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Post by Nictoshek on Dec 7, 2015 4:38:08 GMT -7
WOW Karl ! I mean.....did you REALLY ??
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Post by karl on Dec 7, 2015 6:44:46 GMT -7
Nictoshek We were young and dedicated and bored. Our equipment {tanks} were American taken out of moth balls and then rebuilt for our use. There was some resentment between the American crews and us, so in this manner, a considerable amount of this was worked out in this manner. For this was during the cold war years, and there was the real and present danger of a Soviet invasion. We were crossed trained for all postions in the Panzer, for if one was killed or incapacitated, we could take over that postion if necessary. Those things were not built for confort, we wore padded helmets with ear phones for crew to crew communications. The enterior is very crowded with equipment and every thing it seemed to be some thing to hit against. The viberation from the tracks was noisy when in motion and the motor noise. It took a great deal of practice to operate for the view plate was not very large with blind spot withen two meters in front of the vehicle. Backing was not without help from the front mirroes and the commanders observations and directions. We did not suffer from mechanical difficulties whilst in the field, thank goodness for that. There was the following panzer retrivel units always in the back ground in the case of a track pin breakage. But, for track adjustments we had to do that and it was very hard work, for every thing dealing with the track was a hassel. If it was cold out side, it was cold inside, if it was hot out side, it was hot inside, those things were never built for comfort. But, we were young, and my assigned orders were to serve. At that time, unless to volunteer for an extension, our time of service was 9 months. More or less was I following unintentually with my father I never really knew. He fought first in Poland, then North Africa and was killed with his crew in Russia. His machine was the Panzerjäger StuG 4 similar to the url: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmgesch%C3%BCtz_IVI was living in Denmark when the message reached Auntie and she set me down and explained the situation. At that time, being so young and never really knowing him, I was not sure what to think. Being you folks are Polish, I was hesitant to post this with hopes you would not find it offensive. Karl |
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Post by pieter on Dec 7, 2015 8:04:42 GMT -7
Back to today, the democratic army of Germany.
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Post by pieter on Dec 7, 2015 8:15:50 GMT -7
Many of these German Fallschirmjäger died in Holland in Mai 1940. Especially in Rotterdam and The Hague, because their planes were shot down, or because they were killed in the air by Dutch machine gun or gun fire and because they were killed on the ground. The Dutch Royal Marines give a great resistance in Rotterdam. The Germans called them the Schwarze Teufel ( the Black Devils). The Dutch Marines defended the river bank and the bridges of the Meuse for days against the German Fallschirmjäger, the the paratroopers of the German Luftrwaffe. They killed a and wounded a lot of Germans there. These Meuse river bank and bridges were a bloody affair for the Germans. The Marines were tough and fierce fighters. In Wikipedia they write this about the role of the Netherlands Marine Corps: In World War II, a Korps Mariniers unit in Rotterdam preparing to ship out to the Dutch East Indies successfully defended the bridges across the Maas, preventing German paratroopers in the center of the city from rendezvousing with conventional German infantry. The Germans ended the stalemate by bombing Rotterdam. The threat of an attack by marines caused its German captain to scuttle the Antilla in Aruba in 1940. When the surrender was declared and the Dutch soldiers came out of their positions, the German commander who was expecting a full battalion of men was stunned to see only a few Dutch Marines emerge in their green uniforms. He ordered his men to salute them out of respect for their bravery and determination and labeled them Zwarte duivels ( The Black Devils).  Dutch Marines surrender to the German Wehrmacht on 15 May 1940 after very tough battles with the German Fallschirmjäger and other Wehrmacht units.  Marine Corps monument in RotterdamSome Mariniers later joined the Princess Irene Brigade to fight against the Germans. They distinguished themselves in combat near the Dutch city of Tilburg in the autumn of 1944. Starting in 1943, the United States Marine Corps trained and equipped a new brigade, the Mariniersbrigade, of the Korps Mariniers at Camp Lejeune and Camp Davis in North Carolina in preparation for amphibious landings against the Japanese in the Dutch East Indies. The Japanese surrendered before such landings were needed, but the Mariniersbrigade, fully trained and equipped, left North Carolina in six transports in 1945 and fought against the Indonesians in their National Revolution for independence. It was part of the A Division, which was itself commanded by a Korps Mariniers officer. It was disbanded in 1949. My parents remembered one song the Waffen-SS and Wehrmacht soldiers sung both in Warsaw and Rotterdam: And in Rotterdam my father heard this song too: My father has a sort of allergic reaction when he hears these songs. His face becomes read of anger and he becomes very irritated and agigated. These are songs of the enemy, the occupiers and the bombers of his city, and the people who murdered his (German jewish) neighbours. It had an deep impact on his life. Despite that all he loved German art, German literature, German classical music and German movies. That is a Contradictio in terminis to me. But maybe I think to dogmatic and orthodox. My father has become more mild towards the new Germany. And we can talk about for instance Angela Merkel without him becoming irritated. Helmut Schmidt was in his eyes a typical Kraut, a Luftwaffe pilot, and therefor a war criminal and the eyes of my father.
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Post by Nictoshek on Dec 7, 2015 8:35:27 GMT -7
In the heated passions of war, many things are lost of course, such as innocence. But the camaraderie among front line warriors whatever side they may be on, endures forever.
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Post by karl on Dec 7, 2015 14:03:22 GMT -7
Pieter
Your father has seen many things in his life time, not the least the destruction and war time effects upon his country. He survived all and now see the present as it is, he needs be not held against his feelings for he has earnt his place here on earth. His a very well educated professional person, he has been successful in his business life, he has raised his children in the best manner he seen fit and taught his children his honesty and realistic view of the world as it is and to cope with it successfully.
Please do not feel I am soft peddling, for I am not, simply reflecting upon descriptions revealed through our various conversations and upon the forum. I have not ever met your father, but, I am confident I would like him with both admiration for his courage and high values in character and as a humanbeing.
Karl
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Post by pieter on Dec 7, 2015 14:50:18 GMT -7
Dear Karl, I respect your opinion greatly and I agree with you completely. A son can be rebellious to his father and in his foolish pride, search for independence, and wish to be authentic and unique as an individual, personality and character, tries to be the opposite or different than his father. It is a classical theme in mythology, in biblical and other religious stories, psycho analysis, family constellations, psychology, theatrical plays (Shakespeare's Hamlet), literature, cinema and tv sitcoms (soaps like Dynasty, Dallas and As the World Turns, and the British BBC sitcom Eastenders). I don't consider you soft peddling, but a man of experience with life, knowledge and human relationships, being a father, husband, son, colleage and friend of people. you speak the truth about my father and that is your strength and wisdom. I like your Nordic Danish-German pragmatism and humanism. My father is marked by the war indeed. He saw his burning, collapsing, ruined city as a 12 year old boy. From one moment in a sunny May day a old Dutch city with chanal houses like Amsterdam, Dordrecht, Copenhagen and Gdańsk today, it was turned in a flat landscape of burned wood, piles of bricks and stones, burnt trees and buildings. During the war he cycled through a Warsaw 1945 like empty landscape which was once a city.  Old Rotterdam, 1895 New RotterdamIt was rebuild after the war in not such a beautiful fashion, but in 2015, 70 years after the end of the Second World War Rotterdam is alive and kicking, a wonder of new architecture and innovation and even a place to be. It is a tourist attraction today, the new city attracts Dutch people from other regions and expats, migrants and tourists from all over Europe and all over the world. My father coaped with a lot due to his fondness of nature, culture, music (classical music gives him comfort), his own painting and drawing and by reading a lot and being busy with history and economics. My father has reconciled himself with the New Rotterdam he detested for decades as one of the ugliest places and thus cities in the world. Today he loves the new Rotterdam and even is proud of Rotterdam again. He returned to his Rotterdam roots again and has embraced the city again. Every now and then my mom and dad travel from the South (Vlissingen) up North to Rotterdam above them in Western Holland, in South-Holland. They love it.   After the rebellious years as a foolish teenage hard rocker and disco maniac (going out, drinking and smoking and etc on a to early age) and obnoxious adolescence I learned to coap with my father, to respect him and coexist in a family manner. I was not a great rebel, but must have been difficult, by coming from a different age and planet. A young fellow of the pop and rock 'n roll generation. A culture which was alien to my parents. My heavy metal hard rock music and taste was psychiatric and insane in their eyes. I look a lot like him, more than I like to admid. Older family members and old friends of his see the younger him in me. A son doesn't want to look like his father, but realises when he becomes older that his genes, dna, character and personality must come from somewhere. Luckily I am a mix of my mother and father. My more philosophical, sensitive, spiritual, contemplative and emotional side comes from my mothers (Polish) side. The rational-analytical, creative, exploratory, pragmatic and liberal arts side comes from my fathers (Dutch) side. Cheers, Pieter |
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Post by karl on Dec 7, 2015 14:50:18 GMT -7
Nictoshek and Pieter Here is what our panzers {Tanks} looked like I served in, they were M-47 hand me downs that had been modified from original with some changes, one being as not exampled by the video, was the change out of the original petrol motor {engine}to that of a 12 cylinder diesel. The following is a good description of the machine with interior view of what it was to operate it. The example shown is very dirty and would not have passed any inspection. This model was very advanced though in engineering in the steering controls, it used the differential in the stead of most being tractor skid turn using the breaking levers to turn by. Then most uncludant the Soviet models used skid turning and were very rough and not very accurate. www.bing.com/videos/search?q=inside+a+m47+tank&view=detail&mid=DCF15607B809CE9FA18FDCF15607B809CE9FA18F&FORM=VIRE1Karl |
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Post by pieter on Dec 7, 2015 15:51:51 GMT -7
In the heated passions of war, many things are lost of course, such as innocence. But the camaraderie among front line warriors whatever side they may be on, endures forever. You are right in this statement. A good and tragic example of that was the excellent German mini series Unsere Mutter, Unsere Väter. Only the portrayal of the Polish resistance was wrong, exaggerated and twisted. Maybe only some tiny extreme elements, a fringe of the Polish resistance movement acted like that. But by showing them like that the Germans who made this video portray all Poles as vicious and indifferent anti-semites. That is the mistake of making this segment of the series. It does not show the majority of the Polish resistance; the Armja Krajowa, the National Armed Forces ( NSZ), the Peasants' Battalions ( Bataliony Chłopskie, BCh), the Obóz Polski Walczącej (the Camp of Fighting Poland), Konfederacja Narodu (Confederation of the Nation), The Narodowa Organizacja Wojskowa (National Military Organisation), the Gwardia Ludowa WRN (People's Guard of WRN) of Polish Socialist Party ( PPS) (joined ZWZ around 1940, subsequently merged into AK) and the pro-Soviet and communist People's Army (Polish Armia Ludowa or AL), backed by the Soviet Union and established by the Polish Workers' Party (Polish Polska Partia Robotnicza or PPR). |
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Post by pieter on Dec 7, 2015 16:13:34 GMT -7
Nictoshek and Pieter Here is what our panzers {Tanks} looked like I served in, they were M-47 hand me downs that had been modified from original with some changes, one being as not exampled by the video, was the change out of the original petrol motor {engine}to that of a 12 cylinder diesel. The following is a good description of the machine with interior view of what it was to operate it. The example shown is very dirty and would not have passed any inspection. This model was very advanced though in engineering in the steering controls, it used the differential in the stead of most being tractor skid turn using the breaking levers to turn by. Then most uncludant the Soviet models used skid turning and were very rough and not very accurate. www.bing.com/videos/search?q=inside+a+m47+tank&view=detail&mid=DCF15607B809CE9FA18FDCF15607B809CE9FA18F&FORM=VIRE1Karl Dear Karl, Your M-47 tanks is clearly based on the M4 Sherman, officially Medium Tank, M4, the most numerous battle tank used by the United States and some other Western Allies in World War II. The M47 was the U.S. Army's and Marine Corps' primary tank, intended to replace the M46 Patton and M4 Sherman medium tanks. The M47 was widely used by U.S. Cold War allies, both SEATO and NATO countries, and was the only Patton series tank that never saw combat while in US service. Cheers, Pieter |
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Post by Jaga on Dec 7, 2015 22:03:59 GMT -7
Pieter, Rotterdam is definitively a beautiful town, I wish I had a chance to see it. Referring to war movies, dead German military.... for some strange reasons there is a push in the US to go to another war. Pres. Obama was called "a pussy" for NOT calling for war. Who dies at wars? Innocent young men mainly. Who pays for it? We all Lets send all these retired military guys on the first line of fire, since they want the war so much, like this guy who was suspended. THESE GUYS JUST WANT A WAR! www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/12/07/a-fox-commentator-just-called-obama/?hpid=hp_hp-more-top-stories_foxnews-635pm%3Ahomepage%2FstorySo imagine my disappointment Monday when the same guy who is responsible for that éclair metaphor hit, ahem, below the belt by calling Obama a “total pussy” during an appearance on the Fox Business Network. |
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Post by karl on Dec 8, 2015 7:04:56 GMT -7
My self do agree with Jaga, for Rotterdam of the present is very beautiful indeed so. The tall modern buildings over the ashes of the old, as if it is a phoenix to rise up more beautiful then before. It is a shame for the war time destruction that took place with the lives lost, those that died will never grow old{er}.
The de Markthal is such a wonderful structure, so people friendly and colourful as to be a wonder, Rotterdam has done well.
Also have I watched the film: Unser mütter, un unser väter. It was as if to be taken back all those years to their time and war time life. As if to peek into their individual lives such as a voyare would do. It was sad to observe the changes with each of their lives as their individual situations would bring upon them, from young exuberant lives to older then their years, as if their youth was stolen too quick too soon.
My self, was not to expect perfection as a documentary, but viewed as entertainment, so was not disappointed with the various scenes as they were.
Karl
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Post by pieter on Dec 8, 2015 16:28:50 GMT -7
Dear Karl,
I also watched the three parts of Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter, the story of the five friends from Berlin who were separated by the war and each went their own tragic path. It is a very interesting movie series from the perspective of the war history from within the German mirror. It shows war time Berlin, the Eastern Front and Poland inbetween them. It shows how war changes people. A pacifist Wehrmacht soldier becomes a war criminal, and a Wehrmacht officer who starts as a strict Prussian officer later becomes a deserter. One of the girls becomes a German singer (Radio star) and the other a nurse at the eastern-front, who undergoes the terrible fate of many German and other women in the east, rape by Red army soldiers.
Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter ("Our mothers, our fathers") is a typical Second World War Historical movie which shows the German side of the war. The story of two brothers who join the Wehrmacht, one as Wehrmacht officer, the other as Wehrmacht soldier. One of the friends is a German jew who loses his parents and his girlfriend, one of the German girls of the five friends. She later out of opportunistic reasons dates a Nazi Gestapo officer and later regrets her choice and becomes a victim of the same Gestapo officer, when she is betrayed for defeatist remarks made in a pub. The naive nurse loses her innocence. Later at the end of the war the three friends that remained alive, the Wehrmacht officer who deserted from the Wehrmacht, the nurse and the Jewish friend meet again in what remained of the pub where the five friends met at that christmas night in the early war years. The years have changed them and they look different at the place and eachother. Their world has changed completely.
Cheers,
Pieter
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Post by pieter on Dec 8, 2015 16:33:06 GMT -7
I have to admid that I haven't seen the de Markthal in Rotterdam yet. I have to go their to see it soon and to see the other new architecture and buildings in Rotterdam. The Markthal is a wonderful structure for sure. People friendly and colourful, a wonder of architecture, design and color patterns and art. It is a place that attracts people from all over the Netherlands and abroad.
I am more oriented on Amsterdam from my Arnhem perspective. I am very seldom in Rotterdam. I should visit Rotterdam and The Hague more often.
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Post by Jaga on Dec 8, 2015 22:52:34 GMT -7
Karl, your are right, I almost forgot that Rotterdam was destroyed during WW II. Rotterdam is one of these places in Europe, I did not see yet, but I really would like to.
Pieter, referring to Rotterdam, I understand, there are plenty of places in Poland I did not see yet or saw it briefly. I am studying more of American history from Ela's books. It is amazing how much Dutch influenced the world. We did not learn about it in Poland.
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