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Post by Jaga on Aug 11, 2022 22:15:27 GMT -7
It is very sad, it happened at least 2 weeks ago. River Oder (Odra) is the boarder river between Poland and Germany. Too sad and too little was done to prevent it.
www.reuters.com/world/europe/dead-fish-river-oder-polishgerman-border-spur-contamination-probe-2022-08-11/
WARSAW, Aug 11 (Reuters) - Tonnes of dead fish have been hauled out of the River Oder, which flows along part of Poland's border with Germany, and officials warned people not to enter the water while the Polish government pledged to investigate possible contamination.
Volunteers and anglers have removed at least 10 tonnes of dead fish from the 200-kilometer stretch of the river north of Olawa in southwest Poland, Przemyslaw Daca,head of State Water Holding , said on Thursday. Daca, whose agency manages Polish national waters, called the situation a gigantic ecological catastrophe.
Environmental authorities said they notified prosecutors about potential contamination of the country's second longest river. Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki vowed to punish those responsible.
Dead fish can be found 300 kilometers north of Olawa, Ewa Drewniak, a biologist working with opposition group Civic Coalition, told Reuters on Thursday, accusing the government of not responding quickly enough. "Dead fish have been flowing in the Oder for the past two weeks and people have not been informed about it, I've seen scores of people bathing in the river a week and a half ago, they were not aware of the danger, this is scandalous," she said.
Regional environmental protection authorities in Wroclaw said Oder water samples taken on July 28 showed an 80% probability that they contained mesitylene, a toxic substance, although this was not present in samples taken after Aug. 1.
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Post by karl on Aug 12, 2022 8:51:31 GMT -7
Jaga
What a terrible situation of such a strong chemical resulting spill. As far as I know, Mesitylene is a strong solvent used in the electronics industry. It would appear this as a clue for which ever such industry is up stream as a source.
Even though the source is to be discovered, none the less, the damage has been done with the kill off of fish and what ever wild life that was effected.
Karl
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Post by pieter on Aug 12, 2022 17:12:42 GMT -7
Jaga/Karl,
In November 2018 thousands of dead fish were found in the Berkel river between Lochem and Almen in the east of the Netherlands
Fact is that all over Europe rivers are dirty, polluted and toxic due to Industrial waste water and pesticides used by farmers. And all over Europe you have accidents with waste water from Industries that pollute the water by accident or by illegal dumping of waste water. In the Netherlands a man died a few years ago of swimming in the Ijssel river, due to the pollution of that water.
In November more than 400,000 liters of polluted water from the FrieslandCampina factories in Borculo and Lochem, muncipalities in the province of Gelderland in the Eastern Netherlands lowed into the Berkel river every hour. Caused by a rupture in a pressure pipe. There were thousands of dead fish.
PieterSource: www.tubantia.nl/achterhoek/afvalwater-stroomt-in-berkel-en-doodt-duizenden-vissen~af80be35/?referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F
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Post by Jaga on Aug 12, 2022 22:36:52 GMT -7
Pieter, Karl,
yes, Western Europe has dirty rivers but not that dirty like Easterm Europe. Besides, if this was not an accident tons of fish would still be alive in a dirty water, but they are not, a catastrophic change....
In a way I am glad this happen on the boarder with Germany since they would demand accountability
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Post by pieter on Aug 13, 2022 4:34:10 GMT -7
Jaga,
Jaga, indeed Western Europe and other parts of Europe and the world have dirty rivers. Probably not as dirty like Center European and Easter European rivers. Maybe it has to due to due to Balcerowicz Plan (Polish: plan Balcerowicza), "Shock Therapy" Poland became highly industrialized and Modernised during the ninenties and due to it's low wages and trained skilled personal attracted a lot of foreign Industries and created new Polish Industries. But part of the Old heavily polluted Czech-East-Germany(GDR/DDR) Poland traingle of the Comecon/Warsaw Pact era stayed in tact. Old chemical, coal and brown coal industries. We don't know yet whom caused this disastrous mesitylene pollution, but what we do know is that Mesitylene is a colorless liquid with sweet aromatic odor. It is a component of coal tar, which is its traditional source. It is a precursor to diverse fine chemicals. The mesityl group (Mes) is a substituent with the formula C6H2Me3 and is found in various other compounds. So some Industries along the Oder (Odra) must be the guilty ones and the Polish government like your article said pledged to investigate possible contamination. They will have to scan the shores of the Oder (Odra) for drain pipes, underwater shutters, and dumoing places where trucks, drainage systems will have caused the problem. And then they will have to force these companies to install Water Treatment Plants, fine mesh strainer and other measures to stop the pollution. If it is a cost situation there must be a Public private cooperation to solve this issue for instance with state Water Treatment Plant subsidies. This happened now, but will happen again if nothing will be done about the root cause.
It is indeed a catastrophic change and these tons of fish is a loss for the river and also a loss for local the local food chain, in the sense of river fishing.
Cheers,
Pieter
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Post by Jaga on Aug 14, 2022 4:12:23 GMT -7
Apparently the first signals of poisoned fish appeared on July 26 in the South. Local counties were alarming governmental sections responsible for environment, rivers about the problems. When this poison spread further to the North, more towns reacted, some were sending alarming letters to higher government. Still this info was ignored until August 11, when it was too late to keep it quiet. They still did not identify what causes it, although I thought they did... but these are only speculation. www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62536918Officials in Poland and Germany are trying to work out the cause of a mass fish die-off along the Oder river, which runs between the two countries. Thousands of dead fish have been appearing along hundreds of kilometres of the river since late last month. It is thought that a toxic substance entered the water, although the exact chemical remains unknown despite tests.People have been told to avoid the river amid warnings of an environmental catastrophe from the German government. But authorities in both countries have been accused by activists of failing to work together to quickly respond to the disaster and protect humans. On Friday, Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki sacked a pair of environmental officials over their handling of the incident. He explained that the problem had initially been assumed to be a "local" one - but it later revealed itself to be "very large" in scale.
The river could take "years" to recover, he added.Mr Morawiecki suggested that "enormous quantities of chemical waste" had been dumped in the waterway, with no heed for the risks for wildlife.German Environment Minister Steffi Lemke called for a comprehensive investigation of the incident, saying authorities were working "flat out" to work out the cause. |
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Post by pieter on Aug 14, 2022 7:58:38 GMT -7
Jaga,
It is not only very sad for the Poles and Germans who live near the river. I know from the Netherlands that people who live near the river enjoy the river, sail the river, windsurf on the river, row on the river with rowing boats, go with canoes on the rivers, swim in the rivers, fish in the rivers, picknick at the river shores, and have a lot of other commercial, recreational, traditional, watermanagement, customs related things around the river.
If a river is heavily polluted, dead and contaminated and 'prohibited area' and people turn away from this river banks, the river itself and river managament it has not only tremendous health, environmental (ecological) and cultural consequences but also Financial and Economical consequences. People avoid that river area now, river Cruises will be stopped, tourism along the river bank will stop, Horeca (Hotels, Restaurants, Café's, pubs), rent companies for river boots, Canoes, rowing boats, surfing boards for Überschwemmungsgebiete (Uiterwaarden), I don't know the English word for that, the smaller versions of floodplains or bottomlands. These floodplains, bottomlands, Überschwemmungsgebiete (Uiterwaarden) along the rivers are often like little lakes.
Near Arnhem I often swim in the Rosandepolder between Oosterbeek en Arnhem which is an Uiterwaarden (Überschwemmungsgebiet), like a small floodplain or bottomland. I am sure Jaga, that the Oder river, the Odra rzeka, will have these Uiterwaarden (Überschwemmungsgebiete), small or larger floodplains or bottomlands as well. The Rosandepolder between Oosterbeek en Arnhem which is an Uiterwaarden (Überschwemmungsgebiet) of the Rhine River, like a small floodplain or bottomland of the Rhine river. The Rosandepolder between Oosterbeek en Arnhem which is an Uiterwaarden (Überschwemmungsgebiet) of the Rhine River, like a small floodplain or bottomland of the Rhine river. The Rosandepolder between Oosterbeek en Arnhem which is an Uiterwaarden (Überschwemmungsgebiet) of the Rhine River, like a small floodplain or bottomland of the Rhine river.Of course the largest catastrophe and tragedy of this terrible development is the fact that it is an environmental catastrophe. We people are bad care takers, Land agents and Water managers in this case. You point at it as a Center European and Eastern-European problem, I if I may so look at it from a larger European continental perspective and see a Continent with a huge environmental pollution due to heavy industries, Air traffick, Pesticides which are used in agriculture, and especially our Chemical-, Coal- and Brown coal industries which are extremely pollutive. We can point at the Americans and Chinese as polluters, but we first should look at ourselves and that pollution takes place since the Industrial revolution. But before that in the Middle ages and centuries ago countries like the Netherlands and Spain which had huge forests were deforested by the mass cutting of trees for our Dutch and Spamish (Armada) fleets. I am not an environmental fanatic, nor a Great Reset or Sustainable development goals kind of guy, but the cause of this problem with the the Odra rzeka, the Oder river, is a human one. No one limits or controls humans. We have to stop poisoning our environment, stop putting chemicals in our water and really think about sustainable goals in a realisitc, pragmatic and democratic way. Not in the way the World Economic Forum does wit their Great Reset, not in the way the United Nations do it with their 17 Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs). You have to find local, regional/provincial (in the Dutch case, state level in the German and American case), national, European and international solutions to these pollution, toxication, environmental problems. Today the polarization and division stands in the way of solutions.
Cheers,
Pieter
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Post by pieter on Aug 14, 2022 8:18:38 GMT -7
Jaga,
This dumping of "enormous quantities of chemical waste" is actually a very grave, serious crime against the environment, animal life and human life. This is really terrible and I hope that not only the Polish and German governments will combat these Corporate criminals, these chemical waste criminals, these profit and cheap waste disposal thinking people, but also the Dutch, Belgian, Czech, Slovak, Hungarian, Austrian, Swiss, French and other administrations, because this is a European and international problem.
It is a 'Cost' problem, a side effect of Industrial production, competition, the huge costs of Hazardous waste waste management and thus the processing of various types of Industrial chemical waste. In various countries Industries and pollutive large farm companies are the large polluters, because they want to get rid of chemical waste as quick and cheap as possible and illegal dumpings of chemical waste like at the Odra rzeka/the Oder river is not uncommon.
The problem is that the processing of various types of Industrial chemical waste and thus collecting and thus the detoxification process of that chemical waste is an expensive business, and requires very advanced techniques. Industrialists, entrepreneurs, business people, investors, bankers, stock brokers, employers and employees want a large revenue, a profit as high as possible and as little as possible costs in the production process of products. The costs of waste is a problem and so with that the illegal dumping of contaminated, waste water.
Pieter
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Post by Jaga on Aug 14, 2022 20:27:57 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Aug 15, 2022 0:22:11 GMT -7
Has the Czech part of the River the same problem with dead fish, and might the problem partly originates from the Czech Republic 🇨🇿?
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Post by Jaga on Aug 22, 2022 19:58:28 GMT -7
Pieter, probably not. It was in the upper part of Odra but on the Polish site. Also severe drought does not help. They found some golden algae there.
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Post by Jaga on Aug 26, 2022 21:35:22 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Aug 27, 2022 3:48:53 GMT -7
Jaga,
Poland needs to reform, change and get rid of Communist and Post-communist past. It is a modern nation now. They should abopt the German high safety standards. Poland has the potential, ambition and the will to become a First World country and therefor should abandon Third world or Second World phases it went through. Corruption on the middle political level of the government should be rooted out, it doesn't belong in a civilized, democatic country. If not in time people will resist and fight against the corrupt system like they did in the 2017–2019 Romanian protests against government corruption or the 2020–2021 Bulgarian protests which ere a series of demonstrations that were being held in Bulgaria, mainly in the capital Sofia, as well as cities with a large Bulgarian diaspora, such as Brussels, Paris, Madrid, Barcelona, Berlin and London. The protest movement was the culmination of long-standing grievances against endemic corruption and state capture, particularly associated with prime minister Boyko Borisov's governments, in power since 2009.
By the way Jaga, personally I do not believe that Poland is a Third World country, but more a country with a mix of First World and Second World elements due to it's Polish Peoples Republic (1947–1989) past.
The Second World was a term used during the Cold War for the industrial socialist states that were under the influence of the Soviet Union. In the first two decades following World War II, 19 communist states emerged; all of these were at least originally within the Soviet sphere of influence, though some (notably, Yugoslavia and the People's Republic of China) broke with Moscow and developed their own path of socialism while retaining Communist governments. Most communist states remained part of this bloc until the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991; afterwards, only five Communist states remained: China, Cuba, Laos, North Korea and Vietnam. Along with "First World" and "Third World", the term was used to divide the states of Earth into three broad categories.
Poland doesn't fit into the Third World which was normally seen to include many countries with colonial pasts in Africa, Latin America, Oceania and Asia. It was also sometimes taken as synonymous with countries in the Non-Aligned Movement. Poland was part of the Warsaw Pact and Commecon and thus an aligned nation and part of the Second World. Today it is considered to be part of the First World as a democratic (Parliamentarhy democracy), Free and Capitalist country. But it certain stil has some old elements of it's old Second World Communist and Polish socialist past.
Jaga, in my (Pieter's) perspective pollution due to corruption, nepotism, maybe bribing of local/regional controllers must be wiped out like any corruption, bribing, Clientelism, nepotism and fraud. I think that it is this old mentality, shabbyness, indifference and loocal/regional corporate (private) and public political interests caused this problem. They wanted to reduce the cost of waste processing, by dumping that pollutive disastrous mesitylene waste water or maybe the pure colorless liquid with sweet aromatic odor which Mesitylene is. It is a component of coal tar, which is its traditional source. It is a precursor to diverse fine chemicals.
Mesitylene is mainly used as a precursor to 2,4,6-trimethylaniline, a precursor to colorants. This derivative is prepared by selective mononitration of mesitylene, avoiding oxidation of the methyl groups.
Mesitylene is used in the laboratory as a specialty solvent. In the electronics industry, mesitylene has been used as a developer for photopatternable silicones due to its solvent properties.
The three aromatic hydrogen atoms of mesitylene are in identical chemical shift environments. Therefore, they only give a single peak near 6.8 ppm in the 1H NMR spectrum; the same is also true for the nine methyl protons, which give a singlet near 2.3 ppm. For this reason, mesitylene is sometimes used as an internal standard in NMR samples that contain aromatic protons.
Uvitic acid is obtained by oxidizing mesitylene or by condensing pyruvic acid with baryta water.
The Gattermann reaction can be simplified by replacing the HCN/AlCl3 combination with zinc cyanide (Zn(CN)2). Although it is highly toxic, Zn(CN)2 is a solid, making it safer to work with than gaseous hydrogen cyanide (HCN). The Zn(CN)2 reacts with the HCl to form the key HCN reactant and ZnCl2 that serves as the Lewis-acid catalyst in-situ. An example of the Zn(CN)2 method is the synthesis of mesitaldehyde from mesitylene.
Mesitylene is a major urban volatile organic compound (VOC) which results from combustion. It plays a significant role in aerosol and tropospheric ozone formation as well as other reactions in atmospheric chemistry.
Deliberately, criminally, opportunistically, greedily, narcisticaly and due to powerhunger and megalomaniacal tendencies polluting a river and killing fish, other animals and hurting people indirectly is a grave crime which must be dealt with seriously. These regional administrators and criminal entrepreneurs shouldn't get away with this. If local/regional Prawo i Sprawiedliwość, Solidarna Polska and Republikanie are involved in this the Polish people who voted for them should consider voting for the centre-right Platforma Obywatelska (PO) of Donald Tusk, Elżbieta Polak, Marcin Kierwiński, Ewa Kopacz and Borys Budka, Polskie Stronnictwo Ludowe (PSL) of Władysław Kosiniak-Kamysz, the Centrist .Nowoczesna of Adam Szłapka, the Centre-left Inicjatywa Polska of Barbara Nowacka, the Centrist to Center right Szymon Hołownia's Poland 2050 (PL2050), the leftwing Polska Partia Socjalistyczna (PPS) or the leftwing Unia Pracy (UP) of Waldemar Witkowski from Poznań, the leftwing Socjaldemokracja Polska (SDPL) of Wojciech Filemonowicz, Nowa Lewica of Włodzimierz Czarzasty and Robert Biedroń, the centrist Unia Europejskich Demokratów (UED) of Elżbieta Bińczycka or the leftwing Lewica Razem of Adrian Zandberg, Anna Górska, Bartosz Grucela, Paulina Matysiak, Maciej Szlinder and Joanna Wicha.
If you want to change things and corruption you have various means. Street protests and obstruction of local/regional administrations by blocking government buildings and roads, or you use your democratic vote and vote other parties to power in Warsaw and your regional voivodeships.
Cheers,
Pieter
P.S.- The question Jaga is of course that if and when there is corruption, are the opposition parties less corrupt than the present government political parties. You have clear anti-corruption parties, but do they gain a lot of votes. The problem with corruption is that a lot of people gain from corruption, fraud, bribing, clientelism and nepotism. They sometimes have a job, aposition or money due to corruption. And how do you find out if someone has a job or position due to corruption and nepotism or if his or her position is honestly earned and via democratic or via the legal job application process? How do you know if someone has decent or dirty money. Thus the question is where, when and how do you stop corruption and how do you avoid that it rear it's ugly head again? Dismantling corruption is a long and difficult process and needs a program of tough and firm reforms.
Source: Google search, Wikipedia and news sources.
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Post by Jaga on Aug 30, 2022 21:46:06 GMT -7
Pieter, I agree that Poland is very corrupted especially its ruling class and PIS. I just hold Germans to the higher standards. It is too bad what happened with Oder and I wish I could see Poland getting better in my lifetime.
We will see
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