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Post by scmecca on Apr 24, 2014 7:40:52 GMT -7
I'm tracing my family tree and found a Petition for Naturalization for my Great Grandfather. He indicated that he was born in Sewpos, Russia Poland and the date of birth is October 19, 1882. I cannot not find this town on any old maps. Has anyone heard of this town?
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Post by Jaga on Apr 24, 2014 7:47:00 GMT -7
I'm tracing my family tree and found a Petition for Naturalization for my Great Grandfather. He indicated that he was born in Sewpos, Russia Poland and the date of birth is October 19, 1882. I cannot not find this town on any old maps. Has anyone heard of this town? csmecca, the name of the town was probably changed. Do you have any more details about where possibly this town was, how big was it? "Sewpos" is not the Polish name. "ew" might come from "Polish modified e" which reads like "eu". The closest name to "Sewpos" according to my mind is "Sewastopol". But this town is in Crimea or near Crimea. |
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Post by scmecca on Apr 24, 2014 8:34:09 GMT -7
Also, on the petition for naturalization is mentions Nicholas II, Emperor of all the Russias. Maybe it's in Russia and not Poland.
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Post by Eric on Apr 24, 2014 11:08:14 GMT -7
I can't find anything resembling "Sewpos," either. Are you able to scan the document to show us what it looks like? Perhaps that will help greatly.
At the time Poland was part of the Russian Empire, so, even though it was its own kingdom, it was ultimately ruled over by the Russian emperor.
As for Sevastopol, I highly doubt that could be the right city. Other historical names in Russian and other languages aren't even close to "Sewpos."
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Post by scmecca on Apr 24, 2014 12:10:12 GMT -7
Please see attached document. I appreciate your willingness to help. |
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Post by Eric on Apr 24, 2014 17:21:20 GMT -7
 Now, this is really strange. Unfortunately, U.S. immigration officials at this time were notorious for misspellings, misidentifications, and so on. Part of the reason was just plain ignorance - it's a large world, after all, many immigrants didn't speak English, and communicating even basic information was difficult. Handwriting was also, shall we say, florid and hard to read, or barely-literate and hard to read, so when this document was typed up, it was probably prepared as well as the typist could do from the original handwritten materials. "Russia Poland" is a very strange way of saying that Poland was within the Russian Empire. Just as the USSR wasn't all just Russia, the Russian Empire wasn't all just Russia, either. So, since Poland is indicated, that's most likely where he was from. Given the names listed in the document (except, perhaps, "Frank," but, of course, Americanization of names was quite common), Polish seems almost entirely likely. But "Sewpos"... I have absolutely no idea. It certainly doesn't sound Polish. Or Russian. Or Belarussian or Ukrainian. Vaguely Lithuanian, but only because I'm trying to find something in this, and, otherwise, I wouldn't even say Lithuanian. It's too bad the "last foreign residence" part of the form wasn't completed. If that had a location in the Poland or elsewhere in the Russian Empire it might have given some more clues. So, unfortunately, I'm at a complete loss. I can see "Sewpos" very clearly in the typed document, but I have no idea what it's supposed to be. It sounds almost like it came from a different planet, not a Slavic place. As I said, this is probably the best the typist could do from a handwritten document that he or she had a difficult time reading, on top of fifty gazillion other documents that poor typist had to try to read and type up. (If you had any original handwritten documents, or any others, really, about his life, that would be wonderful, because then we might be able to fill in some more pieces of the puzzle. Birth certificate? Baptismal record? Passport?) So sorry I couldn't help you further with the information contained in this document, but thanks for sharing. If you have any other information, I'd be happy to help more, but I think I've gone as far as I can with this unknown "Sewpos" for the time being. |
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Post by Jaga on Apr 24, 2014 22:58:56 GMT -7
Hi, the last name of your great grandfather sounds Polish. It was probably written in Polish like the last name here: www.familylink.com/person/Piotr-Ci%C4%99%C5%BCniak/69735101-1000261(df) Ciężniak I will look at this document in more detail during the weekend. His parents had very Polish first names: Stanislaw, Boleslaw, Cecylia (although it is written Cecelia). Frank was probably originally Franciszek. Name of the town is still a mystery for me. The "ew" could be modified from "ę" like in Sępopol. Eric, I am not surprised that it is written "Russia, Poland," since lots of Poland was occupied by Russia. Eric needs to remember that these data were given to American immigration administration, not to Russia occupants, so Frank wanted to highlight his Polish origin. |
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Post by kaima on Apr 24, 2014 23:35:30 GMT -7
View AttachmentNow, this is really strange. Unfortunately, U.S. immigration officials at this time were notorious for misspellings, misidentifications, and so on. Part of the reason was just plain ignorance - it's a large world, after all, many immigrants didn't speak English, and communicating even basic information was difficult. Handwriting was also, shall we say, florid and hard to read, or barely-literate and hard to read, so when this document was typed up, it was probably prepared as well as the typist could do from the original handwritten materials. "Russia Poland" is a very strange way of saying that Poland was within the Russian Empire. Just as the USSR wasn't all just Russia, the Russian Empire wasn't all just Russia, either. So, since Poland is indicated, that's most likely where he was from. Given the names listed in the document (except, perhaps, "Frank," but, of course, Americanization of names was quite common), Polish seems almost entirely likely. But "Sewpos"... I have absolutely no idea. It certainly doesn't sound Polish. Or Russian. Or Belarussian or Ukrainian. Vaguely Lithuanian, but only because I'm trying to find something in this, and, otherwise, I wouldn't even say Lithuanian. It's too bad the "last foreign residence" part of the form wasn't completed. If that had a location in the Poland or elsewhere in the Russian Empire it might have given some more clues. So, unfortunately, I'm at a complete loss. I can see "Sewpos" very clearly in the typed document, but I have no idea what it's supposed to be. It sounds almost like it came from a different planet, not a Slavic place. As I said, this is probably the best the typist could do from a handwritten document that he or she had a difficult time reading, on top of fifty gazillion other documents that poor typist had to try to read and type up. (If you had any original handwritten documents, or any others, really, about his life, that would be wonderful, because then we might be able to fill in some more pieces of the puzzle. Birth certificate? Baptismal record? Passport?) So sorry I couldn't help you further with the information contained in this document, but thanks for sharing. If you have any other information, I'd be happy to help more, but I think I've gone as far as I can with this unknown "Sewpos" for the time being. I am quoting Eric in full because he covers the topic pretty well and I wish to express some views that are in agreement but also removed culturally, geographically and generationally. Culturally that he knows the Russian world quite well. I would like him to play with converting "Sewpos" into Cyrillic and playing with variations of that re-transcribing phonetically into English, to see if another variation may come out that may give a clue to a modern Polish town. Also culturally, with the location given as Russian Poland (taking liberties to convert it into a historically more accurate phrase) and the name of Ciezniak is a Lemko / Rusyn (old Ruthenian, perhaps called Ukrainian in far eastern & former Poland-Lithuania, parts that became Russian Poland). So I would expect to find the location in SE Poland or across the border in the Rusyn areas of Ukraine. Geographically removed since I come from south of the Polish border, in the former Hungarian Rusyn area (across the river and on the north side of the Carpathian mountains the Poles call us Lemkos). Now I love Eric's comment about "from a different planet", as the Hungarians pretty well are so. They do have Sewpös - I swear they HAD Sewpös when I looked this over quickly before. Now Murphey is helping me and nothing is working. But then, Sewpös seemed to be the name of a Hungarian artist rather than a village. stevemorse.org/ellis2/ellisgold.htmlRats. It appears the gold form is down right now. Try it yourself later/ It is also at www.jewishgen.org/databases/eidb/ellisgold.html Now Eric is hard on the US Burro-ocracy. At Ellis Island they had many translators and did quite a job of proccessing people and got many things right. Mis-spelling of names is often falsely ascribed to Ellis Island, but at that point they took the names directly from the ships manifest, as you board. So a Russian, Polish, Lemko or Hungarian name may be spelled phonetically by a German purser as he records passengers. Accuracy drops as literacy if the immigrant cannot spell his/her own name. If they grew up literate in Cyrillic, they may not have known an official or accepted transliteration to the Roman. Now I played around with Cieziak on Ellis Island at www.ellisisland.org/search/wsese_02a.asp?LNM=CIEZNIAK&PLNM=CIEZNIAK&bSYR=1897&bEYR=1907&last_kind=0&town_kind=0&ship_kind=0&TOWN=null&SHIP=null&RF=0ÐS=37ÐS=40ÐS=41ÐS=45& Ciasniak 96% Ciosniak 95% ?iozniac 94% Cierniak 94% Ciarniak 93% Cierniek 93% Cezniak 92% Cierniok 92% Cieszniuk 92% Cieznak 92% Cesniak 91% Ciesnik 91% Cizniac 91% ?esniak 90% Ceszniak 90% Chizniak 90% Ciesmak 90% Ciesznak 90% Cisnniak 90% Coerniak 90% Chisniak 89% Ciosnak 89% Cismiek 89% Cisniok 89% Cuisniak 89% Siazniak 89% ?osniak 88% Choosniec 88% You have searched on other forums, but you were reluctant to share relevant information with us. How much searching have you done on your own? What avenues have you explored? Kai |
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Post by Eric on Apr 25, 2014 17:10:41 GMT -7
As for "Sewpos" in Cyrillic, I can't. Cyrillic is written based on pronunciation, and since I don't have a clue what language "Sewpos" is supposed to be, meaning I don't know how it's pronounced, I have no way of writing it in Cyrillic.
It's interesting you found a Hungarian name that's similar, but Hungary is not Poland, and it's extraordinarily unlikely that he was born in Hungary and then moved to Poland. It could be possible, but I think it's quite unlikely, because there's no mention of Hungary at all on this document.
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Post by scmecca on Apr 27, 2014 9:24:56 GMT -7
Okay, I'm almost positive that I found him on a passenger list. It indicates that he is going an address that I know is the same as some of my other ancestors. As Eric indicated the previous form must have misspelling and misidentification on it. I attached the passenger list. Is it possible for you look at the last residence? I can't find it on the internet but you might know as soon as you see it. Thanks again for your willingness to help. Attachments:
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Post by scmecca on Apr 27, 2014 9:27:10 GMT -7
I forgot to mention he is on the 18th line of the passenger list. Thanks.
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Post by Eric on Apr 27, 2014 16:50:42 GMT -7
Thanks for posting that list. I'll have to look into it some more when I'm not busy cooking dinner (and I hate to cook!). However, from a brief glance it didn't seem as if there's too much additional information I could use to figure out where he comes from. I'll get back to you.
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Post by Jaga on Apr 27, 2014 22:29:43 GMT -7
Is this Franz Czesniak or Czesnak?
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Post by scmecca on Apr 28, 2014 7:09:02 GMT -7
Is this Franz Czesniak or Czesnak? Yes that is the correct name. |
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Post by Eric on Apr 28, 2014 8:39:48 GMT -7
Is this Franz Czesniak or Czesnak? Yes that is the correct name. Which one? |
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