Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Feb 12, 2008 13:42:58 GMT -7
And, by the way, the Catholic Church recognizes Allah as the same, one God that they pray to, as well as the Jewish Yaweh. Jeanne Of course, there can`t be multiple Gods who divided Earth into their seperate playgrounds to look after them. There is one God although he/she has many names. But, if it is so that Catholics accept Muslim or Jewish God as theirs too, why should they pray for Jews` conversion? I don`t get it. As a result, I won`t pray for it.
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Post by bescheid on Feb 12, 2008 13:54:45 GMT -7
And, by the way, the Catholic Church recognizes Allah as the same, one God that they pray to, as well as the Jewish Yaweh. Jeanne Of course, there can`t be multiple Gods who divided Earth into their seperate playgrounds to look after them. There is one God although he/she has many names. But, if it is so that Catholics accept Muslim or Jewish God as theirs too, why should they pray for Jews` conversion? I don`t get it. As a result, I won`t pray for it. Pawian Listion, for get this confusions of trash, ok? You recognize within your heart of the Lord God! You pray to him. For when you die, this is the one you wish to see... For you as with us, have but one time only to live, then we will die. This is a true given. Only one time. The choice is to you. For this is what God {Lord} has given us, the power of choice. Charles
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Feb 12, 2008 14:13:50 GMT -7
Of course, there can`t be multiple Gods who divided Earth into their seperate playgrounds to look after them. There is one God although he/she has many names. But, if it is so that Catholics accept Muslim or Jewish God as theirs too, why should they pray for Jews` conversion? I don`t get it. As a result, I won`t pray for it. Pawian Listion, for get this confusions of trash, ok? You recognize within your heart of the Lord God! You pray to him. For when you die, this is the one you wish to see... For you as with us, have but one time only to live, then we will die. This is a true given. Only one time. The choice is to you. For this is what God {Lord} has given us, the power of choice. Charles Yes, Charles, I fully agree with you. I underrstand you are as drunk as I ma.
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jeanne
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Post by jeanne on Feb 12, 2008 16:27:59 GMT -7
And, by the way, the Catholic Church recognizes Allah as the same, one God that they pray to, as well as the Jewish Yaweh. Jeanne Of course, there can`t be multiple Gods who divided Earth into their seperate playgrounds to look after them. There is one God although he/she has many names. But, if it is so that Catholics accept Muslim or Jewish God as theirs too, why should they pray for Jews` conversion? I don`t get it. As a result, I won`t pray for it. Pawian, These quotes from The Catechism of the Catholic Church published in 1994 may help explain it: The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, "the first to hear the Word of God." The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ", "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." "And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden until the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus." " The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." Neither of these quotes, official teachings of the Catholic Church, appear to me to be hostile to either Jews or Muslims and emphasize things we have in common, rather than our differences. Jeanne
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Feb 13, 2008 7:46:48 GMT -7
These quotes from The Catechism of the Catholic Church published in 1994 may help explain it: The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, "the first to hear the Word of God." The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ", "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." "And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden until the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus." " The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." Neither of these quotes, official teachings of the Catholic Church, appear to me to be hostile to either Jews or Muslims and emphasize things we have in common, rather than our differences. Jeanne Yes, indeed, those addresses to Muslims and Jews are devoid of hostilities. There is no word about crusades, or pogroms, of forceful conversions under the threat of death.... Yet, the catechism cherishes a hidden desire of the Catholic Church to carry out the conversion. Even on the slightest scale. It is natural that all won`t convert. But if a few do, it will be a success. That is why the appeal is there, just in case to get a few more believers, and the Church isn` t going to withdraw from it. I don`t like this appeal. It suggests that Judaism as religion has some faults which will be corrected when Jews start believing in Jesus Christ. Two words describe the Catholic Churche`s attitude in this case: intolerance and conceit.
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nathanael
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: “Die Wahrheit macht frei und ist das Fundament der Einheit (John Paul II)
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Post by nathanael on Feb 13, 2008 14:13:51 GMT -7
The fact that we all believe in the same Creator does not mean that we are of the same spirit. If Jews were of the same spirit as Christians, there would be no division between Christianity and Judaism. The exact same thing is true with regard to the Moslems. Had they been of the same spirit with us and Jews, they would welcome our prayers for them and the Jewish prayers for them. It is the spiritual divide that upsets our relations and makes the prayers for each other distasteful. Still, I think that this divide can only be overcome by the merits of Christ, and it is in this belief that Christianity has taken the right initiative to pray for all the world.
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Post by kaima on Feb 13, 2008 14:51:14 GMT -7
The fact that we all believe in the same Creator does not mean that we are of the same spirit. If Jews were of the same spirit as Christians, there would be no division between Christianity and Judaism. The exact same thing is true with regard to the Moslems. Had they been of the same spirit with us and Jews, they would welcome our prayers for them and the Jewish prayers for them. It is the spiritual divide that upsets our relations and makes the prayers for each other distasteful. Still, I think that this divide can only be overcome by the merits of Christ, and it is in this belief that Christianity has taken the right initiative to pray for all the world. Nathanael, It seems that even Christians 'of the same spirit' have proven themselves great at splitting skulls over theology. To split a hair with you, you say "I think that this divide can only be overcome by the merits of Christ", yet that leaves the Jews and the Moslems without a vehicle for overcoming this divide. I don't know if it is possible to simply propose tolerance outside of religious belief. That might lead to secular government, division of church and state, and a lack of religious wars. Kai
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jeanne
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Post by jeanne on Feb 13, 2008 14:53:03 GMT -7
Yes, indeed, those addresses to Muslims and Jews are devoid of hostilities. There is no word about crusades, or pogroms, of forceful conversions under the threat of death.... Yet, the catechism cherishes a hidden desire of the Catholic Church to carry out the conversion. Even on the slightest scale. It is natural that all won`t convert. But if a few do, it will be a success. That is why the appeal is there, just in case to get a few more believers, and the Church isn` t going to withdraw from it. I don`t like this appeal. It suggests that Judaism as religion has some faults which will be corrected when Jews start believing in Jesus Christ. Two words describe the Catholic Churche`s attitude in this case: intolerance and conceit. Pawian, Why would a Church/Religion even bother to continue/exist if it did not believe it possessed the Truth? It would be silly, and this applies to ANY religion. If a church (again, ANY church) believes it possesses the Truth, then it wishes to spread this truth so others may be enlightened; it is only natural. I don't see how this expresses intolerance and conceit. Jeanne
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Post by holaola on Feb 14, 2008 7:41:03 GMT -7
I also question this article because it refers to this prayer as part of the 'Good Friday Mass'. Good Friday is the only day of the year when Mass is not said, so there cannot be such a thing. It may be referring to a Good Friday prayer service. The only day in the year without a Mass is Holy Saturday. Did the Pope address Muslims or Buddhists in the same way? If not, and he singled out Jews only, it is unfair. What do you mean? Do we believe too much, too easily. The Bible says that God created us in His image - is it not nearer the truth that We created God in our image? Leslie Perhaps I wouldn't have chosen the word "created" but I certainly think that the various High Priests (for want of a better word) imagine that God is very much like them, so you've hit the nail on the head. And here`s a reply by a religious Jew. It is a bit long but i won`t shorten it. www.beingjewish.com/toshuv/missionaries.htmlThe Torah says: Should even your brother the son of your mother, your son, your daughter, or your beloved wife, or your dearest friend, try to seduce you secretly, trying to convince you to go and worship the gods of others, that your ancestors did not know, gods of the nations around you, whether near or far, from one end of the earth to the other; Do not like this person, and do not listen to him, do not have mercy upon him to save him, do not give him the benefit of the doubt, and do not cover up for him. You must utterly kill him, your hand should be the first to kill him, and the hand of all the nation should follow you. You must pelt him with stones until he dies, because he tried to push you away from Hashem your G-d, Who took you out of Egypt, from the house of slavery. And all of Israel will hear and fear, and they will not continue to do this terrible thing amongst you. -- Deuteronomy 13:7-12 Interesting. You just don`t know the Radio Maryja Catholic believers! hahahahaha I’m sure we don’t know them. But tell me, are they as “interesting” as their Deuteronomy-reading cousins?
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jeanne
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Post by jeanne on Feb 14, 2008 14:30:56 GMT -7
The only day in the year without a Mass is Holy Saturday. Hola, Sorry, you are mistaken. Good Friday is the only day without Mass as we do not celebrate on the day Christ died. Easter Vigil Mass is celebrated on the evening of Holy Saturday. Jeanne
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Post by holaola on Feb 15, 2008 9:36:12 GMT -7
Sorry, you are mistaken. Good Friday is the only day without Mass as we do not celebrate on the day Christ died. Easter Vigil Mass is celebrated on the evening of Holy Saturday. Jeanne! My humble apologies - you are right and I was wrong. No Mass on Good Friday.
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jeanne
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Posts: 544
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Post by jeanne on Feb 15, 2008 18:32:21 GMT -7
Sorry, you are mistaken. Good Friday is the only day without Mass as we do not celebrate on the day Christ died. Easter Vigil Mass is celebrated on the evening of Holy Saturday. Jeanne! My humble apologies - you are right and I was wrong. No Mass on Good Friday. Hola, Apology accepted!
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Post by justjohn on Feb 16, 2008 4:09:50 GMT -7
The fact that we all believe in the same Creator does not mean that we are of the same spirit. If Jews were of the same spirit as Christians, there would be no division between Christianity and Judaism. The exact same thing is true with regard to the Moslems. Had they been of the same spirit with us and Jews, they would welcome our prayers for them and the Jewish prayers for them. It is the spiritual divide that upsets our relations and makes the prayers for each other distasteful. Still, I think that this divide can only be overcome by the merits of Christ, and it is in this belief that Christianity has taken the right initiative to pray for all the world. Nathanael, It seems that even Christians 'of the same spirit' have proven themselves great at splitting skulls over theology. To split a hair with you, you say "I think that this divide can only be overcome by the merits of Christ", yet that leaves the Jews and the Moslems without a vehicle for overcoming this divide. I don't know if it is possible to simply propose tolerance outside of religious belief. That might lead to secular government, division of church and state, and a lack of religious wars. Kai Kai, I wonder how this world would be if we did not have religious wars say for the last 500 years? Would civilization be any different? Give me secular government anytime!!!!!!!
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nathanael
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: “Die Wahrheit macht frei und ist das Fundament der Einheit (John Paul II)
Posts: 636
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Post by nathanael on Feb 17, 2008 16:51:13 GMT -7
I see absolutely nothing wrong with the prayer as revised by Pope Benedict XVI: "Let us pray for the Jews. May the Lord Our God enlighten their hearts so that they may acknowledge Jesus Christ, the Savior of all men." Rather than proselytizing, the prayer asks Yahweh, the God of the Jews, to help them see His own Image, His Holiness! More precisely, the prayer hopes to help the Jews to come to the realization that Jesus and no one else is The Holy One of Israel! The Jewish faith is never in conflict with knowing God (the Hebrew term is yada). Their own Torah asks them to be holy, like Yahweh! As a matter of fact, what this (Catholic) prayer incites, is exactly what the Torah commands in Leviticus 20, 7-8, namely that: "You must consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I [Yahweh] am the Lord your God. Keep my decrees and follow them. I am the Lord who makes you holy" (7 wehitkadishtem wiheytem kedoshim kiy aniy Yehwah eloheykem 8 ushmartem et- hukotay weasiytem otam aniy Yehwah mekadishkem)! Jesus was a Hebrew and He was all about fulfilling this precept to be holy! As a true Hebrew, He was entirely consecrated to Yahweh in spirit, doing nothing of Himself or for Himself! He was one with Yahweh in spirit! As such, He was a model for all Jews, what does it mean to be Jew, by fulfilling the Torah's command "to be holy because Yahweh is holy"! So I disagree with Jeanne that "we are merely discussing prayers within the [parameters] of Catholic worship." What we are talking here is much more than prayer: we are talking about the Jewish [and Catholic] common call to holiness: we are challenging the Jews to observe their own Torah! Here the "proselytizing" takes the form of pointing out the spiritual common ground which we and the Jews share through the Torah! We are reaching out in spirit to the Jews! So, Kaima, the Torah itself is "a vehicle for the Jews to overcome the divide" between themselves and Christians! All the Jews need to do, is to read their Torah prayerfully and with attention! And I agree with Jeanne that "it is an act of charity to pray that Jews acknowledge [their own truth]! It's an act of true friendship, not proselytizm!
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george
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Post by george on Feb 19, 2008 12:09:18 GMT -7
Oh for Christ sakes, leave the Jews alone!
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