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Post by pieter on Mar 22, 2019 9:56:46 GMT -7
Jaga,
I think you are right in your assumption. Forum for Democracy and Geert Wilders PVV (Freedom Party) both used anti-immigration and xenophobic statements to point at the fact that the attacker in Utrecht is of Turkish-migrant descent. The Netherlands is yet a little bit more polarized than it was. Leftwing and rightwing people live in different worlds and the dislike of each other is enormous.
Did you saw the video in which Thierry Baudet showed his contempt, aversion (dislike) towards and progressive, liberal, leftwing audience. Insulting the organisers, the institution (university), a fellow Leftwing politician and the host, an old NPO (Public telivision host, telling him -"I will not allow abuse from a sidetracked TV presenter from the Dutch Public Broadcast Corporation".
And in that left right spectrum you could see the leftwing, social democratic and populist Denk (Think) movement as the representative of the migrant people who don't feel at home in the traditional political establishment. Denk (Think) is often labeled a 'migrant' version PVV (Freedom Party). Some accuse Denk (Think) to be a Turkish Nationalist and Islamist (Fundamentalist Muslim) party.
Denk party leader speaks Turkish to Turkish tv
Cheers, Pieter
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Post by pieter on Mar 22, 2019 10:01:31 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Mar 22, 2019 10:06:49 GMT -7
Tunahan Kuzu of Denk (Think) vs Thierry Baudet (Forum for Democracy)
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Post by Jaga on Mar 22, 2019 22:03:35 GMT -7
Pieter, it is hard for me to watch the videos which are in Dutch. Thanks for posting the ones with the translations. I am kind of tired of watching any type of politics now, since people are so sadly divided.
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Post by pieter on Mar 23, 2019 6:39:38 GMT -7
Dear Jaga,
You are right of course that you can't understand Dutch. The translation (subtitles do not always work, so it seems). You are right that people are sadly divived. In my corner of the world and the Netherlands, the local level, I see division (discord) between left leaning people and right leaning people, but also division within the left and division within the right. The rightwing Nationalist Populist current is strong both in Western-Europe and in Central-Europe/Eastern-Europe. Peoples are increasingly national and regional oriented. On the left side you also see new Leftwing Populist and Leftwing Nationalist developments, in the sense of regionalism, segregation movements (the Catalan independence movement is clearly 'leftwing nationalist', the same is the case with the Basque independence movement in Spain and that of the Irish Republican nationalists in Northern-Ireland).Our own people first!Brexit is hugely popular amongst Dutch, Flemish-Belgian, Danish, German, Austrian, French, Italian, Hungarian and some Polish nationalists. In the Netherlands Geert Wilders and Thierry Baudet and their parties PVV (Freedom Party) and Forum for Democracy are Pro-Nexit. But also other anti-European or Eurosceptic conservatives, populists and dissidents in other political parties. They are allergic towards the idea of a Powerful Brussels, European Federalism, the loss of sovereignty, an abstract European bureaucracy and foreign influence on national soil. They stand for national democracy, 'Our own people and their interest first', and thus for nationalism, regionalism and some sort of nativism.Our own people first is a popular slogan amongst Flemish and Dutch far right Neo-Nazi's, Identitarians, Peoples Nationalists and Rightwing National PopulistsTo put it in extreme perspective, Danish and Dutch national Populists say: "What do we have to do with the Greeks, Italians, the Central-European and Eastern-European Slavic people, Baltic people, Romanians, the Hungarians, Bulgarians, and Spanish people?" People think from the perspective of their family, their city/town/village/hamlet (n my case the city of Arnhem [you have some city patriotism in the Netherlands, people who identify with their city, saying for instance "I am an Arnhemmer, born and raised in Arnhem, Arnhem is the center of my existence"], their region (West-Netherlands, North-Netherlands, East-Netherlands, Middle [Central] Netherlands or Southern-Nehterlands), their province (in my case the Province Gelderland in the Netherlands), their Eurregion (for instance the The Rhine-Waal Euroregion) and their country/state/nation (the Kingdom of the Netherlands, het Koninkrijk der Nederlanden (Engels: ). What these Dutch National Populists forget is the fact that the Netherlands has always been an international, cosmopolitan country which depends on open borders, foreign trade (import & export via harbours/ports, rivers, Transeuropean highways, canals, our airports, foreign expats, foreign tourists, foreign quality labour migrants, foreign students [Erasmus exchange project], foreign investments in the Dutch economy and foreign buyers who come to the Netherlands to buy Dutch products. A Nexit would be disastrous for Dutch farmers, companies, firms, banks, business people, horeca and the tourist sector.Close the borders, Our own people, First, Rutte (the Dutch prime minister) beat it!To put it simply people today think more and more local, regional and national than for instance during the late sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties in the 20th century. It has to do with family, clan, tribe, group, people (Volk), a group of peoples (Germanic orientation, Slavic orientation, Latin Romanesque orientation). That nativist, identitarian, ethnocentric, soil based thinking is becoming stronger. We were here first, our people first (Eigen volk eerst in Dutch), rejection of aliens and alien influences. The victory speech of the Dutch leader of Forum for Democracy, Thierry Baudet, was exactly about that feeling. It was directed to his party members, his voters and native Dutch West Germanic Dutch people.No refugee center in Rotterdam, Our own people first!Poster of a Flemish-Belgian nationalist political partyCheers, Pieter
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Post by pieter on Mar 23, 2019 6:56:56 GMT -7
A book by the Flemish Nationalist author and politician Filip Dewinter - Eigen volk eerst (Own people first), Een antwoord op het vreemdelingenprobleem (an answer on the alien problem).Protect our own people, kick out criminal immigrantsen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filip_DewinterThree member of parliament belonging to the Belgian party Vlaams Belang visited Syrian President Bashar al-Assad in Damascus in March 2015
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Post by karl on Mar 23, 2019 12:45:17 GMT -7
Pieter
Whilst with the video: Belgian right winger calls out "Qur'an", was to bring to mind: Those folks that are politically correct, how are they to handle this?
I believe you know my mindset of politically correct, for that is a manner of evading reality. For to try evading reality too long in time, it has the manner of biting the back side in a dreadful manner.
For in reality, there is little issue with the various working Islamic families/people, it is those that enjoy to turn the readings in to their own way of thinking that is not what God teaches. It is a problem that is to the white race of Christian Europeans to figure out and so far, most all efforts are failures.
So, does this make us in to racist?
Karl
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Post by pieter on Mar 23, 2019 15:26:17 GMT -7
Karl,
Thank you for your reaction. I like your clearness. Many native Europeans (white Christian Europeans, Agnostic Europeans, Secular Humanist Europeans and atheists) struggle with real issues, challenges and problems they face. Of course a lot of migrants struggle with the same real issues, challenges and problems they face too. Economical hardship (a struggle to make ends meet), rising energy, petrol and gas prizes, unemployment, lack of law and order in certain parts of cities and towns, the lack of integration and assimilation of certain groups of immigrants and thus the division (discord) between some native Europeans on one side and migrants on the other side, the rich and the poor, left vs right and ethnic groups against each other (for instance Turks and Kurds against each other in Germany and Belgium, ethnic tensions between the Caribbean and British Asian communities in october 2005 in Birmingham in the UK, ethnic tensions between Moroccans and Moluccan people in the Netherlands - more.bham.ac.uk/euro-islam/2010/01/07/tensions-erupt-between-moroccans-and-moluccans-in-culemborg-netherlands/ -).
As ethnic communities grow stronger and often neighbourhoods turn into ethnic ghetto's the problems increase in these ban lieu's, old working class neighbourhoods, urban agglomerations. Again I state that these tensions are often not native European vs migrant, but migrant vs migrant. In Germany I read about tensions between Arab and Turkish gangs in certain cities like Cologne (Köln), Duisburg and Berlin. In the Netherlands there were also ethnic tensions between (Black) Dutch Antillians and Dutch Moroccans. And some Polish groups of guest workers occasionally clashed with another group of Polish guestworkers. Often alcohol, old rivalries from within Poland ( I have no clue what the clue of their argument/quarrel is?). Also inside and outside refugee centers different ethnic groups can clash. I heard of tensions between African Eritreans and Middle Eastern-Iraqi's for instance. Or tensions between Kurds and Afghans, and Kurds and Arabs for instance ( www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/3d3fad06-33bd-4f72-995f-9b67efa85457 ).
History, the present and the future flow into each other in these problems and challenges. Ottoman, British/French, Arab, Persian (Iranian), Russian and American colonialism, imperialism, ambitions in the Middle east changed borders in the 19th and 20th cenutry, which created problems in these regions. Despotic, authocratic, corrupt, totalitarian, oppressive and dividing (divide and rule) Middle-eastern and African leaders put fuel to the fire, supporting rebels and terrorists in the nations of their regional rivals and fighting their own rebels and terrorists. Ethnic tensions and division is a large threat to Europe today, next to growing income and class differences (the growing gap between rich and poor) and the fact that native Europeans and migrants are living increasingly in different worlds. Worlds with different languages, social codes, ethics, life styles, different media and press, different political movements and political parties (migrants voting for the immigrant leftwing Populist Turkish-Moroccan Denk (Think) Party and a lot of native Dutch voting for the rightwing Nationalist Populist Freedom Party (Geert Wilders PVV), Thierry Baudets Forum for Democracy, or the center rightwing Conservative liberal VVD, the social conservative Christian Democratic CDA or the Leftwing Populist and Leftwing Nationalist Socialist Party (SP) (which largely represents the white Native European -West Germanic- Dutch working class and lower middle class, with a few integrated and assimilated working class and lower middle class migrants -who chose the Dutch side, and who are thus seen as Bounties, white native Dutch from the inside and migrant from the outside-).
The division (discord), tension, segregation, polarization and alienation of these groups of people are growing. Both the native Dutch and the migrants don't understand the world of the other and are not that interested in the opinion, way of living and the existence of the other. That is a serious, very serious problem.
Cheers, Pieter
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Post by Jaga on Mar 24, 2019 12:49:17 GMT -7
This picture of Wilders is really scary and it reminds me the worst of nationalism
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Post by pieter on Mar 25, 2019 2:44:39 GMT -7
Pieter, the more diversity the better. I rather see people on the right and left splitting into more subtle division than being on two completely different fronts. This picture of Wilders is really scary and it reminds me the worst of nationalism Dear Jaga,
You got a point there. The Dutch democracy and thus the Dutch democratic system is rather complicated because we have so many political parties and always coalition governements. Making compromises, politcal matchmaking, somge sort of cooperative corporatism and pragmatism is part of the Dutch political climate. Realistic solutions are more important than ideology or a political party for many people. Others stick to their party and their ideology.
The benefit of people on the right and left splitting into more subtle division in staid of being on two completely different fronts is the fact that you do not get huge power concentrations and to powerful political parties, political movements or politiical power blocs.
Cheers, Pieter
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Post by pieter on Mar 25, 2019 5:52:09 GMT -7
Jaga,
The political situation has changed decade after decade in the Netherlands. Today some politicians make statements where there would be an indictment against them in the seventies, eighties or even nintiees. They would have been prosecuted, fined, and lawsuit would have been filed against them in court. What Geert Wilders, some labour politicians, Mark Rutte, and Thierry Baudet say about foreigners, migrants, the superiority of the white European civilization, the Judea-Christians civilization, the backward Islamic culture and etc. would have been seen as fascist, racist, xenophobe, discriminatory, reactionary, Nationalistic and Nazi in the seventies, eighties and nineties.
Today we live in a different world, a different, North-Western-Europe, a different European Union, a different West in which extreme opinions, statements and sometimes policies have become normal. Central-Europea is now part of the West, and thus Poland, Hungary and Austria are part of the West. A new development is that more and more poeople in Continental Western-Europe and in Great-Britian (the United Kingdom) think like Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, Donald Trump, Benjamin Netanyahu, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, the Austrian Chancellor Sebastian Kurz, the Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki and the Hungarian prime minister Viktor Orbán.
Thierry Baudet and his Forum for Democracy are more extreme in the sense far right than Geert Wilders Freedom Party (PVV). His victory speech last week reminded my father of speeches of Heinrich Himmler and Joseph Goebbels in the thrirties and forties in Nazi Germany. He openly speeched about the white superior race, the superior European civilization and etc. Baudet is really extreme Jaga.
In his victory speech Baudet spoke about making Europe and the Netherlands whiter, using the term 'Boreaal' for that. He stands for a Netherlands where coloured people are less welcome than white people.
Cheers, Pieter
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Post by pieter on Mar 25, 2019 7:54:10 GMT -7
Full speech of Thierry Baudet with English subtitles
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Post by karl on Mar 25, 2019 13:11:20 GMT -7
Pieter
It would appear as of the various videos presented of currant elections in your area of the known world for as withen Germany, changes are in the wind. For as with these exposures of people to new ideas and concepts requires a proper maintenance of proper focus of the most important issues, and number one is: Freedom. Freedom from those with attempts to destroy our way of life. Freedom from the ignorance of poor leadership and even though some would say this is decided upon at the voters booth. But, no so, for even the smartist of people may be fooled by the person running for that particular office by misrepresenting them selves in a receptive manner.
Some time in past, our Eric once accused me of being a racist, perhaps he was correct in his assessment if my sincer wishes are for the protection of my way of life against those that wish to modify to their own manner, then so be it. There would be a very nasty war in response.
For not to attempt to extend my self as some thing special, is and would be very far from the truth, for as being Frisian, is to be a monority in classification. This label my self am not proud of, for it places those of our selves in a particular classification of both a protected language and race. But, in the manner of some other races, we lived as of our selves, but where ever, learnt and used the regional language, laws and yet, kept our own language alive and in use amongst our selves.
At present, we as people {Europeans} are facing a changing world in most all respects. Rather be it political, economically,demographically is not a question, but a reality. It is not enough to adjust to changes, but a requirment to insure these changes are to our benifit, and that is the bottom line.
Karl
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Post by pieter on Mar 26, 2019 5:12:02 GMT -7
On owls, women and the boreal world: 10 things Thierry Baudet has saidMarch 26, 2019 Thierry Baudet. Photo: Martijn Beekman via HHAs the new kid on the political block in the Netherlands, Thierry Baudet has brought his own, distinctive rhetorical style with him. Here are some of the things he has said in public or to the media – with an explanation of what they mean where necessary. On the environment ‘There is no increase in extreme weather. The climate is warming up at a much slower rate than predicted. More CO2 has a fantastic effect on plant growth. Smog in India has nothing to do with CO2.’ (AD, January 11, 2018) On women in the workplace ‘I do know that women in general do not excel as much in some professions and are less ambitious. They are often more interested in family and suchlike.’ (Quote, April 2017) On what women really want 'The reality is that women don’t just wanted to be treated ‘respectfully’ by their sex partner; they don’t want you to respect their ‘no’, their resistance. The reality is that women want to be overruled, dominated, yes, overpowered.’ (Column, November 19, 2014) On western man’s role in the world ‘We survived a number of ice ages, we have knocked down mammoths, we are bearers, we are heirs to the greatest civilisation that ever existed.’ (Election victory speech, March 21, 2019) On civilisation ‘Like all the other countries in our boreal world we are being destroyed by the very people who are supposed to protect us. We are being undermined by our universities, our journalists. By people who get art subsidies and who design our buildings.’ (Election victory speech, March 21, 2019) The word ‘boreal’ (northern) is also beloved of far-right politicians including Jean-Marie Le Pen as a veiled term for Aryan or white supremacy. On the provincial election results ‘Minerva’s owl spreads its wings at dusk’. (Post electoral speech, March 21) Minerva is the goddess of wisdom and the owl imagery was used by German philosopher Hegel in 1821 to say that man only recognises the ills of the world when darkness falls and it is too late to remedy them. Except of course if Baudet takes the helm. On immigration ‘Malevolent, aggressive elements are being introduced into our society in unprecedented numbers.’ (FD, February 12, 2017) On the Dutch ‘The homeopathic dilution of the Dutch population with all the peoples of the world means there will be no Dutch people left.’ (PvD party conference, in run up to elections in March, 2017) On architecture ‘Koolhaas (architect Remco Koolhaas, DN) is just a representative of a dominant era in which our aesthetic sense has been derailed. I don’t think anyone who hasn’t been ideologically brainwashed would deny that. What we are achieving in modern art and urban design is a product of the same mindset as our migration and multiculturalism policy. The great western civilisation project has received a blow; the destruction of the last hundred years.’ (NRC, November 24, 2018) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rem_KoolhaasBaudet on Baudet ‘I knew from the start that I would be the only person capable of changing politics. I don’t see any other talented people in the Netherlands.’ (NRC, November 24, 2018).Source: DutchNews.nl:
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Post by karl on Mar 26, 2019 9:45:48 GMT -7
Pieter
Whilst viewing over the remarks of his mindset, was to bring about a smile on my face. For within his mindset, is parallel to my own to the letter. I must say I do like his thinking as it is very realistic down to the bone. It is good to have new people such as him self with new ideas and fresh energy.
Karl
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