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Post by holaola on Jan 10, 2008 15:37:56 GMT -7
I really think it’s too easy to be dismissive and critical of people’s actions 60 years after the events took place.
By the time these children took part in the Warsaw Uprising countless convoys of Polish children had been crammed into cattle trucks and taken to concentration camps or re-training camps where they were beaten, and I mean pulp beaten, into becoming Germans and forgetting their Polish language and their Polish identity. They were subsequently sent to Germany and most were lost forever to their families.
Of the children taken to the concentration camps many were used as blood suppliers for the German Front (to be killed as soon as they got too anaemic) – that is those who managed to arrive in the camps still alive. Many convoys of children, packed solid as they were into the cattle trains, froze to death en route.
Questioning the ethics and aesthetics of a statue to commemorate the Warsaw children’s participation in the Uprising today seems a little odd and unaware of the circumstances. Of course it would have been better had they stayed at home with their mothers – that is if they still had mothers to stay with! However many hadn’t and these children were fighting to survive.
If there is a moral issue here it isn’t that of the children nor of their elders. The only ethics that must be questioned time and time again are those of the Germans who had no scruples in kidnapping, maiming, killing, and committing so many atrocities against Polish children that I’d have to stay up all night to list them in all their bestial entirety.
It is not the Poles who were immoral for having allowed the children to fight – it is and it always will be the Germans who are immoral for having prevented them from living. And that statue must remain so that memory of this disgusting episode in Germany’s history doesn’t disappear too soon – a very little thorn indeed (in comparison to the German crime) to keep the memory fresh.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Jan 11, 2008 2:35:05 GMT -7
I really think it’s too easy to be dismissive and critical of people’s actions 60 years after the events took place. By the time these children took part in the Warsaw Uprising countless convoys of Polish children had been crammed into cattle trucks and taken to concentration camps or re-training camps where they were beaten, and I mean pulp beaten, into becoming Germans and forgetting their Polish language and their Polish identity. They were subsequently sent to Germany and most were lost forever to their families. That is a good point. Sort of self-defence of Polish children who were doomed to destruction anyway... Hmmm... strange but I have never read or heard about Polish children sucked from their blood in camps. Neither about frozen convoys..... Are you sure it refers to Polish children? Or are you talking about children of Polish Jews? Then it is possible..... Yes, it is a good continuation of the good point you made in the first paragraph. OK, let`s sum it up and arrive at conclusions: Could children take part in the fight? The answer has been partly suggested by you: yes, when the fate of the whole nation is at stake. Can we excuse adult Poles who accepted children soldiers? Yes, although with hesitation. What is the message of the baby soldier monument which at first looks shocking and terrifying? It is there to remind about times when the existence of the whole nation was threatened so that even children had to fight. In this way, through an educational discussion with all of you, I have finally reached my conclusion and now I know what to think about it.Thank you all very much.
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Post by holaola on Jan 11, 2008 6:38:28 GMT -7
That is a good point. Sort of self-defence of Polish children who were doomed to destruction anyway... Hmmm... strange but I have never read or heard about Polish children sucked from their blood in camps. Neither about frozen convoys..... Are you sure it refers to Polish children? Or are you talking about children of Polish Jews? Then it is possible..... No – these children were non-Jewish Poles. The Partisans managed to free some children from the Convoys and it was during these attempts to liberate them that they found a train-full of frozen children. There are documents reporting Hitler’s various tirades against the Poles where time and time again he orders his Generals to get rid of the Poles (I speak again of non-Jewish Poles) – men, women and children – by any means available. He says that his desire is for Poland to disappear from the map so entirely and so thoroughly that there will never be anyone capable of bringing the Polish nation back to life again. Now a question for you, Pawian! Has your embarrassment (I may be wrong - but I feel the issue of child soldiers hangs heavily with you) anything to do with the uncomfortable feeling one gets when looking at African and Palestinian child warriors?
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Mary
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Post by Mary on Jan 11, 2008 7:12:13 GMT -7
That is a good point. Sort of self-defence of Polish children who were doomed to destruction anyway... Hmmm... strange but I have never read or heard about Polish children sucked from their blood in camps. Neither about frozen convoys..... Are you sure it refers to Polish children? Or are you talking about children of Polish Jews? Then it is possible..... No – these children were non-Jewish Poles. The Partisans managed to free some children from the Convoys and it was during these attempts to liberate them that they found a train-full of frozen children. There are documents reporting Hitler’s various tirades against the Poles where time and time again he orders his Generals to get rid of the Poles (I speak again of non-Jewish Poles) – men, women and children – by any means available. He says that his desire is for Poland to disappear from the map so entirely and so thoroughly that there will never be anyone capable of bringing the Polish nation back to life again. Now a question for you, Pawian! Has your embarrassment (I may be wrong - but I feel the issue of child soldiers hangs heavily with you) anything to do with the uncomfortable feeling one gets when looking at African and Palestinian child warriors? Children locked in cattle cars, left to freeze on the tracks.......VERY TRUE. My Great Uncle was one of the victims, he was almost 12 yrs old, not Jewish, he was Polish/Catholic. Mary
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Post by valpomike on Jan 11, 2008 9:26:05 GMT -7
My family, who live in Poland have many stories they can tell, of this bad war. It is hard to let go, when we still remember. Could be my grandchildren will not care, but I do.
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Mary
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Post by Mary on Jan 11, 2008 9:55:41 GMT -7
My family, who live in Poland have many stories they can tell, of this bad war. It is hard to let go, when we still remember. Could be my grandchildren will not care, but I do. I think the world should never forget the souls lost in this terrible war. If we do, we will allow it to happen again... I found great article on the Polish losses during WWII. www.ruf.rice.edu/~sarmatia/498/losses.htmlJust one sentence from the article: 200,000 Polish children were deported to Germany for purposes of Germanization. 150,000, or 75 percent, never returned to their families in Poland (Bartoszewski, op. cit.). There is a detailed breakdown on the various groups and whether the losses were of Germany or Russia. And the last paragraph of the article: The Soviet occupation of Poland lasted nearly ten times as long as the Nazi occupation. Even more ideologically corrosive than the Nazis, the Soviets devastated the lives of three generations of Poles whose living conditions were made wretched, and whose religion and culture were attacked with the full power of the office of state security. As General Wladyslaw Anders remarked to General George Patton: “With the Nazis, we [Poles] lose our lives; with the Soviets, we lose our souls.... If I found my army between the Nazis and the Soviets, I would attack in both directions.” Mary
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Post by valpomike on Jan 11, 2008 14:45:19 GMT -7
Mary,
Thank you.
Michael Dabrowski
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Post by holaola on Jan 11, 2008 16:33:56 GMT -7
If one considers all the children lost in concentration camps, plus those who were Germanized and never made it back home, plus those who were born to Polish women prisoners in the Reich and never survived then Poland lost some 2,500,000 of her young.
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Post by Pawian on Jan 11, 2008 16:43:02 GMT -7
If one considers all the children lost in concentration camps, plus those who were Germanized and never made it back home, plus those who were born to Polish women prisoners in the Reich and never survived then Poland lost some 2,500,000 of her young. What is the source of this number? It is not only doubtful, but also incredible since the WW2 death toll for Poland was 6 million people, including 3 million Jews.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Jan 11, 2008 16:49:19 GMT -7
No – these children were non-Jewish Poles. The Partisans managed to free some children from the Convoys and it was during these attempts to liberate them that they found a train-full of frozen children. I have searched the Net for the info on the frozen convoy. I am sorry to say but I was right when I doubted it. Nothing like that was procured by Germans in occupied Poland. Yes, there were such death trains and people froze to death, especially the old, weak and children, but they were deported to Siberia by Soviets, not Germans. I have read many books on war cirmes in Poland and never encountered a German convoy which froze to death.
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Mary
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Post by Mary on Jan 11, 2008 17:28:11 GMT -7
A MUST READ! A sampling of the 100s of entries compiled by the "Slownik Uczestniczek Walki o Niepodleglosc Polski 1939-1945," published by the Panstwowy Instytut Wydawniczy in Warsaw, 1988. POLISH WOMEN VICTIMS / FEMALE BRAVERY felsztyn.tripod.com/germaninvasion/id5.htmlMary
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Post by Mary on Jan 11, 2008 18:21:54 GMT -7
No – these children were non-Jewish Poles. The Partisans managed to free some children from the Convoys and it was during these attempts to liberate them that they found a train-full of frozen children. I have searched the Net for the info on the frozen convoy. I am sorry to say but I was right when I doubted it. Nothing like that was procured by Germans in occupied Poland. Yes, there were such death trains and people froze to death, especially the old, weak and children, but they were deported to Siberia by Soviets, not Germans. I have read many books on war cirmes in Poland and never encountered a German convoy which froze to death. Please see this article on the subject: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_of_Polish_children_by_GermanyA section of the article: Conditions of transfer See also: Expulsion of Poles by Germany See also: Untermensch Many children were kidnapped during expulsions of Poles made by Germans. For example in Zamość County Germans expelled 30,000 children, out of which 4445 were chosen for Germanisation and sent to German Reich. Over 10,000 children died in camps of Zwierzyniec, Zamość, Auschwitz, Majdanek or during transport in cattle wagons used normally to move livestock. Thousands of them were sent by railway to Garwolin, Mrozów, Sobolew, Łosic, Chełm and other cities. As one witness reported: I saw children being taken from their mothers, some were even torn from the breast. It was a terrible sight: the agony of the mothers and fathers, the beating by the Germans, and the crying of the children. [15] The conditions of transfer were very harsh, as the children didn’t receive food or water for many days. Many children died as a result of of suffocation in the summer and cold in the winter[15]. Polish railway workers, often risking their lives tried to feed the imprisoned children or to give them warm clothes. Sometimes the German guards could be bribed by jewelry or gold to allow the supplies to go through, in other cases they sold some of the children to Poles. After the war a memorial plate was made in Lublin to railway workers who tried to save Polish children from German captivity[16] Mary ***Note; I cannot prove it, but the story that I was always told about my grandmother's brother was that it was near the end of the war, this train was left, locked and all inside froze to death, some may have frozen along the way.
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Post by holaola on Jan 12, 2008 12:10:17 GMT -7
Pawian, The fact that information is not on the net does not mean that it isn't true! It means that it isn't on the net so far.
Here is one source you can take a look at : "W Nocy i Mgle" by Marta Michalska. There is info. in the back of the book.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Jan 12, 2008 13:31:22 GMT -7
Please see this article on the subject: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_of_Polish_children_by_GermanyA section of the article: Conditions of transfer See also: Expulsion of Poles by Germany See also: Untermensch Many children were kidnapped during expulsions of Poles made by Germans. For example in Zamość County Germans expelled 30,000 children, out of which 4445 were chosen for Germanisation and sent to German Reich. Over 10,000 children died in camps of Zwierzyniec, Zamość, Auschwitz, Majdanek or during transport in cattle wagons used normally to move livestock. Thousands of them were sent by railway to Garwolin, Mrozów, Sobolew, Łosic, Chełm and other cities. As one witness reported: I saw children being taken from their mothers, some were even torn from the breast. It was a terrible sight: the agony of the mothers and fathers, the beating by the Germans, and the crying of the children. [15] The conditions of transfer were very harsh, as the children didn’t receive food or water for many days. Many children died as a result of of suffocation in the summer and cold in the winter[15]. Polish railway workers, often risking their lives tried to feed the imprisoned children or to give them warm clothes. Sometimes the German guards could be bribed by jewelry or gold to allow the supplies to go through, in other cases they sold some of the children to Poles. After the war a memorial plate was made in Lublin to railway workers who tried to save Polish children from German captivity[16] Mary ***Note; I cannot prove it, but the story that I was always told about my grandmother's brother was that it was near the end of the war, this train was left, locked and all inside froze to death, some may have frozen along the way. Yes, you were right. I have found out more about it. I had known about this Nazi pacification of the Zamosć region but I had never gone into details. Hence my recent doubts. The children from Zamość region were especially mistreated. Actually they were destined to perish. It was a planned extermination and such horrible incidents like frozen convoys could happen. Polish railway workers did try to help those children. The news about transports of children spread though all Poland and caused immense shock. No wonder that Warsaw children decided to fight together with adults. They felt their existence was threatened too. Here are memorial plaques and monuments honouring the children upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/48/Dzieci_zamojszczyzny3pl.jpg/663px-Dzieci_zamojszczyzny3pl.jpgupload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/52/Dzieci_zamojszczyzny1pl.jpg/450px-Dzieci_zamojszczyzny1pl.jpgupload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c5/Dzieci_zamojszczyzny2pl.jpg/800px-Dzieci_zamojszczyzny2pl.jpg
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Post by Pawian on Jan 12, 2008 13:34:42 GMT -7
Pawian, The fact that information is not on the net does not mean that it isn't true! It means that it isn't on the net so far. . Yes, I admit my knowledge on those convoys of children was not sufficient. So, you were right. However, I still claim that 2.5 million perished children as given by you is too high a number.
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