|
Post by Jaga on Jul 3, 2013 12:15:21 GMT -7
Pieter, I looked at Tufta post. I agree with parts of it:
+++ Part, stress on part, of Polish pre-1989 diaspora has a huge merit in helping Poland break away from real-communism. Post-1989 diaspora are generally just better-oportunity seekers.
I cannor speak for Bo or others but to me - the main discrepancy inside American Polania's attitude is in between two facts: Americans of Polish origin are among the most successful in USA, yet Poland as a country is among having the worst press, with prejudice, sometimes outward slander of Poland or Poles being allowed, 'allowable' in American society, media , and so on.+++
Polonia did not change really before and after 1989, what changed, is the political situation of Poland. Polonia in America is in the state of marasm since there is no any new influx of people here. If the US would finally eliminate a difficult process of obtaining visas for Poles, this might change, although young people would probably mainly choose Western Europe, since they would still not be allowed to work in the US.
Referring to his statement: +++Americans of Polish origin are among the most successful in USA+++not sure what proof he has. Polonia is doing OK, some people are university professors, some are illegal workers. I do not see any indication that somehow Poles are doing better than for instance American of Dutch origin. I agree that American Jews or generally Israel is treated much better than Polish Americans. Other than Jews or Latinos, who are seen on political stage due to their sheer number, no any minority is treated much differet in the US. It is also hard to call Poles in the US really the minority, since they mainly cultivate the habits of their ancestors, not the real Poland.
I still cannot understand why Tufta cannot come here and discuss it with us.
|
|
|
Post by Jaga on Jul 9, 2013 22:10:07 GMT -7
Here is more photos from Polonia events: they have lots of certificates and diplomas to hang on the wall:
|
|
|
Post by pieter on Jul 10, 2013 8:07:47 GMT -7
Jaga, I was maybe to critical about Polish-American organisations like the Polonia. I have never seen, met or focussed myself on their activities, agenda and maybe lobby activities inside the USA. What I know from a young Pole living in Germany who was active with the Polonia of the world, that he had the opinion that the Polonia organisations could learn something from the Jewish lobby and thus organisations, because they are very well organised. I only know the Dutch Polonia chanals, because they are in my neighborhood or environment. You have polonia.nl/ , the Dutch version of Proboards Polish Culture Forum (both this one and Bonobo's one); www.polenforum.nl/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl , www.forum-polen.nl/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=48 and the (in my opinion) largest, oldest and most important Polish-Dutch organisation in the Netherlands, the Polsko-Niderlandzkie Stowarzyszenie Kulturalne, the PKNV. My present opinion is that it is okay that these people have their Polonia organisations for the preservation of Polish-American culture, as community organisations and as communication and contact platform between Americans with a Polish heritage to meet eachother and to do things together, like social activities, charity, and traveling to Poland to get to know the country of their ancesters. Cheers, Pieter
|
|
|
Post by pieter on Jul 10, 2013 8:13:45 GMT -7
Pieter, I looked at Tufta post. I agree with parts of it: +++ Part, stress on part, of Polish pre-1989 diaspora has a huge merit in helping Poland break away from real-communism. Post-1989 diaspora are generally just better-oportunity seekers.
I cannor speak for Bo or others but to me - the main discrepancy inside American Polania's attitude is in between two facts: Americans of Polish origin are among the most successful in USA, yet Poland as a country is among having the worst press, with prejudice, sometimes outward slander of Poland or Poles being allowed, 'allowable' in American society, media , and so on.+++Polonia did not change really before and after 1989, what changed, is the political situation of Poland. Polonia in America is in the state of marasm since there is no any new influx of people here. If the US would finally eliminate a difficult process of obtaining visas for Poles, this might change, although young people would probably mainly choose Western Europe, since they would still not be allowed to work in the US. Referring to his statement: +++Americans of Polish origin are among the most successful in USA+++not sure what proof he has. Polonia is doing OK, some people are university professors, some are illegal workers. I do not see any indication that somehow Poles are doing better than for instance American of Dutch origin. I agree that American Jews or generally Israel is treated much better than Polish Americans. Other than Jews or Latinos, who are seen on political stage due to their sheer number, no any minority is treated much differet in the US. It is also hard to call Poles in the US really the minority, since they mainly cultivate the habits of their ancestors, not the real Poland. I still cannot understand why Tufta cannot come here and discuss it with us. Interesting and practical (realistic) comments Jaga. That is the reality of today, as you witness it as a Polish-American who is living and working in the USA.
|
|
|
Post by Jaga on Jul 10, 2013 9:20:20 GMT -7
Pieter,
I looked at Dutch Polonia website. It looks more modern than American Polonia's stuff.
I agree that Polonia could learn a lot from Jewish lobby. But it is not that easy to have such a great influence like Jewish lobby has. American Polonia looks quite conservative, they even vote differently than an average Pole. They probably live in tehir own bubble and do not get out of it too often, but well, if they decide to make it social it is their choice and it may work for them.
|
|
|
Post by pieter on Jul 10, 2013 15:12:48 GMT -7
Pieter, I looked at Dutch Polonia website. It looks more modern than American Polonia's stuff. I agree that Polonia could learn a lot from Jewish lobby. But it is not that easy to have such a great influence like Jewish lobby has. American Polonia looks quite conservative, they even vote differently than an average Pole. They probably live in tehir own bubble and do not get out of it too often, but well, if they decide to make it social it is their choice and it may work for them. Jaga, I forgot to post the website of the website of the largest and oldest Dutch-Polish organisation of Dutch Poles, Dutch people interested in Poland and Dutch partners of Polish husbants and wives, the PKNV, Pools-Nederlandse Kulturele Vereniging ( Polsko-Niderlandzkie Stowarzyszenie Kulturalne). www.pnkv.nl/index.php?lang=pl ( And this is their well documented Facebook page: www.facebook.com/pages/Pools-Nederlands-Café/142668702440881 )They are a very good organisation with their ow magazine Biuletyn. I was a subscriber of Biuletyn durig the ninetees. They had very nice articles about Polish history, culture, art, Poland today (in the ninetees), Polish news, articles and essays about the political and economical situation in Poland back then, about the relationship between Polish jews and Roman-Catholics, Roman-Catholic news in the sense of the special Polish branche of Roman-Catholicism (Polish religious events, celebrations and pilgrimages), news about the Polish embassy in the Hague (when the embassador opened an exhibition or went to a symbolic meeting). They wrote also about quite controversial and critical things. People of the Polsko-Niderlandzkie Stowarzyszenie Kulturalne (PKNV)I also followed a Polish language course in Oosterbeek, which was organised by the PKNV. Later I quit my subscription of Biuletyn, because my interest was wider or more Pan-European than only Polish news and news about the Polonia in the Netherlands. The level of the language course was to advanced for me to be able to continue it. The Dutch lady who was the teacher was a very sophisticated (oldfashionate aristocratic) school teacher of the highest level of Dutch higschool education, Gymnasium, which prepares Dutch pupils for University education. (Dutch elite education) It was out of my league. I believe or think that she tought latin or Greek next to these Polish evening language courses at her school. Ofcourse she spoke exellent Dutch, Polish, German, French and Polish. Her class Polish was made out of Dutch husbants or boyfriends of Polish wives and girls (young women), Dutch army personal who worked in Poland ( Liaison officers or employee's) (in that time bussy with the coming membership and integration of the Polish army of NATO), Dutch people who had business ties with Poland (Import & export companies; trade, Dutch-Polish business contacts, banks & insurrance companies) and some university and vocational university (level) students. I believe that the teacher had studied slavic studies at one of the Dutch universities. She had a high level of Polish. My mother told me that the teaching method was to complicated and that I should start with just learning simple words, sentences, the sound of Polish letters and words (pronounciation) and etc. After I quit the Polish lessons, I had a few simple Polish lessons from my mother. But Polish stayed a very difficult language for me. I love to hear Polish people speaking the language, it is an elegant and sophisticated cultural language, and it is good to realize that. Poland has great writers and poets and a good press (newspapers and magazines), blogs, websites and the news on Polish radio and newschanals. The sound of Polish language will be always connected to my earlies memories in life, because my mom must have used Polish words to me as a baby, and I heard my mother and babcia and dziadek speak Polish. Next to that I heard Polish during the many visits to Poland during the seventees and when Polish and Polish-American family visited us in the Netherlands. The lay-out of Biuletyn today looks nice and modernHow the exellent magazine Biuletyn looked like in the ninetees when I was a subscriber and ardent readerIf I compare it to my highschool period, the Polish language course in Oosterbeek had the level of Latin class and advanced French. I could coap with three West-Germanic languages: Dutch (compulsory), German (voluntary) and English (voluntary). Compulsory though was the fact that in my level of highschool HAVO, three languages had to be learned, studied and a certain level had to be reached at the final exams. I struggled hard for German and English. I have never been a great language expert or genious. But Polish, was like a mix of the most difficult of languages latin and french. It really had/has the latin orthography (spelling) and grammar, with the 7 cases, and I had great difficulties with the female and male forms. Dutch like English doesn't have cases. In the late ninetees I started to have a profound interest in the Poland that existed in that time. I followed the news about the process of Poland entering the NATO and EU. I read every article or essay about Poland I could lay my hands on. I didn't went to Poland (I don't know why?), but followed the country from a distance. Strange enough I did travel to the Czech republic (South-Bohemia and Prague), Hungary (Budapest), Switzerland (Zürich), Italy and Germany, but not Poland. The Polish Diaspora/Polonia was very tiny back then and not so visible as today. Today the Polish community in the Netherlands is large and they have their own shops, restaurants, bars, clubs, churches with Polish mass and community life. Today you see many cars, minibuses, vans and trucks with Polish number plates. There are quite a few in Arnhem. Maybe the Polonia in the Netherlands is younger than in the USA?Polish diaspora in the NetherlandsPolish immigration to the Netherlands has steadily increased since Poland was admitted to the E.U., and now an estimated 135,000 Polish people live in the country. The majority of them are guest workers through the European Union contract labor program, as more Poles obtain employment in this country's light industrial jobs. The growing number of Polish nationals could double in the next decade depending on economic conditions in Poland. The majority of Polish people in the Netherlands are in The Hague (approximately 30,000) but Polish emigres long settled in Amsterdam and industrial towns or cities like Utrecht and Groningen. Polish immigrants arrived to find employment in the Netherlands in the 19th and 20th centuries. Kupala's night: June 29, 2013 Lekkerkerk, the NetherlandsKupałaKupała is a traditional goddess in Slavic mythology. Although the word kupala (or kupalo) is usually explained as " bather" (from kupat(i) ' to bathe'), some scholars claim that it is not an epithet of John the Baptist, but a name of a pre-Christian Slavic deity, derived from some other root. The cult of Kupala, the god of fertility and sexuality, was presumably replaced by worship of John the Baptist. Kupala Night is celebrated in Poland in Mazowsze and Podlasie on the night of 23/24 June. Calendar-wise, it is opposite to the winter holiday Koliada. The celebration relates to the summer solstice when nights are the shortest and includes a number of fascinating Pagan rituals. Folklore and Slavic religious beliefsMany of the rites related to this holiday within Slavic religious beliefs, due to the ancient Kupala rites, are connected with the role of water in fertility and ritual purification. On Kupala day, youth jump over the flames of bonfires in a ritual testing of one's bravery and faith. A couple in love's failure to complete the jump while holding their hands is a sign of their destined separation. Girls would float wreaths of flowers often lit with candles on rivers and would attempt to gain foresight into their relationship fortunes from the flow patterns of the flowers on the river. Men may attempt to capture the wreaths, in the hope of capturing the interest of the woman who floated the wreath. There is an ancient Kupala belief, that the eve of Ivan Kupala is the only time of the year when ferns bloom. Prosperity, luck, discernment and power would befall on whoever finds a fern flower. Therefore, on that night village folks would roam through the forests in search of magical herbs and especially the elusive fern flower. Traditionally, unmarried women, signified by their garlands on their hair, would be the first to enter the forests. They are followed by young men. Therefore, consequent to the quest in finding herbs and the fern flower may be the blooming of relationships between pairs of men and women within the forest. Cheers, Pieter
|
|
|
Post by pieter on Jul 10, 2013 15:54:42 GMT -7
|
|
|
Post by pieter on Jul 10, 2013 17:04:19 GMT -7
|
|
|
Post by Jaga on Jul 10, 2013 21:32:15 GMT -7
Pieter,
thanks, I saw the youtube video awarding Dutch Polonia awards. These people look younger. I was glad to see also couple of middle age women being awarded for art and help Poles to get used to this society. Nice to see Kayah! She become famous in Poland when I already left, but she is really an interesting singer and personality.
|
|
|
Post by pieter on Jul 11, 2013 9:27:33 GMT -7
Pieter, thanks, I saw the youtube video awarding Dutch Polonia awards. These people look younger. I was glad to see also couple of middle age women being awarded for art and help Poles to get used to this society. Nice to see Kayah! She become famous in Poland when I already left, but she is really an interesting singer and personality. Jaga, I liked the video awarding Dutch Polonia awards too. It opened my eyes to a fact I didn't realize it existed. Succesful Dutch Poles of the Polish diaspora in the Netherlands. The Dutch and Polish media haven't always portrayed the Polish expats and Poles from the Diaspora communities in a positive light. Often you hear about problems or difficulties, caused or experiance by the Polish minority. As perpetrators, victims or passive people who just do their job and shut up for the rest. It was so nice to see this video instaid of news like: " Drunken Poles cause accidents...", " Polish car thieves caught at the Dutch-German border...", " Two Polish women die when they were driven over by a Dutch car after they suddenly crossed a bussy highway..[they were quarelling with eachother - real news -]" or " Dutch far right party opens anti-Polish hotline". Or only news about Polish agricultural workers or construction workers. Not about succesful Polish entrepreneurs, students, artists, women, like in this video. I have the idea that the Dutch Polonia are very active, have their social networks and their meetings. I am not part of the Polonia. What I posted here I found on the internet. I agree with you that it was nice to see several older Dutch Polish women being awarded or active for the Polonia. The video you mentioned mentioned the hunger of Dutch Poles for news about Poland. I don't know if they are closely connected to Poland and if many of them travel a lot to Poland or not? I only see the cars, mini busses, vans and trucks with Polish licence plates in Dutch cities, towns, villages and on Dutch highways. Many very many Polish trucks. And occasionally Polish people who walk along the street, sit in a restaurant or are in the supermarket where I buy my groceries. These intitiatives, these websites, these blogs, magazines and video's are very important to show a positive image of Poles in the Netherlands. Because they do a lot of good work over here too. They are 150 thousand people, 150,000 new Dutch people. Cheers, Pieter
|
|
|
Post by kaima on Jul 11, 2013 9:38:37 GMT -7
Pieter, I looked at Dutch Polonia website. It looks more modern than American Polonia's stuff. That reminds me of reading about the great differences in generations of immigrants to America. Specifically the generation 100 years ago came from starvation or hunger and lack of opportunity. The DP generation after WW II came to avoid communist oppression and imprisonment if they had been active in any of the right wing (non communist) governing parties. The final generation has been coming for the last 20 years for economic opportunity and ? The first generation were simple, uneducated farmers and laborers with little in common with the DP's, who were often the elite, governing, educated society. Then the last generation I will leave to others to define. In any case, perhaps the American Polonia stems primarily from the first generation of immigrants and they can't see past their kroj (traditional costumes and kolach). That is my family's arrival, but I can saw we all (me possibly excepted) are quite thoroughly Americanized and not active in ethnic activities. Kai
|
|
|
Post by pieter on Jul 11, 2013 10:02:30 GMT -7
Pieter, I looked at Dutch Polonia website. It looks more modern than American Polonia's stuff. That reminds me of reading about the great differences in generations of immigrants to America. Specifically the generation 100 years ago came from starvation or hunger and lack of opportunity. The DP generation after WW II came to avoid communist oppression and imprisonment if they had been active in any of the right wing (non communist) governing parties. The final generation has been coming for the last 20 years for economic opportunity and ? The first generation were simple, uneducated farmers and laborers with little in common with the DP's, who were often the elite, governing, educated society. Then the last generation I will leave to others to define. In any case, perhaps the American Polonia stems primarily from the first generation of immigrants and they can't see past their kroj (traditional costumes and kolach). That is my family's arrival, but I can saw we all (me possibly excepted) are quite thoroughly Americanized and not active in ethnic activities. Kai Kai, Maybe that is a healthy situation and a good thing. My mother came from Poland to the Netherlands and became Dutch, my sister moved to South-Africa to the English speaking Cape Town and today she is an English speaking South-African woman with an Anglo-African family (her husbant's family is a white, English, South-African family)and she is integrated into that environment. My Polish-American family in Chicago and Milwaukee are American-English speaking people with American children. My cousins speak Polish with their Polish family in Poland and American-English in the USA with their family, friends and colleages. They are Americans. A great thing about the USA was the fact that the country was more succesful in integrating and assimilating European immigrants of various backgrounds to American citizens. It is okay that many Americans feel attracted or connected to their European roots as long that they don't forget who they really are. Americans. And most Americans are a mix of various European nations. Like my niece and nephew from Milwaukee, they have Polish-American, Ukrainian-American and Italian-American roots due to their parents. Their mother is Polish American. My cousin, who had two Polish parents who came to the USA at the end of the war and after the war and spoke Polish at home. The father of the boy and girl has parents with Ukrainian and Italian roots. So they are Americans with Central-European, Eastern-European and Southern-European roots, but in the same time are very American kids. Cheers, Pieter
|
|
|
Post by pieter on Jul 11, 2013 14:26:50 GMT -7
On the other Polish culture Forum Uncle Tim posted this about the same topic Polonia World - do they live in the past?I don't think I hold any romantic notions about what Poland is or was. I don't even consider myself part of Polonia. I'm more of a Polonius.. I do have Polish ancestry, but I am completely an American. My elders didn't speak of Poland often or even fondly, much too busy living their lives here. I became interested in the country some time ago because there is a historical connection for me. I'm glad my ancestors left during the partition. However, If I were to decide to leave here, Poland would be a consideration. ( Although not my first.) Pieter, As far as media goes, nobody here watches or listens to the news media anyway. It's generally ridiculed by anyone except the most dense. There are so many good web aggregators out there that we are simply waiting for the old media relics to collapse into the ether. My greatest joy will be seeing Katie Kouric selling diet pills on late-night television.
|
|
|
Post by JustJohn or JJ on Jul 11, 2013 15:30:19 GMT -7
On the other Polish culture Forum Uncle Tim posted this about the same topic Polonia World - do they live in the past?I don't think I hold any romantic notions about what Poland is or was. I don't even consider myself part of Polonia. I'm more of a Polonius.. I do have Polish ancestry, but I am completely an American. My elders didn't speak of Poland often or even fondly, much too busy living their lives here. I became interested in the country some time ago because there is a historical connection for me. I'm glad my ancestors left during the partition. However, If I were to decide to leave here, Poland would be a consideration. ( Although not my first.) Pieter, As far as media goes, nobody here watches or listens to the news media anyway. It's generally ridiculed by anyone except the most dense. There are so many good web aggregators out there that we are simply waiting for the old media relics to collapse into the ether. My greatest joy will be seeing Katie Kouric selling diet pills on late-night television. As a 2nd generation American with Polish ancestry, I agree with Tim wholeheartedly. Both of my parents were born in this country and returned to Poland as infants. They grew up there and formed their personalities there. The dangers of the war made them return at the behest of their parents. Arriving here with barely any wealth, it was the relatives and close family friends that helped them survive. My fathers early employment here was with the CCC corps sponsered by the US. Excerpt from Wikipedia: The CCC's appeal was far wider than the Democratic party alone. Much of its best work was, in fact, done in the Midwest or in New England, in rural areas where local Republicanism was strong. In 1936, not only did the Republican presidential candidate warmly support CCC work, but an estimated 67 per cent of all registered Republicans favored its continuation, [9] and in pressing for camps Republican congressmen were merely reflecting grass-roots opinion. As one such Republican, Charles L. Gifford of Massachusetts, said, "It has been a good thing . . . Republicans and Democrats favor it.After he took a position as a butcher and earned a satisfactory salary. But, he injured himself and lost 2 digits on his hand and when the draft came for him he was classified 4F do to loss of his fingers. He was besides himself that he couldn't serve in his country's military. Shortly after this he was employed by Pratt and Whitney in Hartford, Ct. where he retired 42 years later without missing a day of work. For the entire time that I served in Vietnam, his unit worked 14 days on one day off. I wasn't aware of any of this till he passed away. I on the other hand,I knew that he really wanted to serve and fight for his country. I made it a point in my early life to fulfill our families requirement of service to our country. No if, and or buts about it. Experiencing their living the life of the old country here was unique. Remember they arrived at a very early age in their lives. They brought with them the culture as they knew it at the time. All of this generation that arrived shared this culture. And it didn't change until they all died off. Can we blame them for not experiencing more? No, as they were very busy surviving and enjoying what they knew.
|
|
|
Post by Jaga on Jul 12, 2013 0:08:11 GMT -7
John, I did not realize that you parents went back to Poland and then came back before the war. Your father was probably very proud of your Vietnam service. Pieter, just today there is an article in Polish newspaper "Gazeta Wyborcza" about Poles in Netherlands: wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/1,114871,14257527,Polscy_imigranci_z_Holandii_chca_wracac__Bo_sa_dyskryminowani.html#TRrelSST they state that 20% of Poles in Netherlands experienced some type of discrimination. The newspaper twists it the negative way, I would say.... if 80% never experienced any discrimination in the foreign country, this is rather a positive. Some people state that their work is below their qualifications. This is probably true for many immigrants, me including.... wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/1,114871,14257527,Polscy_imigranci_z_Holandii_chca_wracac__Bo_sa_dyskryminowani.html#TRrelSST
|
|