|
Post by Jaga on May 6, 2013 22:56:45 GMT -7
Washington Post posted an interesting article trying to find the most archaic words.... unfortunately I do not see too many similarities with Polish, but Polish was changing a lot through the ages. For instance the most basic word for a "home" or "house"" changed to "dom" which is of Latin origin, although different words were used 500 years ago in Polish.www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/linguists-identify-15000-year-old-ultraconserved-words/2013/05/06/a02e3a14-b427-11e2-9a98-4be1688d7d84_story.htmlYou, hear me! Give this fire to that old man. Pull the black worm off the bark and give it to the mother. And no spitting in the ashes! It’s an odd little speech. But if you went back 15,000 years and spoke these words to hunter-gatherers in Asia in any one of hundreds of modern languages, there is a chance they would understand at least some of what you were saying. A team of researchers has come up with a list of two dozen “ultraconserved words” that have survived 150 centuries. It includes some predictable entries: “mother,” “not,” “what,” “to hear” and “man.” It also contains surprises: “to flow,” “ashes” and “worm.” The existence of the long-lived words suggests there was a “proto-Eurasiatic” language that was the common ancestor to about 700 contemporary languages that are the native tongues of more than half the world’s people.
|
|
|
Post by Jaga on May 6, 2013 22:58:19 GMT -7
The only Polish words which still fit these core words would be:
matka (mother) nie (not) co (what) Polish "co" soucs like "tsou" mezec, mezczyzna (man)
|
|
|
Post by kaima on May 6, 2013 23:33:23 GMT -7
The way they put the article together is all together unimpressive. But then, I am interested in proto-languages and have followed the topic for decades. My most disappointing think in reading the article was clicking on "Pagel’s team used as its starting material 200 words that linguists know to be the core vocabulary of all languages. " where "core vocabulary" was highlighted with an HTML link. That took me to the "The Swadesh List of Basic Vocabulary in 8 Languages" webspace.utexas.edu/bighamds/LIN312/Files/Swadesh.pdfSomeone has an ill sense of humor or judgement, as one of the languages is Esperanto, which is quite a MODERN language invented about 100 years ago by a Polish Lithuanian or Lithuanian-Pole. It casts doubt upon the writer's interpretation of the study he is writing about. It is also notable that of the European languages, none is a Slavic language, while about half of Europeans speak one or another of the Slavic languages... It would have been nice to see a table of the top 20 words in many WORLD languages! Kai
|
|
|
Post by pieter on May 6, 2013 23:41:31 GMT -7
This subject brings me back to Hermeneutics, the subject of language roots study, which tries to find the general origin of all language. Was there one language in ancient times for instance, from which all languages come from? It is really interesting from a human, personal perspective, to think about it or ask yourself did our ancient ancesters spoke the same language, the first homo sapiens we all stem from? Or was there back then already a large variety of languages and dialects spoken by those homo sapiens. Did languages develop seperately or were there large language groups or " one language" group like our Indo-European language group? Here the wikipedia description of it: Hermeneutics (/hɜrməˈnjuːtɪks/), broadly, is the art and science of text interpretation. Traditional hermeneutics is the study of the interpretation of written texts, especially texts in the areas of literature, religion and law. A type of traditional hermeneutic is biblical hermeneutics which concerns the study of the interpretation of the Bible. In religious studies and social philosophy, hermeneutics is the study of the theory and practice of interpretation. Modern hermeneutics encompasses everything in the interpretative process including verbal and nonverbal forms of communication as well as prior aspects that affect communication, such as presuppositions, preunderstandings, the meaning and philosophy of language, and semiotics. The terms exegesis and hermeneutics have been used interchangeably. However, hermeneutics is a more widely defined discipline of interpretation theory, because it includes the entire framework of the interpretive process, encompassing written, verbal, and nonverbal communication. Exegesis, on the other hand, focuses primarily on written text. Philosophical hermeneutics refers primarily to the theory of knowledge initiated by Martin Heidegger and developed by Hans-Georg Gadamer in Truth and Method, and sometimes to the theories of Paul Ricoeur. Hermeneutic consistency refers to analysis of texts for coherent explanation. A hermeneutic (singular) refers to one particular method or strand of interpretation. www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/754957/philosophy-of-language/257836/The-hermeneutic-tradition#ref923947en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneuticspl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutykade.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutik
|
|
|
Post by kaima on May 7, 2013 1:26:51 GMT -7
Trying for a current graphic of language relationships:
|
|
|
Post by JustJohn or JJ on May 7, 2013 6:00:24 GMT -7
Ancient Eurasiatic ‘superfamily’ found at root of European and Asian languages By Ian Sample, The Guardian Monday, May 6, 2013 19:52 EDT Topics: Eurasiatic languages ♦ Mark Pagel Languages spoken by billions of people across Europe and Asia are descended from an ancient tongue uttered in southern Europe at the end of the last ice age, according to research. The claim, by scientists in Britain, points to a common origin for vocabularies as varied as English and Urdu, Japanese and Itelmen, a language spoken along the north-eastern edge of Russia. The ancestral language, spoken at least 15,000 years ago, gave rise to seven more that formed an ancient Eurasiatic “superfamily”, the researchers say. These in turn split into languages now spoken all over Eurasia, from Portugal to Siberia. “Everybody in Eurasia can trace their linguistic ancestry back to a group, or groups, of people living around 15,000 years ago, probably in southern Europe, as the ice sheets were retreating,” said Mark Pagel, an evolutionary biologist at Reading University. Linguists have long debated the idea of an ancient Eurasiatic superfamily of languages. The idea is controversial because many words evolve too rapidly to preserve their ancestry. Most words have a 50% chance of being replaced by an unrelated term every 2,000-4,000 years. But some words last much longer. In a previous study, Pagel’s team showed that certain words – among them frequently used pronouns, numbers and adverbs – survived for tens of thousands of years before other words replaced them. For their latest study, Pagel used a computer model to predict words that changed so rarely that they should sound the same in the different Eurasiatic languages. They then checked their list against a database of early words reconstructed by linguists. “Sure enough,” said Pagel, “the words we predicted would be similar, were similar.” Writing in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, the authors list 23 words found in at least four of the proposed Eurasiatic languages. Most of the words are frequently used ones, such as the pronouns for “I” and “we”, and the nouns, “man” and “mother”. But the survival of other terms was more baffling. The verb “to spit”, and the nouns “bark” and “worm” all had lengthy histories. “Bark was really important to early people,” said Pagel. “They used it as insulation, to start fires, and they made fibres from it. But I couldn’t say I expected “to spit” to be there. I have no idea why. I have to throw my hands up.” Only a handful of verbs appear on the list, but Pagel points out “to give”, which appeared in similar form in five of the Eurasiatic languages. “This is what marks out human society, this hyper-co-operation that we do,” he said. From their findings, the scientists drew up a family tree of the seven languages. All emerged from a common tongue around 15,000 years ago, and split off into separate languages over the next 5,000 years. “The very fact that we can identify these words that retain traces of their deep ancestry tells us something fundamental about our language faculties. It tells us we have this ability to transmit highly complicated and precise information from mouth to ear over tens of thousands of years,” said Pagel. guardian.co.uk © Guardian News and Media 2013
|
|
|
Post by Jaga on May 7, 2013 10:58:47 GMT -7
guys,
I am glad you followed the info and you are interested in it. I actually found some info in Polish websites later on. They state that proto-Polish and proto-germanic are very similar. We took lots of Germanic words, Russians even more.... for instance dushe (shower) in Russians in of Germanic origin but..... the names of Polish rivers are pro-Slavic, but the names of the mountains... Karpatians, Tatras.... who knows? Maybe wenedian origin.
|
|
|
Post by pieter on May 7, 2013 14:14:19 GMT -7
Trying for a current graphic of language relationships: Kaima, Very interesting, detailed and good language map. Watching it I see that I am totally linked to the West-Germanic languages. (English, German, Dutch, Yiddish, Low German and a little bit Frisian - Karl can understand Frisian better than I do. And I wonder if there is a difference between Dutch West-Frisian and German East-Frisian) The strange thing is that I learned French at school and spoke (speak) it a little bit in Wallonia (French part of Belgium), but can't understand a word of Spanish, Portugese or Italian, which is from the same language group. I wonder when you have studied classical latin (the language of the Romans and the Roman-Catholic church), if you then would be able to understand all latin languages, because all the Latin (Italic, Latino-Faliscan) languages have classical latin roots. In fact I consider French, Spanish, Portugese, Italian and Rumanian as Latin dialects which developped themselves to regional languages, of their specific area's (corners) of Europe. Like the German languages developped from Franconian German. These were tribal languages and dialects which developped themselves to languages of peoples after the tribes united to be the various Germanic peoples. In the Middle ages the differences between German and Dutch for instance were smaller. The name for old Dutch, Diets, sounds like the Dutch word for German, Duits, for instance. The Netherlands then were part of the Large German empire, called das Heiliges Römisches Reich (latin: Sacrum Romanum Imperium), the Holy Roman Empire in English. The destinct Northern branch of the German languages, the Scandinavian languages developped in a separate way. Interesting is that many words in Danish and Swedish are similar to Dutch and German words, but that most of their words and sentences are completely different. I have been twice to Denmark and some sentences or words also sound English to me. And that is not strange, because the Danes occupied England in the late middle ages and there is a significant Danish influence on English due that time of Viking rule in England. PolishThe Slavic languages and their language development are further away for me, but I know about the three slavic language groups and who belong to them. The West Slavic Polish language belongs to the Lekhitic subgroup and closely related to Czech, Slovak, and the Sorbian languages of eastern Germany; it is spoken by the majority of the present population of Poland. The modern literary language, written in the Roman ( Latin) alphabet, dates from the 16th century and was originally based on the dialects of the area around Poznań, in western Poland. Polish contains a great number of words borrowed from Latin, Czech, German, Belarusian, and Ukrainian and also some words from Italian, French, and English. Along with the other West Slavic languages, it has a fixed stress accent. In contrast to the others, however, the language has nasalized vowels (spelled ę and ą), indirectly continuing the nasalized vowels of early Slavic. Other notable influences in the past have been Latin (9th–18th centuries), Czech (10th and 14th–15th centuries), Italian (15th–16th centuries), French (18th–19th centuries), German (13–15th and 18th–20th centuries), Hungarian (14th–16th centuries) and Turkish (17th century). The Latin language, for a very long time the only official language of the Polish state, has had a great influence on Polish. Many Polish words ( rzeczpospolita from res publica, zdanie for both " opinion" and " sentence", from sententia) were direct calques from Latin. Many words have been borrowed from the German language, as a result of being neighbours for a millennium, and also as the result of a sizable German population in Polish cities during medieval times. German words found in the Polish language are often connected with trade, the building industry, civic rights and city life. Some words were assimilated verbatim, for example handel (trade) and dach (roof); others are pronounced the same, but differ in writing schnur—sznur (cord). The Polish language has many German expressions which have become literally translated. Recent borrowing is primarily of " international" words from the English language, mainly those that have Latin or Greek roots, for example komputer (computer), korupcja (corruption) etc. Slang sometimes borrows and alters common English words, e.g. luknąć (to look). Concatenation of parts of words (e.g. auto-moto), which is not native to Polish but common in English, for example, is also sometimes used. Loanwords from PolishThe Polish language has influenced others. Particular influences appear in other Slavic languages and in German — due to their proximity and shared borders. Examples of loanwords include German Grenze (border), Dutch and Afrikaans Grens from Polish granica; German Peitzker from Polish piskorz (weatherfish); German Zobel, French Zibeline, Swedish Sobel, and English Sable from Polish soból; and ogonek (" little tail") — the word describing a diacritic hook-sign added below some letters in various alphabets. Also " spruce" (" z Prus" = " from Prussia") in English. " Szmata," a Polish word for " mop" or " rag" became part of Yiddish. Sources: Encyclopedia Britannica, Encyclopedia Wikipedia and my own (Pieters) memory, mind and opinion ;D. Cheers, Pieter P.S.- Excactly those Latin roots and the latin grammar and orthography of Polish makes it an extremely difficult language for me. Mind you that I had already difficulties with German and French grammar and orthography in highschool and was struggling with English too. Dutch grammar and orthography is illogical, you simply have to learn things, but for the rest it is easy for a native speaker. The other languages mentioned above here have more complicated orthographies and grammars, because they have all those Grammatical cases, and the Female, male and Plural. English and German took me years to get a simple, basic level of it.
|
|
|
Post by pieter on May 7, 2013 14:56:00 GMT -7
Kaima, Jaga and JJ,
What is fascinating about languages and their development is that the influence, range, spread of languages changes due to time, geopolitical changes, economics, trade, technology, military power and culture. French a dominant language of the European elite, diplomacy, French colonies, nobility, kings and queens, patricians, aristocracy and cultural intelligentsia circles in the 18th, 19th and early 20th century, declined due to the rising power of the USA and the SovjetUnion and the competition of Great Britain (Britain rules the waves), Portugal and Spain. (Latin- and Southern-America and the Portuguese colonies in Africa) In the 20th century the French language was replaced by English. In the twenties a lot of the non-French elite classes and bourgeoisie in Europe became English oriented.
Today we see that the British English and American English is challenged by the Spanish language of the latino's of Latin- and Southern-America. Chinese is also on the rise as a language. Dutch and German highschool pupils for instance can choose Chinese as a subject next to English and French (and German for Dutch highschool pupils). French in the past was the third foreign language in the Netherlands next to English and German. Today few Dutch people speak French or are able to understand french, because English has become the dominant second language in Dutch. German is the third language and most people can speak a little bit of German, because it is close to Dutch. But fewer Dutch youngsters are good in German though. English is the dominant language due to the internationalization, American pop culture, Hollywood movies, American sitcoms and detectives and internet.
German for a long time was a dominant and influential language in Europe, because it was a technical, trade and communication language for people in non-German countries like Poland, the Netherlands, Denmark, Luxemburg, Northern-France, the Tirol part of Italy, Czech republic, Hungary, Slovakia, Slovenia, Croatia and parts of Bonia and Kosovo (Many Kosovo Albenians work and live in Germany). German was my communication language with my Polish grandmother and some other Polish family members. I spoke English with my Poznan cousins (girls).
Cheers. Pieter
|
|
|
Post by kaima on May 8, 2013 1:48:58 GMT -7
Der Spiegel has a write-up on this as well, and with typical, admirable Teutonic thoroughness, they have a link to the original paper. This is at www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/05/01/1218726110.full.pdf+htmland on the part of the screen with the paper, there are icons on the upper edge. The second from the left is to download the paper. That allowed me to read the full thing comfortably. Kai
|
|
|
Post by karl on May 8, 2013 7:44:22 GMT -7
To All I must say you are most amazing with your knowledge and speaking ability in these various languages. Speaking for my self, I am not very linguistic and have difficulties learning any new unfamiliar language apart from those in life circumstances have been exposed to by necessity. Thank you Pieter for your nice mention of my Frisian speaking. It was what we only knew in my early life, being our area in Dänemark was our language we used on the coastal land. Being in Dänemark, it was not difficult to know that language as we lived in that land. Pieter has the best in knowing languages, for if to hear the spoken Dutch he knows as his language, will to appreciate very much his knowledge of his home language, for it is most difficult to us as non Dutch.. Pieter is most correct though from our experience and point of view of English. Although it was forced upon us by circumstance and educational requirement in school, it is non the less, a universal language we have at or option. For in most areas of our known world, some one always it would so appear, to known English or at the least, a partial working knowledge of the language. I believe the foundation has been laid for a blue print of understanding of the history of English has been very well brought forward at present. For with English, is the manner of a living language that is innately in common with most languages as subject to change with time and usage. If for example: A person to come across writing of the old English as portrayed in Anglo-Saxon, to then slowly read with understanding, you may be quite surprisingly able to then begin to understand the writing. For this would be the grandfather of English as introduced into the land of the mist {England} by the Saxons in conjunction with Norse, for the word Viking means only as: Sea traveler and warrior. For it was as our history indicates, was to two kings to bring into agreement for in the stead of fighting for their stake of the lands of England, to in this stead, to divide between them the lands they had won through conquering: The Saxon king: Alfred and the Danisch King: Gathrum. Through both of these kings, were to influence by presence, the language of English to what we know of in this present time. If to have had the pleasure to have learnt Latin, then would be the pleasure of more easy to learn Spanish/Italian/French and Portuguese. Unfortunately this was not my case as a younger, for only through the forces of necessity was to have learnt Castillian Spanisch {Argentinian}, with this a speaking tool now useful in the area of this known world I work and live in. Some years past, we in the North, were provided no choice but to switch to high German, or new high German or as commonally known, modern German {Neuhochdeutsch} and with this, some changes in use of spelling, but this has been problematical. Many of our selves, includant of my self, still use the old spelling. For why not? Are they to hang us for other wise? With the languages to our East {sorry Jaga}is a mystery to people of my self. Thought perhaps to be includant as show and tell with the following url. Not as intensive to the work as brought forward by our member friend Kai. For his work is most commendable in personal research and time, with this his skill in presentations. www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/engol-0-X.htmlKarl
|
|
|
Post by Jaga on May 8, 2013 9:56:42 GMT -7
Kai, referring to webspace.utexas.edu/bighamds/LIN312/Files/Swadesh.pdfI wish the add at least one Slavic language there, maybe Slavic languages differ too much. Maybe except words like: day, night, salt, left, new, snow (dzien. noc, sol, lewy, nowy, snieg) Referring to
|
|
|
Post by Jaga on May 8, 2013 9:57:58 GMT -7
I found something very interesting. Polish word for life (zycie) comes from rye (zyto) since this was the main food product Slavs were eating. Probably this is the same with Russian language.
So RYE was the most important crop ensuring LIFE
|
|
|
Post by Eric on May 8, 2013 10:16:47 GMT -7
All these words are practically identical between Russian and Polish: day = день / dzień night = ночь / noc salt = соль / sól left = левый / lewy new = новый / nowy snow = снег / snieg
"Life" in Russian is "жизнь" (zhizn), the same root as Polish, but "rye" is "рожь" (rozh). Jaga speculated that it must be a newer word, but "рожь" actually comes directly from Church Slavonic, which means it is a very, very old word in Slavic languages.
|
|
|
Post by Jaga on May 8, 2013 10:22:13 GMT -7
Eric, I remembered all of these Russian words except for "rye" therefore I asked. I did think that Russian "rye" came from "rice" means "roz" in Polish "ryz" but you said that this is from old Slavonic church. Polish language was not really influenced by old Slavonic church that much Slavonic Church was born about a 1000 years ago? So, it could replace another word..... I need to check other Slavic languages....
|
|