Poverty Immigration

[karl]

For as the title describes, poverty Immigration. Fraud has many faces, in this matter, it is foreign immigration from some of our poorest neighbours as in this example: Bulgaria and Romania. The primary focus of most of these people {and families} is access to our social welfare programmes, and they are doing it. These people are from the poor regions to our east and with them, they bring their families of need with them.

So, what do you do,,and how do you contend with such a situation. For on one side of the roman coin, these people are eating out of the social welfare hand out with fraud as the primary reasoning. The bread they are eating, is payed for by the sweat of the working people with out the entent of repayment or generation of income in the work force.

The net work comprising as the entent of welfare, was to provide a safety net for those who have lost their source of income for what ever reason. It is an insurance system designed for temporary assistance until the bread winner of the house whole is able to once again rejoin the work force. Not to be used as a retirement source as evident by these people as described.

But, what do you do? It is a question of humanity in the face of reality. For with the adults, are the children, are they to suffer for the crimes of their elders? For this is a crime of welfare fraud in desguise by entent of those named as Immigrants.

It is as it is, but in the name of humanity, questions are not the answer, but results are. One answer is explulsion out of the country if reasonable proof of entent in entering the work force with the correct work permits. With this though, opens up the barn doors of forgery by default in work permits as forged documents as a buisness. For Romania is very well known in this arena in the past situations in Greece with selling of children by Romanian parents.

So then, we do have a question, are these people simply crooks and thieves? Or are they honest down on the luck people with the desperate search for answers to save their families by?







01/03/2014 05:05 PM

Coalition Row

Merkel Tries to Defuse 'Poverty Immigration' Debate

The debate over "poverty migration" to Germany has escalated inside Chancellor Merkel's governing coalition this week, prompting her to step in and seek to calm fears as Bulgarians and Romanians gain access to the European labor market.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel on Friday indirectly entered into a debate within her governing coalition about controversial calls by conservatives to restrict welfare payments to immigrants from Bulgaria and Romania.

The calls -- which included the slogan "Those who commit fraud are out" and a suggested three-month ban on welfare payments for immigrants -- came in response to the Jan. 1 opening of European labor markets to residents of the two countries, which are among the European Union's poorest members.

It's a development that has sparked fears of an influx of "poverty migration" across Europe, one that has sparked debates in France, Britain, Germany and elswhere in the EU. And Bavaria's Christian Social Union (CSU), the sister party to Merkel's conservative Christian Democratic Union (CDU), has taken the lead in warning against allowing these potential immigrants to benefit from the German social system, prompting criticism from their center-left coalition partners the Social Democrats (SPD), plus accusations of right-wing populism from the opposition.

In reaction, Merkel, who was also previously criticized for her silence on the matter, telephoned her new vice chancellor and SPD leader Sigmar Gabriel to arrange the creation of a special committee for reviewing the issue during a cabinet meeting next Wednesday.

Freedom of Movement 'Essential' to Europe

But members of Merkel's CDU have also been stirring the populist debate, with European Parliamentarian Elmar Brok suggesting on Friday that immigrants be forced to have their fingerprints taken to prevent welfare fraud. "Immigrants who come to Germany only for unemployment welfare payments, child benefits and health insurance must be sent home quickly to their homelands," he told the tabloid daily Bild.

But not all conservatives necessarily agree. Armin Laschet, a fellow CDU member and party leader for the populous state of North Rhine-Westphalia, told public broadcaster WDR 5 that such ideas "really don't fit in an open Europe."

Freedom of movement is an "essential part of European integration," foreign minister and SPD member Frank-Walter Steinmeier told daily Süddeutsche Zeitung on Thursday. To question this "damages Europe and damages Germany," he added.

The row over "poverty migration" within the new grand coalition, which began governing shortly before Christmas, is being described as the right-left alliance's first major disagreement by the German media.


URL:
www.spiegel.de/international/europe/coalition-conflict-merkel-tries-to-defuse-poverty-immigration-debate-a-941737.html


Presenter

Karl

[pieter]

Karl,

I read a long article about it in my Dutch newspaper de Gelderlander.



Rumanians and Bulgarians split German coalition


CSU-leader Horst Seehofer

BERLIN-inside the new German Government coalition rages a conflict over the influx of migrant workers from Romania and Bulgaria.

Fortune hunters

The conservative Bavarian CSU, the sister party of Chancellor Angela Merkel's CDU, warns of the "immigration of poverty ', now since this month the borders are open to Romanians and Bulgarians. ' Who cheat, flies out ', is the motto with which the CSU battle it out against misuse of German social security by ' takers ' from the East.

Extreme Right

The Socialist coalition partner SPD doesn't like such slogans. According to the German Social-democrats CSU leader Horst Seehofer is allegedly fishing in extreme right 'water '.

Ageing

Advocates of labour immigration from Eastern Europe indicate that Germany is ageing at a rapid pace and that the demand for labour force - also-low-skilled labour-the - will increase coming years . They find that there are sufficient remedies for abuse of the right of residence.

Charges

Since January 1 2014 Romanians and Bulgarians in Germany, as in the Netherlands, are allowed to freely settle and work there. CSU leader Seehofer and other critics forsee an attack on the German child benefit, on the assistance and on rent and health charges. 32,000 Romanians and Bulgarians got German child benefit in 2013: 44 percent more than in 2012. In many cases benefit collected for children who still stay in the country of origin.

Translation by www.vertaalmachine.eu/ with moderations from Pieter. This is a short online version of the long paper newspaper version.

Cheers,
Pieter

[pieter]

Romanian immigrants

First impressions

Jan 1st 2014, 17:33 by A.McE.



VICTOR SPIRESAU (pictured, on the right, at Luton airport) had the strange honour of being the first Romanian immigrant to land in Britain on January 1st, the day restrictions on migrant labour from Romania and Bulgaria were relaxed. Citizens of those countries are now allowed to come and work in Britain on the same basis as citizens of other EU countries. Mr Spiresau, who works in construction, said he did not want to “rob” Britain, just make enough money to go home with a nest-egg for his family.

The question haunting Britain’s increasingly agitated debate about immigration is whether characters like Mr Spiresau will define the political narrative of immigration in 2014—or whether a new tranche of arrivals from poorer parts of the old eastern bloc will end up as a drain on the welfare system and public services.

The prime minister, David Cameron, has been under pressure from his Conservative party and beyond to clamp down on welfare entitlements for these newcomers, and has pledged to lengthen the amount of time they must wait before they are able to make a claim on state funds. Statistics suggest that this move may be more sound and fury than practical necessity, though. Just under 2% of people who have arrived in Britain from EU countries since 2010 have claimed unemployment benefit, according to the Labour Force Survey.

Indeed, far from draining the welfare state, the new migrants are likely to boost British coffers. Several recent reports have concluded that migrants pay more in taxes than they took out in welfare payments, because they are mainly young and keen to find work.

Yet Britain does suffer from an anomaly in its welfare set-up, which is likely to trouble Mr Cameron in his political battle with UKIP (an anti-immigration party), his own party’s right-wing and public opinion. Entitlements to claim basic benefits in Britain are relatively generous to newcomers because the social security system is based on means-testing, rather than the contributory principles common in other European countries, which take into account whether a claimant has previously worked and paid into the system.

More inconsistencies arise in practice. Italy, for example, does not offer a “safety net” of benefits that would enable newcomers to claim quickly. In fact, cumbersome bureaucracies and scant entitlements to housing assistance usually deter migrants from claiming very much at all. Spain also curtails access to benefits for those who have not worked unless they can prove extreme hardship. And few Britons would hope to get much out of the Romanian and Bulgarian social security systems, which are poorly administered and frankly impoverished.

Alas for Mr Cameron, changing entitlements is complicated and likely to put him on a collision course with the European Commission and the European Court of Justice. One approach mooted by Open Europe, a think-tank, would be for the British government to garner support for the right to vary welfare payments for newly arrived immigrants. Germany and the Netherlands have signalled sympathy on this point, though the make-up of a new grand coalition in Berlin may not help the case for reform.

In truth, though, Britain’s welfare system, designed for an era of much less labour mobility, is unlikely to be greatly strained by a new wave of incomers. But the lack of reciprocity between its set-up and that of other European countries is a reasonable concern, even if the amount of money at stake is modest. Mr Cameron must therefore hope that the majority of migrants who choose Britain as their destination in 2014 are as intent on working as Mr Spiresau.

[karl]

Pieter

Thank you so much for your reply post of a situation that may or may not break some careers withen the sit of goverment. It has broght to light, some very sensative situations in reguards to Immigration accross our borders. Some chains of thought are good, whilst others are not so good.

No matter of the standing situation of most of our political standing of individuals, this must be addressed in a manner that is conclusive. For as if failure to do so, will be out of their hands if the public needs be to take matters into their own hands. With this, is not an idle thought, for it becomes a Federal matter of resolution and no minister wishes for this to be on his/her record.

Karl

[pieter]

Karl,

A fact is that there is crime from Rumanians and Bulgarians in the Netherlands, Belgium, Great-Britain, Ireland, Spain and Italy. More than for instance Poles and other Central- and Eastern-Europeans (like guest workers or immigrants of the Baltic states; Lithuanians, Latvians and Estonians). There are also some Czech workers in Western-Europe, but not so many like the Poles, Bulgarians and Romanians. These Bulgarian and Romanian criminals (small and large) are from all ethnic groups and not like some people suggest or would like to suggest only from Sinti- or Roman Gypsies from these countries at at the intersection of Central and Southeastern Europe. Thus also from Slav Bulgarians, Latin or Romanesque ethnic Rumanians and maybe some ethnic Hungarians from Romania (I don't know?). The high costs of utilities, low living standards and the failure of the democratic system created a system of corruption, fraud, nepotism and links between organised crime and politicians and civil servants (public officials and authorities) which has consequences in Bulgaria and abroad (= Western-Europe). Bulgarians try to escape the poverty, unemployment, corruption (which limits their chances on the labour market) and thus misery in their country, but also some who bring organised crime from Bulgaria to Western-Europe. The Bulgarian maffia is present in Amsterdam, the Hague, Rotterdam, Berlin, Hamburg and München for sure. Several liquidations in the milieu of the Bulgarian organised crime took place in Amsterdam and other places.

P.S.- There were large demonstrations in Sofia against corruption, the power of the organised crime in the political system and the Bulgarian economy. These protesters are desperate and descent Bulgarians. No doubt of that.

www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=156208

www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=112507

The Romanian Mafia is a term used for organized crime groups based in Romania and composed of ethnic Romanians. Romanian crime groups are active in Romania and in other European Union countries, mostly in northern Italy and Spain. They participate in a wide range of criminal activities ranging from prostitution and extortion to drug trafficking. In recent years Romanian organized criminal groups have expanded their criminal activities in the EU.

Structure

Clans

In Romania there are some gangs active in a wide range of criminal activities. Some of these gangs have expanded their operations to other European Union states. Powerful clans are :

- The Şteoacă clan from Bucharest : the clan is considered one of the largest drug gangs in Bucharest.

- The Duduieni, Caran and Gigi Corsicanu clan : Gigi Corsicanu is the leader of the fans of the Rapid football club. The Duduianu and Caran clans are allegedly involved in prostitution, usury, store and home robberies, drug trafficking.


Gigi Corsicanu during a football match

- The Ghenosu clan from Dâmbovița: Ghenosu clan seems to be enjoying the support of several important people in the police and courts systems. The Ghenosu clan has ties with the Corduneanu clan and with that of the Cămătaru brothers and is allegedly involved in drug trafficking, pimping and racketeering. The Ghenosu clan in particular has expanded its operations into other European countries, mainly Ireland.


The Camataru Brothers, Nutu & Sile - the most feared loan-sharks.

- The Feraru clan : The clan controlled by Feraru was the one which had a prostitution network in Spain; the leader of the group, Costel Feraru, is currently serving a six-year sentence.


Costel Feraru during his arrest


- The Vasile clan from Vrancea : The "Long haired" clan, led by Tătaru Vasile, specializes in illegal sales of contraband cigarettes, usury and car trafficking. In the same county, the group led by Argint Costică specializes in racketeering in Romania and in Italy alike.

- The Clamparu clan from Botosani : the leader of the Clămparu clan, nicknamed Cap-de-Porc ("Pighead"), is involved in the most dangerous prostitution rings. They are also involved in drug trafficking.


Ioan Clamparu (AKA: Nasul, Papa, Cap de porc Pig Head) is a Romanian businessman accused of trafficking of women, mainly to Spain. His group allegedly numbered about a dozen members.

Clamparu has been wanted since 2004 on an international arrest warrant from Romania. Some members of his group have been caught and are serving time. Believed to be living in Spain, Spanish police have failed to catch him even though they have had a number of tips. At one point they learned he was sunning himself on the beach in Mallorca. He blends quietly into the large Romanian community in Spain, yet he is still believed to control prostitution rings among that community. He is said by police to be extremely ruthless.

- The Rohozeanu clan from Arad : The clan of Uţu Rohozeanu, nicknamed "Stephen the Great" or "Vlad Ţepeş", counts as the biggest and most violent organized crime faction in Western Romania, and already has under his belt a conflict with another important clan in the region, the one controlled by Claudiu Baderca of Timişoara. In 2009, they were arrested by the authorities, but not for long.


Uţu Rohozeanu during his arrest by Romanian police


Uţu Rohozeanu

Romanian gangs control most of the prostitution in Spain. They have complete control over prostitution in Catalonia, Valencia and Murcia.

Bulgarian organised crime groups are involved in a wide range of activities, including drug trafficking, cigarette smuggling, human trafficking, prostitution, illicit antiquities trafficking, extortion (often under the cover of ostensible security and insurance companies) and the arms trade. They appear to have connections with the Russian Mafia, Serbian Mafia, and the Italian Cosa Nostra. Bulgarian organised crime groups mainly use security and insurance companies such as SIC and VIS as fronts for criminal activities. Belgium and The Netherlands also saw an expansion of Bulgarian organized crime due to the large-scale immigration of Bulgarian Turks, descendants of indigenous Turkic settlers and Turkified Roma. Bulgarian Turkish clans are involved in drug and human trafficking, prostitution, fraud and extortion and have thus paved the way for other groups composed of Bulgarians and/or Bulgarian Turks. The Bulgarian Turks can hide themselves or meld into the fairly assimilated or integrated Dutch Turkish community. They are a different group with a Bulgarian culture, but due to their Turkish language skills and Turkish looks they are hard to distinguish from ordinary Dutch Turks. I think that there are also connections with the Dutch Turkish organised crime (often drugs related: heroine trade), German Turkish organised crime and Turkish mafia in/from Turkey and other European countries. Due to the open borders to Germany, Germany will face the same problems the Dutch and Belgians have with these criminal Bulgarian elements. The Bavarian CSU and critical CDU politicians are not entirely crazy or false with their objections or fears. But ofcourse as a former political radio journalist/reporter I can understand all sides of the political arena. Thus also the German Social-democrats of the SPD. There are a lot of hard and good working Bulgarian and Romanian workers next to the Polish, Dutch and German construction workers on the building sites of new buildings in Dutch and German towns and cities. And renovators of old houses and buildings who make large hours on their Scaffoldings to walls and roofs. But the German, Dutch and Belgian police, The prosecutor (Prokurator in Polish; the Generalstaatsanwaltschaft in German and 'het Openbaar Ministerie' in Dutch') , courts, criminal intelligence agencies and crime units of the secret services have to be very alert.

Cheers,
Pieter

[Jaga]

Pieter,
very interesting topic of poverty immigration. I will have to take some time to read through it. But I still remember middle 80s and going through Romania and Bulgaria. Romania was in really bad shape especially after Caucescu austerity measures!

[karl]

Pieter

Yes, you have presented a situation that is of concern and that is the Bulgarian and Romanian mafias. Both are a situation of concern. The Bulgarians seem to be the most violent in the manner of conducting business. They generally stay away from the more affluent areas for reasons of tighter security measures and commensuratly better police responses.

The following is a sister to your presentations which I must say, are very well presented..

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2290480/Romanian-migrants-blamed-rise-crime-German-town-Duisburg.html

The above, once viewed is one example of many many that are both deplorable and below standards of expectations of even poor people. The degregation of areas these people are coming into is a problem and expense to public coffers alike.

The endangerment of a cause and effect situation, is the depected abuse may go beyound reason to the effect of public requirement for Federal intervention with action. Or worse, some of the varioua extremest organizations my attempt to make a name for them selves to gain public favour with their own brand of action against these migrant families. Upon ths possibilitiy, action plans needs be compiled for quick entervention in reguards to the safty of these immigrant populations. Upon that point of action, will be the evidence needed for either a set up expulsion zone or at the extreme, violation by default of the EU rules of freedom of travel accross and onto German soil by undesirables. With this as the fault line, then explusion of so named undesireables out of the country with out option of return.

In short, a closure of the border to those of Rumanian and Bulgfarian. They are making their own bed, and may end up sleeping in what they have created. Time may be the judge of the future in this matter.

Karl

[pieter]

Karl,

This is a good example of what Duisburg is facing. These are the new immigrants from Central- and Eastern-Europe. But (for our non-European, Northern-American friends; with their own problems with various ethnic groups in their American inner cities, towns and subburbs; from the latin-American/Southern-American drugscartels, African-American gangs, Portorican and Cuban criminals, Irish Gangster and Sicilian-American and Russian mafia) Europe has a longer history with it's own native European underclass, little, middle big and larger crime. The problem of the side affect of immigration for decades was ignored by politicians from the centre-left, centre-right, left and right. Out of fear of being labeled 'racist', 'fascist', 'xenophobe', 'discriminatory', 'intolerant', 'not-open minded', 'reactionairy', 'chauvinist', 'conservative' (The difference between Europe and the USA is that in many parts of Europe conservative was labeled as backward, old fashionate, 'bad', 'negative' and a sort of political swearword, and socialist or social-democrat/labour and liberal as positive, because it meant progressive, leftwing, forward thinking, democratic and 'good'), 'far-right', 'extreme-right', 'rightwing populist', 'inhumane', 'nationalistic' ( a bad word in Europe for many decades; especially in Germany and the Netherlands, due to the guilt feeling about collaboration with the Nazi's of certain compatriots), 'against foreigners', 'ethnocentric', 'isolationalist', 'autarkic', 'solipsistic', 'cold calculating rational', 'neo-liberal' (= a swearword for objectivist, libertarian, free market oriented, Laissez faire thinkers), 'National-capitalist', 'National-socialist' (Nazi), 'authoritarian/totalitarian'. As a result of that fear and thus 'political correctness' politicians of all democratic parties, Union leaders, employers organisations, churchleaders and people of non-governmental organisations (NGO's) didn't dare to criticize newcommers; the immigrants, the guestworkers, the foreigners, aliens that came to Western-Europe in the fiftees, sixtees, seventies, eightees, ninetees, the first ten years of this century, and today.

Subsidies for migrant organisations, and investments in migrant neighborhoods (housing projects, social security and etc.), to much liberties and to little demands for newcommers, created the gap between the migrant communities and native Europeans. In some area's native Europeans were driven out large city neighborhoods, city centres, towns, suburbian area's and some villages by immigrants who came en mass, gave birth to more children and did not integrate nor assimilate. 'White', European, natives of the various Western-European countries moved to other, white native European neighborhoods, towns, villages and suburbs that were stil native European (inhabited by compatriots). So segregation took place in Western-Europe. A sort of voluntarian Apartheid, which was accepted by both the Native European majority and the large migrant minorities.

Migrant youth Brussels clash with native Belgian Hooligans (youth) and both groups clash with the Belgian riot police


In a few decades city centres and old (poorer) city neighborhoods and the poorer or neglected suburbs became increasingly inhabited by migrants and poor whites, or the native European underclass of unskilled workers, unemployed, anti-social elements. This low class had to share space with the newcommers of immigrants from first Southern-Europe (Italy, Spain, Portugal and Greece; the First Wave of mass immigration), and later the Maghreb (Northern-Africa; mainly from Morocco), Turkey and our former colonies Suriname in Southern-America and the Dutch Antilles. After them came new waves of Turkish and Moroccan immigrants; the families of Turkish and Moroccan guestworkers (wives and children, and new partners for the children and grandchildren of the first Moroccan and Turkish immigrants). These immigrants from Turkey and Morocco are (mainly) Sunni-Muslim Turks, Sunni Muslim Turkish Kurds, Allawite Turks and Kurds, Moroccan Berbers and Arabs (a minority, because most Moroccans in the Netherlands and Belgium are Berber speaking Berbers from the mountainous region of Rif in northern Morocco. Many Turks and Kurds by the way came from an mountainous Turkish region too; Eastern-Anatolia, a central massif composed of uplifted blocks and downfolded troughs, covered by recent deposits and giving the appearance of a plateau with rough terrain, is wedged between two folded mountain ranges. So many Turkish and Moroccan guestworkers had a poor farmers mountain mentality. A different planet than the Modern and Urban Western-Europe with it's modern infrastructure, new cities, towns and suburbs. You could and can speak of a 'Clash of civilizations during several decades'.

Jaga saw this clip before. It shows a macho Moroccan boy who removes the teacher from the class.

The other pupils or students look intimidated. They don't do anything. Is it group pressure or fear?

This kind of behavior inside and outside school, on streets, squares, boulevards, parks and public places pisses Dutch people off. This is a reason why some of them vote for Geert Wilders PVV (Freedom party) or don't vote at all. Ofcourse there are Dutch thugs under the people who bully, harass and attack teachers too. But intimidation, aggression and anti-social behavior comes more from this side.

Dutch reporter is hit by a tin of Coca Cola


Moroccan youth harass people of the hood and bully/intimidate other kids


People are afraid that poor, uneducated and anti-social Romanians will show the same behavior and thus disrespect in their neighborhoods, towns and cities. They don't know these Romanians and Bulgarians, but they do know the Moroccans, Turks, Nigerians and Somalians of their neighborhood. And they consider them a natural disaster which spoils their lives. Their life is stress, anxiety, full of worries and anger and frustration. When they move away the segregation will continue further.

The differences between the native Europeans and the migrants from these poor area's were huge. There was a gap in education, civilization, technical skills, social and emotional intelligence, customs, traditions, and religious, social-, political-, economical-, financial-, psychological-, philosophical-, human-, sociological-, pedagogical/didactic, parenting (or child rearing) views. Not only people looked different, dressed different, lived different, and lived in different social-cultural, financial-economical and political conditions and societies, there was also a total lack of understanding of the other from both the Native European (majority) and the foreign, allien, migrant (minorities) communities. There were not a lot of relationships, friendships, social contact and communication between the two groups during the decades that they lived side by side, but in different neighborhoods and streets in the same cities and towns. A lot of Turkish and Moroccan children and teenagers speak bad Dutch or with a heavy accent, because their parents speak Turkish, Kurd, Berber or Moroccan arabic at home. Often these parents are illiterate, poor, have a bad health (the health of migrant people is worse than the health of native Europeans) and often there is a clash of civilizations and generations within guestworkers (migrant) families. Their sons are spoiled and their daughters are hold tight, a closely monitored and watch by their families and communities (a honor culture of shame, virginity and absolute rule of men; first the father, then the brothers, then the uncles, then the nephews, then the mothers, aunts, sisters, the women of the community). Some boys look down on their father whom they feared when they were little. Their father is a guestworker with a low paid job in a factory, a company or a little migrant shop. The sons grow up between the Muslim culture of the mosque, their authoritarian home (with father the patriarch) and the temptations of the street with the hip hop/rap culture, street gangs, drugs, prosititution, vandalism, hooliganism, streetcrime and the survival of the fittest (rivalry with other groups of boys of the same ethnic background of boys and younbg men from other ethniuc groups).

Somalians attack Dutch reporter after she asks a question about their Qat use


Older boys, adolescents in time become serious, study, work, develop themselves and get their own families. Some become drop outs, enter crime and become lover boys (pimps of young Dutch, Moroccan, Turkish, Eastern-European or other girls and women), hustlers, pushers, drugstraffickers (called drugsrunners in Dutch), armed robers, neighborhood thugs (terrorisingm both native Dutch people as people from their own communities; an example; in a Dutch city a Moroccan family was harassed, terrorised and attacked by a large group of Moroccan thugs and they moved out of their neighborhood. The same thing happened to other people, native Dutch, Surinamese, Moluccan and etc.) A new development is that decent, assimilated/integrated Moroccan families (middle class/high class) escape the poor migrant neighborhoods which are dominated by Moroccans, Turks, Kurds and new migrants from the Middle east, Kosovo, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Tunesia, Algeria, Egypt, Syria, Iran, Afghanistan, Somalia, Africa, Bulgaria, Romania, Poland, and other countries. There were serious problems with other migrant groups too. Mainly with Somalians and Nigerians, who have their own organised crime and gangs.

Can you imagine that the Dutch, Belgians and Germans fear the influx of bad elements of Bulgaria and Romania. Because these criminals will add their activities to our own native European and migrant organised crime. People just fear that things are going out of hand like in Duisburg, the French, British and Swedish cities. The Bulgarian-Turkish criminals can easily form an alliance with the Turkish and Moroccan organised crime in our countries. The Romanian thugs in Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, Italy and Spain really are a problem. It's no joke. Murder, rape, roberies, theft, pickpocketing, human traficking, prostitution, anti-social behavior (like in Duisburg; Karl's [your] example) and tensions between ethnic groups. The Western-European populations don't want that and that is the reason that the rightwing populist parties, the far right and the anti-European (EU) forces gain strength and popularity.

Extreme violence France 2005


London 2011


Finally I want to say that this story is not black and white like I wrote it down above here. I love my country and you can live good and safely in large parts of my country. There are a lot of good immigrant families and individuals with a 100% foreign background. I am not xenophobe nor racist. I like the Moroccans and Turks who achieved something with their lives. I like the achievers amongst the migrants. The students who reached the universities from a poor, uneducated, guestworkers background, who had to work in the evenings, some days and weekends to earn their college money. The Turkish, Kurd and Moroccan police officers, lawjers, teachers, trainers, coaches, entrepreneurs, politicians, civil servants, doctors, dentists, skilled workers, carpenters, tinsmiths, electricians, professional welders, gardeners, construction workers, retailers and factory workers. I don't look down on them or envy them. They urned their place in our society. Problems I have with the criminal elements, the drop outs, the anti-socials, the thugs, the terrorists, the lover boys, bullies, gangsters, drugsrunners and fundamentalists (Salafists who reject the West, freedom and democracy) from their and our midst. And many good Moroccans and Somalians reject the bad elements from their communities. They are fed up with it or them, but don't know how to stop them and it.

Cheers,
Pieter

P.S.- Every group and nation has good and bad elements. So under the Polish immigrants in the Netherlands there are good and bad elements too. The bad elements are annoying for the native Dutch and Polish immigrants, because Polish immigrants sometimes have bad experiances with Polish criminals, or Poles who use to much drugs and alcohol. Again there a problem makers in every community. My mother once, a few years back was shocked by the low level and faul language of some Poles she saw on a Dutch street. People of very low level, bad people, she said with disdain!

[pieter]

Jaga, Karl, Kaima, Eric, John, Nicetoe and others,

What I want to say is that the countries who doesn't have faced mass immigration like we do in Western-Europe and Southern-Europe that they have to take care and watch out in what they do. Please be strict, be protective of your own societies, keep it like it is and focus on quality immigration. You have to be tough. Only allow people into your countries who are integrated and assimilated abroad. How? In the case of Poland. By Polish language courses abroad, lessons about Polish culture and history. Instruction about Polish customs, traditions, social codes, habits, mentality, Roman-Catholicism, the Polish education system, Polish traffic, the Polish economy, the Polish currency, the Polish political system and etc. Before immigrants enter Poland they can go to Polish language classes and Polish instruction courses given by Polish teachers, coaches, trainers, and experts abroad who are connected to the Polish State secretary (Ministry of foreign affairs) and the Polish embassies abroad.

Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, the Baltic states, Croatia, Slovenia, and in the future the Ukraine, Russia and Belarus can avoid situations like we have in Western-Europe. Russia already has the problem of it's own domestic terrorism and ethnic tensions. You simply can't let anyone in! That is tough and sad, but that is the reality. Other continents, regions and countries in the world have to solve their own problems. We can't solve them for them and can't receive their traumatized, shell shocked, PTSD, and radical/extremist civilians, minorities, dissidents and others forever and whitout boundaries or limitations. Western countries look at 'human capital', people with education, life and workexperiance they can use. The political correctness, tolerance and open minded and soft attitudes of the past are gone.

Authorities, populations, politicians, activisits, civil servants and entrepreneurs; people have become tough towards new newcommers. Also old migrants who have become new citizens of our countries have their reservations towards compatriots from their old heimat (homeland) who come to their new country, because they know that to many of them will endanger their integrated and assimilated position. And they are certainly tough towards newcommers from other countries than they came from. Turkish and Moroccan immigrants are not so fond of Romanian and Bulgarian newcommers in general. They see the problems they cause and that reminds them of the problems they faced due to the bad elements from their own communities in the past. They don't want that again in their neighborhoods. And their native Dutch neighbors agree with them.

Cheers,
Pieter

P.S.- The world has to solve problems of war, civil war and poverty and hunger in the places (countries and regions) and continents where they are. Mass immigration to Europe has proven that it doesn't work. Immigration to the USA, Australia and South-Africa have proven to be working, because these immigrants contributed to their societies and economies and integrated. There is a world of difference between these immigrants and the immigrants from abroad who came to Europe.

[pieter]

I know that Poland has immigrants from Vietnam and the Ukraine. These people should be treated descently and fairly, but in the same time they should integrate, assimilate and thus learn to speak Polish fluently, accept the Polish rules and laws, learn Polish customs and traditions and coexist and work together with Poles. They may look differently but in time the new Ukrainian-Poles, Vietnamese Poles and the African-Poles will be accepted as Poles, because they speak the language, know the rules and participate in the Polish society, economy and political system.

Here a few examples of Poland as an immigration country



Economic success makes Poland destination for immigrants
By Paul Henley
BBC News


A Vietnamese immigrant sells clothes in a shop in Warsaw

Poland is Europe's least multicultural society, but could be on the cusp of becoming a destination for a new wave of migrants.

"When I first came here, I used to be scared to go out, always looking around in case the police caught me. I lived in constant fear."

Qui's story of being an illegal immigrant will be familiar to millions all over Europe. But he has come to a country that is hardly known as a magnet for migrants - Poland.

He is from Vietnam and part of one of Poland's biggest ethnic minorities. (The link began when both countries had communism in common.)

Qui works in the clothes trade in Warsaw. And these days, he has his own market stall, a family, an apartment in a concrete high-rise block on the outskirts of Warsaw… and peace of mind.

He is legal, having benefitted from an amnesty organised, earlier this year, by a government newly-aware that its economy needs people like him.

He says it feels like a huge weight has been lifted off his shoulders.

Qui and his wife Thiem met in Poland and they are proud of their new status and of their host country.

"Our son has a Polish name", they say, "because we live in Poland, we love Poland and we feel tied to it". They talk of his future university education there.


Changing capital

Venture a kilometre or two outside the historic centre of Warsaw and you do not have to look very hard to see how profoundly the capital is changing.

Bakalarska Market is a vast clothes, electrical and food retail centre run almost exclusively by non-Poles.

Music and voices from Vietnam, Bulgaria, Turkey, Nigeria, China, Ukraine and Belarus are proof of a nascent ethnic mix that would have been unimaginable until recently.

In the last two years, the number of applications for work permits in Poland has doubled.

Eurostat figures show only 0.1% of people in Poland were born abroad, the lowest figure in the European Union.

Before World War II, a quarter of Poland's population was Jewish, German or Ukrainian. But by 1947, virtually all those people had either been murdered or banished.

Stripped of their sovereignty as part of the Soviet bloc, Poles were left with their blood ties and their Catholicism to give them a sense of nationhood. And communism - as well as an entirely understandable persecution complex - helped keep the country in a kind of ethnic isolation.

But a long list of factors suggests the country's monoculture could soon be a thing of the past.

As most of Europe slows, economically, Poland picks up. It was the only EU member of 27 to avoid recession during the crisis of 2008-2009 and it continues to buck trends.

At the same time, it has labour shortages exacerbated by the emigration of millions of workers.

The man in charge of immigration policy, Rafal Rogala, seems well aware there are changes in store.

"I feel proud", says the Minister for Foreigners, "that Poland is a destination country for economic migrants. We understand them perfectly because, up until now, we have been the economic migrants."

"Buried deep within us is this gene of openness toward foreigners. We understand the need to improve your fate and build a life elsewhere. Now it is a question of education, of getting our people used to the idea that we are a destination country for lots of foreigners who will want to live and work here".


Paul Norris and his family emigrated from the UK

Economic circumstances

Mr Rogala admits that immigration might not be a matter of choice, given the economic circumstances.

He has reservations shared by western European politicians whose countries have already lived through an influx. And the British model is not one he is keen to copy.

In no way is he suggesting, he says, "that we want to become a multicultural society. Both Chancellor Merkel and President Sarkozy admitted that multi-culturalism had not passed the test".

The other end of Poland's new immigration spectrum is every bit as surprising as that represented by the family from Vietnam.

In Wroclaw, Poland's fourth city, 300km (200 miles) south-west of the capital, hundreds of expatriates from the world's richest nations came together for the Christmas party of the city's chamber of commerce.

American bankers networked with German PR officials and Danish software executives, all of whom have recently made Poland their home.




Vietnamese families make up one of Poland's biggest ethnic minorities

They compared large suburban homes, golf club membership, theatre visits and gourmet meals out.

Paul Norris arrived in Wroclaw from Surrey in England four months ago with his French wife, Catherine, and their two children. He is relishing his role as head of a fast-growing IT team at Credit Suisse's base there.

Emilie, 10, and Louis, 8, are enjoying Polish lessons at their international school.

Catherine might wrestle with the nuances of Polish life, but she, too, is glad they have made the move.

"I have met lots of really nice Polish people," she says.

"To start with, I thought they could be quite rude in shops, not particularly tolerant of foreigners. But I think they are quite private people and you have to understand them a little bit better."

"I have been reading about Polish history and they have been part of so many empires, people wanting bits of them. So it's no wonder the older people are as they are, a little defensive."

The family are discussing how long they will stay in Poland. They do not rule out the long-term.

Professor Krystyna Iglicka is an economist at the Lazarski School of Commerce and Law in Warsaw and advisor to the government on immigration.

"We need hard-working immigrants", she says, "eager to contribute to this nation. Ironically, we need exactly the same people you [the UK] got from us in the year 2004."

Just as western Europe got the ubiquitous "Polish plumber", she says, Poland got the Ukrainian nanny and the Belarusian builder.

And she hopes they are the front-runners of many more.

Thanks to its economic success, the face of Poland might never be the same again.




Ukrainians lead rise in Poland's immigrant workforce
04.03.2013 10:44

Some 244,000 workers from Poland's eastern neighbours gained official employment in Poland in 2012, with Ukrainians leading the way.


View of the construction works of the A2 highway linking Warsaw and Berlin

The figures, which were compiled by the Ministry of Labour, reveal a rise of 80,000 since 2011, with 164,000 workers from the east finding official employment that year. Since 2006, Polish employers have been entitled to hire workers from Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, Moldova and Georgia for a short period without a permit. Initially this was for a three-month period, but last year it was raised to six months. However, according to the Warsaw-based Energy for Europe Foundation (Fundacja Energia dla Europy), Poland needs to absorb at least 5.2 million foreigners by 2050, so as to combat a severe demographic drop. Speaking with the Rzeczpospolita daily, demographer Professor Krystyna Iglicka from Warsaw's Lazarski University claimed that Poland needs to do more to encourage foreigners to put down roots. “Poland is not doing anything to encourage those who are coming over to stay longer,” she argued.
Data compiled by Eurostat indicates that Poland's population will have dropped from 38.2 million to 29 million by 2050. Anxieties regarding the demographic drop prompted the current government to raise the national retirement age to 67 for both sexes last year, a move that sparked a wave of protests.
According to work agency OTTO, Ukrainians are most frequently employed in low rung industrial jobs. Agency spokesman Joanna Przemyslanska-Wlosek told Rzeczpospolita that Poles themselves would rather accept such jobs in the UK or Germany, where the wages are higher. (nh)