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Post by pieter on Nov 21, 2019 8:50:13 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Nov 21, 2019 8:53:14 GMT -7
The languages shown I can understand and follow are English, German, Dutch, Afrikaans, and Yiddish I can understand a little bit. I understand the Old German part of Yiddish, but not the Hebrew and Slavic elements in it. The West Germanic language Luxembourgish is such a strange mix of German, French, Old Dutch/Flemish elements as the regional version of the Moselle Franconian language that I can't understand it. In Luxemburg I spoke German or with my limited French when I was there.
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Post by pieter on Nov 21, 2019 8:54:03 GMT -7
Which languages can you follow Karl, Jaga, Kaima, John, Jeanne, Eric, Ludwik and other Forum members?
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Post by pieter on Nov 21, 2019 9:05:52 GMT -7
And now the Slavic languages. How many Slavic languages can you understand Jaga. How much do you understand of Czech (You were in Prague lately), Slovak, Ukrainian, Kashubian, Sorb, Russian, Belarussian, Bulgarian, Serb, Croation, Slovenian, Macedonian and Rhutenian (the Wendish or Rusyn language)?
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Post by pieter on Nov 21, 2019 14:27:09 GMT -7
What I find most interesting is the fact that sometimes on borders of language groups you have border languages or languages who have elements of both language groups. A good example of that is the Francophone Walloon language in Belgium which is a sort of French language with very strong Germanic elements. I wonder if you have Slave languages with strong Germanic or Latin influences. Polish for instance has a Latin grammar and orthography (spelling). That Polish grammar and orthography this has Roman (Italian) influences and has no slavic roots. So Polish is a slavic language with non-slavic Southern-European (Western Roman) roots and heritage. The Dutch language in it's part has French, latin and strong non Western influences in Indonesian (Malayan), Spanish, French and other loan words. Yiddsish words with a hebrew heritage can also be found in the Dutch language. When I say beye, beye, see you next time or good beye to Amsterdam friends I say 'De Mazzl' (the mazzel), which comes from Mazzel Tov. This has nothing to do with Judaism, because non jews use it. People like me. We use few slavic words because we have no borders with a slavic country. We are surrounded by the North sea, Flanders, as small strip of Wallonia and Germany ti the east. In border regions heavy Low Saxon and Franconian dialects and regional languages are spoken. Some very heavy Dutch dialects or regional languages are hard to understand if they are in isolated area's where people life local/regional lives. Karl will have the same with some parts of Germany where they have strong regional national variants or dialects of German. Heavy Swiss German is hard for me to understand, but Bavarian and Austrian I can understand with some effort. East Germans have a special way of speaking German. You immediately understand when an East-German speaks. They have the accent of Erich Honnecker, the East-German leader.
Saxon and the Berlin dialect have Dutch sounding elements. The Ik/Icke in staid of Ich sounds like the Dutch ik (I) and the Saxon Oogen sounds like the Dutch ogen in staid of the German Augen (Eyes).
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Post by pieter on Nov 21, 2019 14:27:57 GMT -7
How different is Silesian from Polish. Is it a dialect or a regional language version of Polish?
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Post by pieter on Nov 21, 2019 14:31:27 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Nov 21, 2019 14:33:30 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Nov 21, 2019 14:36:43 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Nov 21, 2019 14:49:25 GMT -7
My mother said that in contrast with the Netherlands which is divided in many regions where people speak with different regional languages (different versions of Dutch that are often close to Flemish and Saxon -Plattdeutsch-) in Poland there is more a dominance of the general Polish language. In the Netherlands we have a huge variety of provincial, regional and local regional languages and dialects. Similar to Germany we have the North, Center and South divide and there is a huge difference between the Holland Western Dutch speaking people in the West and the Low Saxon speaking people in the North-east and the East. In the South people speak with their Southern Soft-G (Limburg, North Brabant and Southern-Gelderland) dialects and regional languages. In the South-Western Netherlands in the coastal region they speak the heavy Zeelandish dialects of the Zeeland Peninsula (Influenced by the Flemish Dutch of the Southern Dutch and Belgian Flemish people). The Holland dialects of South-Holland and North-Holland are spoken in the West and all over the Netherlands (the Hollanders are all over the Netherlands as import people. Something like if Karl would live in Bavaria, Austria or the German speaking part of Switzerland as a North German). So we have the North South and West-East division in the Netherlands. The Central (Midden Netherlands city and province Utrecht is more connected to Holland in the West via de Randstad city region which connects Utrecht to Amsterdam, The Hague and Rotterdam in North- and South-Holland). Frisian language in the North is an autonomous and recognized language in the Netherlands. The Low Saxon regional languages and dialects of the North-East and East (the Groningen, Drenthe, Overijssel and Gerderland provinces and the Twente and Achterhook regions, 2 regions with very heavy Saxon dailects or regional languages with a strong nasal influence with a dominant N in words), the Utrecht dialects in the middle (center of the Netherlands), and the Turkish, Moroccan Berber and Arabic Moroccan of the Moroccans, the Malayan or Bahasa Indonesia of the Indo (Eurasian), Indonesian (Javanese/Sumatran) and the Moluccan (Ambonese) people is also widely spoken in the Netherlands. Ofcourse you also have the creole languages Sranang of the Black Surinamese people in the Netherlands and the Papiamento of the Black Dutch Antillian people in the Netherlands. In Poland there is more a linguistic unity and the dominance of the Polish language in staid of Silesian, Kashubian, the German of the German minority and the Ukrainian of the Ukrainians in the South-East or elswhere in Poland where you have an Ukrainian minority (maybe Western Poland where people of the Ukrainian minority were forcefully deported by the Polish communist regime in the forties and fifties). You have different accents, but not the strong influence of regional languages and dialects my mother said. Is that true or has that changed after 1967 when she left Poland. Did the fall of the centralistic communist regime of the Polish Peoples Republic made Poland less centralist and more federal or a free democratic country with stronger autonomy and influence of the regions, provinces/voivodeships and other administrative forms?
Languages, regional languages and dialects are shaped by history, how countries were ruled, administrated and how various peoples coexisted on a continent and in which territory which people had control and developed their culture, language and civilization.
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Post by karl on Nov 21, 2019 19:36:15 GMT -7
Pieter
An interesting subject of languages, to my own mind, Europe appears to be more so of the Tower of Babel with the large number of languages. It is such a shame we could all speak just one language for language is communication and if another person may not understand the language of another, what good is it?
As a person, my self am not very linguistic, what only that I know, was either what I grew up with, or was forced by circumstance to learn..This was as with our conversations, Frisian and Dansk. Whilst growing up, I did know a little German but not much until forced to do so in my teen years in Cuxhaven. Then of course whilst living and attending the mariniers institute in Hamburg, was my introduction to The Hamburger Platt {Plattdeütsch}, it was not difficult, simply a dialect from Cuxhaven. Knowledge of French is very slight, only enough not to get poisoned reading the menu.
My Spanish was forced whilst working for Uncle Otto at his Import/Export business in Buenos Aires {means good air} it is as it is, Rioplatense, more or less with an Italian intonation as spoken. It is a dialect of the area and certainly different then that in Mexico, but understandable to most all parties. What is confusing in this area, is many of the common people intermix Indian words with their brand of Spanish and that can be a bit irritating to try and understand them.
Germany is a different set of questions of dialect. I have heard and simply do not think differently, is there are about 250 different dialects in Germany. It seems to change from the North into central and South. Of my own personal thinking, there is no standard pronunciation in Germany even though Hochdeütsch is reported to be taught in all schools. Bavaria can be a hot bed of confusion with dialects, it seems the Farmer people try their very best to confuse non-resident people with their brand of different dialects. It is German all the same, but a confusing type that is their own.
Austrian German is a bit better and if to listion and keep the mouth shut, very understandable. There are some words though that at least my self have no idea what they are saying, most likely once they figure out at least my self, is a Northern type, they most likely find a great amount of glee and enjoyment to add to my confusion {Bless their hearts..} Not sure how many people actually have figured out the meaning of Österreich, but it means the Eastern Empire, and myself some times wonder if they actually believe that.
After some years past whilst taking a motorcycle trip to Austria, whilst stopped at the border crossing to show my visa, the officer once to see my number plate, become quite unpleasant. How many places do you search on a motorcycle? My camera/a cloth luggage bag of cloths and a few personal items all tied down on the back rack.
Karl
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Post by pieter on Nov 22, 2019 16:53:41 GMT -7
Karl,
It is funny that 'Easy German' on YouTube has one episode dedicated to Austrian words Germans don't understand.
Cheers, Pieter
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Post by pieter on Nov 22, 2019 17:02:45 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Nov 22, 2019 17:20:41 GMT -7
Karl,
Austria wasn't and isn't my favorite country either. My grandmother was in Mauthausen there and I read about the terrible things she experienced there. The top 2 nazi's in the Netherlands Arthur Seyss-Inquart and Hanns Albin Rauter were Austrian. Adolf Hitler was an Austrian. Top SS officers were Austrian who were willing executioners of the Holocaust were Austrians; Ernst Kaltenbrunner, Odilo Globocnik, Alois Brunner and Karl Silberbauer who arrested Anne Frank in Amsterdam in 1944. For a long time I considered Austria a Brown (the color the Sturm Abteilung, SA) country. I found Vienna a cold city in the summer of 1994 but loved the Ski resort Saalback Hinterglem, Loved one brunette Austrian ballet/dance student at the art academy. She was very elegant, charming and funny. But that was just an individual.
Austria is a weird country with it's heritage of the Habsburg empire, the Austrian-Hungarian double monarchy, the Austrofascist and Austromarxist ideologies and the large part Austrian Nazi's had in the larger Third Reich regime Austrians had a large part. Old Nazi's had a larger influence in Austria than in Germany in my opinion. But present day Austria is different that Austria 80, 70 or 25 years ago. So, I can't judge present day Austria. Love the Alps, liked an Austrian dancer, like Austrian art and some Austrian composers, tv series and movies.
Cheers, Pieter
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Post by pieter on Nov 22, 2019 17:21:08 GMT -7
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