appreciation of the effort, work, application of technical expertise and interest you have placed in your presentation... Please accept my thank you...For I have found your work much interesting thusly have followed it through... I was though, some what saddened with reference to the area of Christiana {Copenhagen} For that was the area we lost my older cousin upon her disappearance. Karl Karl, I am sorry and excuse me for my actions since I should have know this fact due to our mutual contact. I am very sorry for this an have decided to remove that reverence. That place was not the best memory of my visit to Copenhagen. Not bad but not very special either. I never liked commune like collectivist settlements. That is just my personal thing. I am so sorry that this part of the Danish capital has caused you so much suffering. Also, because of your Danish half. I wished you had better memories about Copenhagen. Cheers, Pieter
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Post by pieter on Feb 18, 2013 18:30:17 GMT -7
Pieter, beautiful pictures. This picture on the river in Vilnius reminded me that when we were there it was awfully hot, so got that we could barely walk..... with Ela and my Polish friend. Jaga, You made some wonderful images of Vilnius (Wilno) back then. Can you show them again, or are they stil somewhere on this Forum, in the General archive or in the Polish archive (in the case you made a Wilno topic of that). I remember that the topic was related to your stay and teaching " English" in Vilnius. Cheers, Pieter
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Post by karl on Feb 19, 2013 11:09:15 GMT -7
Pieter
Thank you for your thoughtfulness and sensitivity. It was not my intention in the manner of reply to insinuate a unhappiness in the mention of Copenhagen. For it would be unfair to others with interest in that portion of your presentation, but thank you all the same for your consideration..
Yes, it would have provided some closure in knowing or at the least, to locate Anikka and she was well. Between Adriana, my self we did our best. One consolation was if she had been murdered, the police would have known by their records. Our only conclusion was she wished not to be found and made a life of her own away from family for what ever her reasons..
Karl
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Post by pieter on Feb 19, 2013 16:29:31 GMT -7
Dear Kaima (Ron),
On the other Polish Forum, I started the same Kresy thread and told them about your opinion about Vilnius/Wilno, because it was an interesting and important contribution from your side to this subject in this thread. Tufta had an interesting explenation for your standpoint as a Slovakian-American, who spend half a year in Vilnius, here it comes:
"I have been to Wilno and liked the city very much. Poles, Belarusians, Ukrainians and Lithuanians have a great common past behind, they have formed a unique, democratic, liberal state (comparatively to European 'norm' at that time) which ruled over some one fifth of Europe and provided her 'Eastern flank' stability for some 400 years. Unfortunately Ukrainians were not treated as a full-rights member in this state, and that btw was one of the reasons of it's spectacular failure. Please note that when I mention those different nationalities and their unique Europe-wide rights, nationalities as we understand this word today, I am talking about 'haves' or nobility. The peasants of that time, though the most numerous were not 'citizens' and had no rights, which were regulated and reserved for szlachta. Making a simplification - it is somewhat the same as when we talk about Ancient Rome and the Roman Empire, we mean 'haves', the citizens, not the 'non-haves', slaves etc. Having that in mind no nobles of Rzeczpospolita, apart from Malorusian (in today's meaning: Ukrainian) had a reason to complain, regardless their ethnic background, they had all the rights and representations. Peasants - yes, very much so, had reasons to complain as they were not free. Today's Lithuania is a nation formed from the peasants of Litwa, they are still learning to appreciate their great past as represented by Lithuanian noblemen -szlachta-. Somewhat similar situation is with Slovakia - they are the nation formed from Slavic peasants of Slovakia- a region of Hungarian Kingdom. Brave and different but just one of many minorities of Hungary. Thus a natural, fully understandable sympathy between the two [Kaima's sympathy for the Lithuanians]. Coming back to your question - yes I have been to Wilno and several times. Talked with Poles and Lithuanians. I can say that the latter are now on the express path to overcome past complexes, and become proud of our common past, to accept the historical past as past, both wrong and good. One sign of this overcoming, considering the tensions of last two-three years, is the apology by Lithuanian foreign affairs minister while visiting Poland a few days back, for some devaiations to the accepted rules of neighbourhood agreed in Polish-Lithuanian treaty from the year 1994. I remember all that was reported in the forum by Bo, Kresy too. I teh future of Poland and Lithuania, future of Lithuanian Vilnius, very brightly - inside EU or even outside EU if you guys inside the Eurozone won't at last come with the solution to the crisis Lithuanian Vilnius of today is as unique a city as Wroclaw, former German city of Breslau, where common, mixed history is very much palpable, beating. Even more so in Vilnius, as many Poles still live there, and around they city. What is done with this beat is totally to us - contemporary people. I am an optimist."
It is an interesting thesis to state that today's Lithuania is a nation formed from the peasants of Litwa, and that they are still learning to appreciate their great past as represented by Lithuanian noblemen -szlachta. And that Slovak woud feel connected to Lithuanians, because Slovakia, was a nation from Slavic peasants. That created the natural bond, and mutual affaction between the Slovaks and Lithuanians.
Cheers, Pieter
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