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Post by suzanne on Dec 27, 2005 19:57:25 GMT -7
For Nancy and Jim and others who'd been helping me and following with me last month: As promised, my parents gave me a big pile of old family (mother's side) photos, documents, etc. which I'd been asking for for a long time, and which they finally sat down with and organized/copied. So I have good news and....well..not bad news, but frustrating news: First the good news: I now have a great collection of photos, many of which I'd never seen before, of my mother's parents (mainly her father) and their parents and siblings, etc. and a litte more background on my mother's father's Hungarian family. There is more Hungarian in my background than previously thought! My dad got busy with his new color scanner/copier and made nice, acid-free reproductions of these fragile photos, as well as a family tree that my mother's father had put together. I will start a genealogy scrapbook. I now have a little more info on my grandparents, and as for those Ellis Island records that I had found that may or may not have been my grandmother: they are hers! I have other records as well: my grandparents' marriage certificate, their passports, naturalization certificates, even the Russian ID my grandfather had when he was a Russian WWI POW! Also, later this week before my parents fly back home, I am going to sit down and videotape my mom talking about the photos and what she knows, to have as an additional genealogy record, and to help consolidate for me this huge amount of info. Now the frustrating part: as for the Polish side of the family (my mother's mother's family), I think I've hit a dead end for now. My mother's mother's last name is Lachovits, which I think is a Hungarified spelling of a Polish name, since it's definitely not a Hungarian one. But we do not know where my grandmother's father (or his father) was born or the exact DOB. My grandmother had written a bit of family history down, wherein she describes her grandfather as a "businessman from Krakow" who settled in northern Hungary, but we don't have his place or date of birth. So I'm a bit stuck trying to make any kind of Polish connection. Eventually, I may wind up having to hire someone abroad who does genealogy research. I think what I need now is some copy of my grandmother's birth certificate (if there even is such a thing) or some kind of birth record that would list her parents' exact DOBs. But I'm not sure if such exact records were kept back then. Even so, I'm still thrilled to have what I have.
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nancy
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Post by nancy on Dec 28, 2005 8:44:25 GMT -7
Suzanne,
Wow! You do indeed have a real treasure trove with all the photos and documents from your maternal grandfather's history. What a gift! Absorbing this info and studying the photos should keep you busy for a while!
Regarding your maternal grandmother and her family: figuring out the place he (they) were born is the key, and maybe the year they were born.
Perhaps the record of "businessman from Krakow" is the clue you have to pursue. That would be your great-great-grandfather? Roughly what year would that be?
An exact DOB is really tricky - as I have found in my own research. You will most likely not get the exact date until you find the parish record book where it is recorded. Records of briths, marriages and deaths were kept per order of the various governments that occupied Poland, these were first recorded by the parish priests in big black ledger books.
But people's recollection of their birth dates seems to have been somewhat fluid, and given the custom of celebrating namesdays rather than birthdays makes it even more confusing. For example, my maternal grandfather's birth year was given as anywhere from 1867 to 1871 in various US records. One grandmother celebrated her birthday (and it was so recorded on her memorial card) as July, but it turned out she was born in April.
You are off to a great start, though, and I will be interested to hear more as you make progress.
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piwo
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Post by piwo on Dec 28, 2005 11:30:15 GMT -7
I'd try the spelling Lachowic as well. What you show is a Polish phonetic spelling in English most likely. I tried this spelling at Ellisisland.org just for grins, and got two hits (from Russia, which a Pole would be shown as for the 1890's). And maybe try spelling it Łachowic and see where that goes. Names do have a way of changing phonetically. My grand mother was born Harasim, though the H was dropped when she got here, and it was Arasim. My mother was born Pachucka, and a near phonetic spelling appeared on her documents soon after of Pahuska. Good luck, you've already done some nice work!
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Post by jimpres on Dec 28, 2005 11:41:15 GMT -7
Suzzanne,
Scan those photos if you can and burn a CD/DVD of them for later use as origionals. Your grandmother birth certificate is somewhere. My grandfathers born 1880 was in Russian. Found it in Skrwilno and the Bydgoszcz Archives.
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Post by suzanne on Dec 28, 2005 16:40:49 GMT -7
Nancy, Interesting info re: unclear records of DOB. Also, I never thought about how the nameday taking precedence over the birthday would cause confusion about birthdates.
Here's exactly where I'm stuck: my grandmother's father was Karoly Lachovits, born in 1867 (day, month and place of birth not known), and it's his father that would've been the one supposedly from Krakow. But I don't even know his first name, and I can only guess his date of birth (say, 1830-1845 or so). Karoly is buried in a cemetery in Bardejov, Czech Republic, along with my grandmother's mother, and I don't know if their tombstone lists their dates of birth.
I would love to get a picture of the tombstone, get a copy of their marriage record and get a copy of my grandmother's birth certificate or parish birth record. Ideally, I'd also love to get copies of any professional records pertaining to Karoly: he was a circuit judge and I'd love to find out exactly where he practiced and where he studied law. That may or may not help me geneologically; it would just be an interesting piece of family history to have.
Piwo, Thanks for the alternate spelling suggestion. I have also wondered if the name was ever spelled Lachowitz. I am keeping these spellings in mind as I do research.
Jim, Yes, I agree, putting this on a CD is the next step. I will mention this to my dad; he would probably be interested in doing this.
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nancy
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Post by nancy on Dec 28, 2005 16:58:04 GMT -7
My trusty book on Polish surnames says thsi: Lach from lach "Pole" (name used by eastern Slavs), also seen as a short form of Czech Ladislav. In 1990 there were the following numbers of people with surnames: Lach (8991), Lachacz (7), Lachajczak (3), Lachcik (120), Lachowicz (5131), Lachowski (3804), Lackowski (4665), Laczkowski (43), Lah (4) If I were you ( ) and I knew the Czech cemetery where Karoly and ggrandmoter were buried, I would go there, and/or hire a local researcher/guide, and locate the tombstones and hopefully the records in the associated parish. That is a tremendous clue! Also, since Karoly was an educated man, and a judge, I would think that tracing him would be far easier (more records, etc.) than trying to find one of the many humbler folk who did not leave such a mark.
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piwo
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Post by piwo on Dec 28, 2005 18:50:47 GMT -7
The "c" in Polish makes the "ts" sound, that's why I suggested it. Most of the other combinations that make that sound are just English phonetics. Nancy recommended the "cz" angle as well, which doesn't make the same sound, but is so close, you never will know! Try them all, it's really the only way to cover all your bases. Can't wait for more good news!
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Post by suzanne on Dec 29, 2005 18:29:37 GMT -7
If I were you ( ) and I knew the Czech cemetery where Karoly and ggrandmoter were buried, I would go there, and/or hire a local researcher/guide, and locate the tombstones and hopefully the records in the associated parish. I would love to go there in person, but that will unfortunately have to wait til my kids are older. But I will do what I can in the meantime from here. Thanks for the background info from the surname book!
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nancy
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Post by nancy on Dec 29, 2005 20:21:42 GMT -7
I really think there is a goldmine waiting for you in Czech. Maybe you can scout out a local researcher? There surely are some online groups that can make some recommendations.
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Post by suzanne on Dec 30, 2005 8:34:22 GMT -7
Yes, I will send out feelers and look into local researchers. I was mistaken when I said Czech Republic; Bardejov is actually in Slovakia. I always confuse those two - I still think of them collectively as Czechoslovakia!
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nancy
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Post by nancy on Dec 30, 2005 11:27:40 GMT -7
Bardejov is actually in Slovakia. When Kai the Slovak gets back from wherever he is, maybe he will have some suggestions for you.
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nancy
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Post by nancy on Dec 30, 2005 16:44:44 GMT -7
Suzanne, while playing in eBay I saw this book and the name reminded me of you! Lacko Folk CostumesThe description is interesting. PS. I recently purchased two books from this fellow in Poland, waiting for them to arrive.
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Post by suzanne on Dec 30, 2005 19:11:29 GMT -7
Nancy, I was wondering where Kai was - back in November, when I was trying to puzzle out the Ellis Island passenger log, it was he who guessed that "Bardios" was Bardejov!
Thanks for the costume book link. Looks like a beautiful volume. I have always loved studying historical and traditional costumes.
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nancy
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Post by nancy on Dec 30, 2005 19:14:05 GMT -7
Kai went to some snowy place in -Ohio? - for Christmas. Hopefully he will be back with us soon.
The book looks great, doesn't it? There are several in the series. I want them all!!
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Post by kaima on Dec 30, 2005 22:15:55 GMT -7
Yes, I will send out feelers and look into local researchers. I was mistaken when I said Czech Republic; Bardejov is actually in Slovakia. I always confuse those two - I still think of them collectively as Czechoslovakia! Hello Suzzannem - This is Kai the Slovak healthier than ever after being treated to some of my sister's stuffed cabbage over the holidays. I am still in Ohio, returning to Alaska SUnday, but if you are looking for Slovak geneology resouces, sign up for the forum on Delphi. Right now I am logged in at forums.delphiforums.com/iarelative/messagesso try them or wind your way in from forums.delphiforums.com/to "Genealogy - Czech and Slovak Republic" those guys really know their stuff. I am a historian and proved it by some partial success in Pittsburgh and the Stuebenville Ohio area this time. But it is a learning process. Wow, is driving in Pittsburgh in the dark an adventure! Kai the Living
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